Hornby restaurant coaches?

[brushman47544]

Mr.Moderator, sir .......... now we have a dedicated Hornby Maunsell Kitchen/Dining First thread, might it be an idea to terminate the existing "Hornby Restaurant coaches ?" thread ??!? .......... or there's going to be a lot of duplicated effort !

 

...or merge them as there's a lot of useful information on the earlier thread.

Edited January 10, 2018 by brushman47544

[Andy Y]

Now merged.

[Headstock]

A couple of photographs from the Robert Carroll collection of the Kitchen Buffet and Composite Dinning saloon at Exeter.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/6492501199/

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/6492500497/in/photostream/

[rovex]

Having trawled the Hornby website it would seems the R4817 Maunsell Kitchen/Dining First No S7946S will be released in BR(S) green, whilst the R4835 Maunsell unconverted Open Second No S1346S will be in BR Crimson and Cream.

 

This seems rather odd as I would have thought that when running these vehicles together most modellers would prefer a matching pair?

 

I was wondering about that. Did these two coaches stay together and get outshopped together, in which case I would expect their liveries to match, even if they didn't match the rest of the coaches in any particular train.

 

Or were they put together when needed and so you be see a kitchen/dining first in Southern livery (or BR(S) green with a dining car in crimson and cream?

[Mallard60022]

On the West of England route they were typically attached/detached at Exeter Queen St/Central. Beyond there was limited demand for meals.

AFAIK the only daily feeding service west of Exeter Central was on the Brighton/Portsmouth and it was an RB (in a 6 Set Mk1s 515 or 516) by 1960. However I seem to remember there was a RC on one of the SR services to/from (perhaps) Ilfracombe but I think that ran unserviced until east of Exeter Central up? Can't remember without checking...,.,sorry.

Philth

[Mallard60022]

Having trawled the Hornby website it would seems the R4817 Maunsell Kitchen/Dining First No S7946S will be released in BR(S) green, whilst the R4835 Maunsell unconverted Open Second No S1346S will be in BR Crimson and Cream.

 

This seems rather odd as I would have thought that when running these vehicles together most modellers would prefer a matching pair?

That's why I bought a batch of the BR Green SOs some time back; well worth it.

Phil

[Mallard60022]

I was wondering about that. Did these two coaches stay together and get outshopped together, in which case I would expect their liveries to match, even if they didn't match the rest of the coaches in any particular train.

 

Or were they put together when needed and so you be see a kitchen/dining first in Southern livery (or BR(S) green with a dining car in crimson and cream?

Graham Muzz would know better than me but I don't think they were necessarily shopped at the same time. Winter Timetables were quite sparse compared to the Summer/Summer Saturdays services, with Diners often spare (Clapham and Exeter/Bournemouth).

Phil

[Dunsignalling]

Having trawled the Hornby website it would seems the R4817 Maunsell Kitchen/Dining First No S7946S will be released in BR(S) green, whilst the R4835 Maunsell unconverted Open Second No S1346S will be in BR Crimson and Cream.

 

This seems rather odd as I would have thought that when running these vehicles together most modellers would prefer a matching pair?

Agreed, but they've already done the SO in green twice so maybe an equally valid question is, why aren't they doing the RF in crimson/cream as well?

 

John

[Wickham Green]

Graham Muzz would know better than me but I don't think they were necessarily shopped at the same time. Winter Timetables were quite sparse compared to the Summer/Summer Saturdays services, with Diners often spare (Clapham and Exeter/Bournemouth).

Phil

Apart from the Buffet Car rebuilds + Dining Firsts/Composites put together, post war, for the Night Ferry and West of England services none of these pairings were even semi permanent so mixed liveries would have been commonplace ...... .

[Headstock]

Robert also has some images of Restaurant cars at Exeter.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/6448220917/in/photostream/

 

and the open third

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/6784650439/

 

and another shot, showing S prefixes and suffixes to the numbers up by the cornice

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/6784645811/

Edited January 10, 2018 by Headstock

[Cor-onGRT4]

Some original travel information, from original Southern booklet arround 1927/28

Edited January 10, 2018 by Cor-onGRT4

[TheSignalEngineer]

Thank you very much for the replies chaps,

 

The lack of lining threw me out on that one, a shame as a post war mixed livery would have suited me down to a T'. I've already done the 1947 Buffet Car conversion of 7864 (the preserved example) and its composite dinner as they where running in the Bournemouth Newcastle service circa 1951. Both retained their malachite green livery but with BR branding, they displaced a Maunsell first class Dinning Car and open third. From a photograph that I have somewhere the Dinning Car would seem to be olive green with Sunshine lettering so I was thinking it might be worth placing an order. However, given that it is likely to be the earlier livery, and if I wished to order, it would be probably be better to go with the BR version and give it a full repaint.

 

Again many thanks.

 

Oh, here is a picture of the Buffet car conversion. Please forgive the slight camera distortion.

When I was researching what ran on SR/WR trains through the midlands in the late 1950s I found 7864 in set 427 which was the Bournemouth - Birkenhead set. 7956 was our other visitor in the Margate - Birkenhead service.

 

Regarding the Hornby coaches 7946 was shown as working with SO 1447 in 1957  between Waterloo and Exeter and again with 1447 in 1959 but I don't know on which service. 

[Synch]

Rather dissapointed at it being a Southern version (with an LNER interest a GWR catering set would have been more use to me for instance), but saying that the fact we have an RTR catering set at all is a terrific step forward, hopefully this is the foot in the door for the rest of the big four, Gresley, Stanier and Collett alike.

[phil-b259]

Rather dissapointed at it being a Southern version (with an LNER interest a GWR catering set would have been more use to me for instance), but saying that the fact we have an RTR catering set at all is a terrific step forward, hopefully this is the foot in the door for the rest of the big four, Gresley, Stanier and Collett alike.

 

If sales of the Southern one go well then you might get your wish. However even then I cannot see Hornby going to all the trouble of making restaurant cars that require lots of accompanying vehicles (e.g. the LMS Kitchen car + 2 different dining saloons), one of the advantages of the Maunsell one is it can run with the open 3rd they have already tooled up.

 

For the GWR a new version of the Collet vehicle previously made would suffice,  while for the LMS a new version of the Period 2 restaurant car originally made by Dapol is the obvious choice. The LNER already have a well detailed Buffet vehicle and although it is not a full restaurant car it is still a catering vehicle of sorts.

Edited January 11, 2018 by phil-b259

[Jack P]

Have pre-ordered the BR/S one with the intention to backdate to Bulleid livery, are there any detail differences that would prevent me from doing so?

[olivegreen]

When I was researching what ran on SR/WR trains through the midlands in the late 1950s I found 7864 in set 427 which was the Bournemouth - Birkenhead set. 7956 was our other visitor in the Margate - Birkenhead service.

 

Regarding the Hornby coaches 7946 was shown as working with SO 1447 in 1957  between Waterloo and Exeter and again with 1447 in 1959 but I don't know on which service. 

 

Thanks for that information, to which I'd add just a slightly off-topic note to anyone wishing to model such a cross-country set: the brake vehicles (compos and thirds, later seconds, of course) in those sets were originally built with British Standard (CA) gangways on the brake ends (and some on both ends), rather than SR/Pullman-type gangways, for ease of connection to LMS and GW stock. (Mike King's book page 69 refers). Whether they retained them in the late fifties is another question. The first/third compartment balance in the composites was also different.

My point being that such a set with the restaurant car and CA gangways would certainly make an unusual and interesting model. (Apologies for sounding like a top tip from Viz!)

 

Now, in the late fifties were these carriages in green or blood and custard? Back to you!

 

Edited to add that the coaches concerned were the high window type and the brake thirds(seconds) were the 4-compartment type.

Edited January 11, 2018 by olivegreen

[Mallard60022]

Have pre-ordered the BR/S one with the intention to backdate to Bulleid livery, are there any detail differences that would prevent me from doing so?

I'll have a look in my King. Do you have that book Jack? Not 100% accurate as with every book, however it is an invaluable resource. You could also ask over on the SR Special Interest Thread. Graham Muzz is a specialist in this sort of info.

Phil

[Mallard60022]

If sales of the Southern one go well then you might get your wish. However even then I cannot see Hornby going to all the trouble of making restaurant cars that require lots of accompanying vehicles (e.g. the LMS Kitchen car + 2 different dining saloons), one of the advantages of the Maunsell one is it can run with the open 3rd they have already tooled up.

 

For the GWR a new version of the Collet vehicle previously made would suffice,  while for the LMS a new version of the Period 2 restaurant car originally made by Dapol is the obvious choice. The LNER already have a well detailed Buffet vehicle and although it is not a full restaurant car it is still a catering vehicle of sorts.

Sadly the LNER/BRER gang will tell you that the absence of RTR Dining Cars is almost absolute.

Phil

[phil-b259]

Sadly the LNER/BRER gang will tell you that the absence of RTR Dining Cars is almost absolute.

Phil

 

But did the LNER have a suitable vehicle?

 

No manufacturer is going to release a restaurant car that requires two or more specialist 'support vehicles' as it were to run with it - simply because of the sales potential (trains that have catering facilities will generally only have one per train - while a single train will contain many CKs, TKs, etc)

 

The Maunsell vehicle meets the 'single vehicle' requirement and so does the Period 2 ex Dapol offering. I'm not sure about the Collect vehicle, but its plausible as a 'single vehicle' setup.

[Mallard60022]

When I was researching what ran on SR/WR trains through the midlands in the late 1950s I found 7864 in set 427 which was the Bournemouth - Birkenhead set. 7956 was our other visitor in the Margate - Birkenhead service.

 

Regarding the Hornby coaches 7946 was shown as working with SO 1447 in 1957  between Waterloo and Exeter and again with 1447 in 1959 but I don't know on which service. 

The SR Ops were creatures of habit and those pairings ran together for years according to what I have read and seen. However in my 1961 CWN Supplement for June to September 1961, 7946 was paired with 'SO' (no ID for the SO) on the  MO10.17 to Waterloo, WO10.45 Basingstoke Salisbury Exeter and FO13.28 Central to Ilfracombe; SO Ilfracombe 12.noon to Waterloo & Sunday 16.00 Waterloo to Exeter.

Phil

[Mallard60022]

But did the LNER have a suitable vehicle?

 

No manufacturer is going to release a restaurant car that requires two or more specialist 'support vehicles' as it were to run with it - simply because of the sales potential (trains that have catering facilities will generally only have one per train - while a single train will contain many CKs, TKs, etc)

 

The Maunsell vehicle meets the 'single vehicle' requirement and so does the Period 2 ex Dapol offering. I'm not sure about the Collect vehicle, but its plausible as a 'single vehicle' setup.

Can't answer that but when talking to the Jolly Controller of Peterborough North yesterday he was mentioning one or two Gresley Coaches that were universal (in 1958). Can't remember the Diagram though, sorry.

Phil

[Wickham Green]

But did the LNER have a suitable vehicle?

 

No manufacturer is going to release a restaurant car that requires two or more specialist 'support vehicles' as it were to run with it - simply because of the sales potential (trains that have catering facilities will generally only have one per train - while a single train will contain many CKs, TKs, etc)

 

The Maunsell vehicle meets the 'single vehicle' requirement and so does the Period 2 ex Dapol offering. I'm not sure about the Collect vehicle, but its plausible as a 'single vehicle' setup.

Gresley built some lovely triplet articulated kitchen / diniing sets .................................. which will NEVER appear R.T.R. from anybody ! ( go on-prove me wrong !! )

[TheSignalEngineer]

 

Now, in the late fifties were these carriages in green or blood and custard? Back to you!

 

Edited to add that the coaches concerned were the high window type and the brake thirds(seconds) were the 4-compartment type.

I've not yet found a decent picture of that particular train, but certainly some mongrel sets about, especially on a Saturday. 

 

A colour picture at Stechford in 1959 shows a Black 5 with the first coach being a Maunsell in green.

 

There's a picture on Hatton Bank reputedly 1959 but from the reporting number I would say no later than 1958, which shows a Churchward Mogul with 10 on. I suspect it may have been the Margate-Wolverhampton SO dated working. The first coach is a Blood & Custard Maunsell 4-compartment brake, followed by a Mk1 1 second in green and a B&C Maunsell 6-compartment brake. The  train has high and low window Maunsells mixed with Mk1s and is equally split between green and B&C.

 

Another picture in 1955 shows the Birkenhead - Margate with a Horsebox and Collet 3rd leading then the other three visible coadhes are B&C Maunsells.

[Mallard60022]

Have pre-ordered the BR/S one with the intention to backdate to Bulleid livery, are there any detail differences that would prevent me from doing so?

Jack I have my David Gould Book to hand now. What date are you looking to run your coach? I have quite a bit of info on 7946 from 1946 on.

Phil

Edited January 11, 2018 by Mallard60022

[phil-b259]

Gresley built some lovely triplet articulated kitchen / diniing sets .................................. which will NEVER appear R.T.R. from anybody ! ( go on-prove me wrong !! )

 

Exactly - and I recall some people being really enthusiastic for similar LMS setups in previous wish list polls. As you say such formations requiring 3 bespoke vehicles are unlikely to be a viable proposition for RTR.

 

So I repeat is there a LNER restaurant car that fulfils the 'one vehicle' criteria?