Hornby restaurant coaches?

[Chuffed 1]

The question for me is whether to order the BR/SR version for my 1947 North Cornwall ACE, accept the Hornby BR(S) green as a reasonable Malachite and remove the "S"?

Or postulate that the Maunsell Olive Green version was still running in 1947?

 

 

 

Sounds like way too many catering vehicles for the one each Saturday that would come in on the ACE and be turned and serviced at Padstow (Or were they dropped at Wadebridge?)

.  

 

I believe that latterly at least, the catering pair were dropped at Exeter Central. Considering the splits thereafter it would certainly make operational sense.

[autocoach]

 

The question for me is whether to order the BR/SR version for my 1947 North Cornwall ACE, accept the Hornby BR(S) green as a reasonable Malachite and remove the "S"?

Or postulate that the Maunsell Olive Green version was still running in 1947?

 

 

 

Sounds like way too many catering vehicles for the one each Saturday that would come in on the ACE and be turned and serviced at Padstow (Or were they dropped at Wadebridge?)

.  

 

I believe that latterly at least, the catering pair were dropped at Exeter Central. Considering the splits thereafter it would certainly make operational sense.

 

But in the Summer of 1947 (not in post 1947 BR) times weren't the catering vehicles run through to Padstow on the Saturday down ACE. Wouldn't they then be re-provisioned for the same day up train.

[G-BOAF]

So what's the concensus on the lining? Have Hornby missed it off the livery sample?

Are they doing it unlined (in which case is the prototypical for mainline (as opposed to suburban) olive green coaches?

Or something else

There seemed to be some questioning as to whether the previous maunsell coaches were lined.

YES THEY WERE...

http://www.hattons.co.uk/51189/Hornby_R4537_Maunsell_unconverted_open_third_class_coach_in_Southern_Maunsell_green/StockDetail.aspx

[Graham_Muz]

The lining gradually got simplified during the 1930s, and after about a decade the first restaurant cars would have been due a repaint and would have been repainted, like this, without lining. This represents the car in pre-war or wartime days.

[phil-b259]

The lining gradually got simplified during the 1930s, and after about a decade the first restaurant cars would have been due a repaint and would have been repainted, like this, without lining. This represents the car in pre-war or wartime days.

 

While this may be true it is a rather odd option for Hornby to go for given (i) All the rest of their Maunsell releases (bar the Dunkirk train pack) had lining and (ii) Plain olive is a fairly drab livery and 'pretty' models do seem to sell well

 

Of course plain olive and not even having the simplified' lining of the early 30s is easier and cheaper for the manufacturer to produce, but to do so feels, well a bit like the phrase "spoiling the ship for a ha'porth of tar"

[Wickham Green]

Wouldn't they then be re-provisioned for the same day up train.

........... by a young Rick Stein no doubt !

[Wickham Green]

While this may be true it is a rather odd option for Hornby to go for given (i) All the rest of their Maunsell releases (bar the Dunkirk train pack) had lining and (ii) Plain olive is a fairly drab livery and 'pretty' models do seem to sell well

 

Of course plain olive and not even having the simplified' lining of the early 30s is easier and cheaper for the manufacturer to produce, but to do so feels, well a bit like the phrase "spoiling the ship for a ha'porth of tar"

c'mon guys - the Maunsell green Restaurant Car is based on a photo ( published in Mike King's Southern Coaches bible ) which clearly shows the coach freshly outshopped in UNLINED green ............ that's a fact - though it's unfortunate that Hornby are unlikely to replicate the nice shiny finish ....... and rather odd that they've not chosen to to base their model on a ( more typical ) lined example.

[brushman47544]

But in the Summer of 1947 (not in post 1947 BR) times weren't the catering vehicles run through to Padstow on the Saturday down ACE. Wouldn't they then be re-provisioned for the same day up train.

 

By the time the Saturday ACE reached Padstow, the up train would already be well on its way to Waterloo. Any Restaurant Car reaching Padstow would either have to return the following day the train ran, so the Friday down and Sunday (or Monday?) up ACEs would have had to have included a Restaurant Car as well, or been stabled somewhere for the following Saturday train. Day coaches yes, but would the Southern have done this with a Restaurant Car?

Edited April 24, 2018 by brushman47544

[Graham_Muz]

By the time the Saturday ACE reached Padstow, the up train would already be well on its way to Waterloo. Any Restaurant Car reaching Padstow would either have to return the following day the train ran, so the Friday down and Sunday (or Monday?) up ACEs would have had to have included a Restaurant Car as well, or been stabled somewhere for the following Saturday train. Day coaches yes, but would the Southern have done this with a Restaurant Car?

 

Restaurant cars were usually removed from the west of England services at Exeter Central as the portions of the train were also split for Plymouth and North Cornwall destinations and added there to London bound services

[Alex Thompson]

From what I understand for 7869 was painted in Maunsell Olive Green with full body lining in 34. I think it was possible that it was repainted in or around 38/39 and was out of service in 9/39 and was not put back into service til 45. R4817 should be sold as a Buffet Car in BR Green. R4816 should be sold as SR Maunsell Olive Lined Green.

[Graham_Muz]

From what I understand for 7869 was painted in Maunsell Olive Green with full body lining in 34. I think it was possible that it was repainted in or around 38/39 and was out of service in 9/39 and was not put back into service til 45. R4817 should be sold as a Buffet Car in BR Green. R4816 should be sold as SR Maunsell Olive Lined Green.

 

Mike King's "An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches" book has a picture of 7869 Diagram 2656 Hornby's R4816 (as stated by Wickham Green above) in Maunsell unlined green dated 1940 being returned to Clapham Junction after overhaul. This picture can also be seen on my blog here https://grahammuz.com/2018/01/08/Hornby-announce-2018-range-includes-brand-new-lord-nelson-class-and-maunsell-kitchen-dining-first-catering-coaches/

 

I also have seen the Mike King picture that Hornby are working from for R4817 of S7946S Diagram 2651, in BR(s) Green clearly branded "Restaurant Car' 

 

Therefore Hornby are totally correct in the their livery applications, even if they suit everyone's specific period to start with, but other variants and liveries are available for them to produce  in due course. 

[brushman47544]

I also have seen the Mike King picture that Hornby are working from for R4817 of S7946S Diagram 2651, in BR(s) Green clearly branded "Restaurant Car' 

 

Is this available on the internet or in a book for the rest of us to examine, by any chance?

[Graham_Muz]

Is this available on the internet or in a book for the rest of us to examine, by any chance?

 

Not that I am aware of, a copy can be purchased from Mike King though.

[G-BOAF]

hmm, I might be cancelling my pre-order then. Was hoping it would match my high-window BC and Open third...

Very odd decision not to match it with previous manusell coaches. I don't NEED one as part of any core running set and am prepared to wait for a lined example...

 

Then again, knowing my luck, Hornby will release a lined example using the earlier diagram body... not preserved, so useless for me... ho hum.

Edited April 24, 2018 by G-BOAF

[Mallard60022]

I'm just hoping I last until October so I can admire this really amazing coach (well the first two I've ordered anyway). Who would have thought we would have these available just five or more years ago?

We are blessed.

Phil

[GreenGiraffe22]

Is it not prototypical for Southern carriages to not always all match? Especially in later years, it'll be more pleasing to my eyes to have it unlined with my unlined set but I don't really care if it is lined... Seems like a minor thing to get melodramatic about, but then this is RM Web .

[exet1095]

Just to add my opinion; it will be a wasted opportunity to issue the unlined olive green first. I won’t buy one as my coaches are lined, and as there are only 1,500 unlined sets about (the Dunkirk train pack), compared to however many lined coaches, then to get the money back on their investment it would seem sensible to go for the livery that matches the greatest potential number of sales. Later, it can be issued in drab, for those who collect R numbers, as well as wartime modellers, after its costs have been paid.

[217 RIVER FLESK]

Just to add my opinion; it will be a wasted opportunity to issue the unlined olive green first. I won’t buy one as my coaches are lined, and as there are only 1,500 unlined sets about (the Dunkirk train pack), compared to however many lined coaches, then to get the money back on their investment it would seem sensible to go for the livery that matches the greatest potential number of sales. Later, it can be issued in drab, for those who collect R numbers, as well as wartime modellers, after its costs have been paid.

 

If you think about it, it makes more sense to do the opposite. Simply because people who want one will rush out & buy what ever the first version is to hit the shelves & then repaint it - just in case no more are produced. Later on the more 'popular' version can be released & those who bought the first offering, will then go out & buy a second one.

[rovex]

If you think about it, it makes more sense to do the opposite. Simply because people who want one will rush out & buy what ever the first version is to hit the shelves & then repaint it - just in case no more are produced. Later on the more 'popular' version can be released & those who bought the first offering, will then go out & buy a second one.

 

Presumably to replace their badly repainted first one

[G-BOAF]

If you think about it, it makes more sense to do the opposite. Simply because people who want one will rush out & buy what ever the first version is to hit the shelves & then repaint it - just in case no more are produced. Later on the more 'popular' version can be released & those who bought the first offering, will then go out & buy a second one.

I can understand this 'marketing trick' when releasing a new range. e.g. Duchess not getting a 'standard' maroon one on first release, or not issuing a 'run of the mill' Southern Green MN on first outing.

However when this is supplementing an existing range it is not on, and Hornby has not done this before. See the open Third being released in lined green that matches the other Maunsells. If this is how they work, why wasn't the open third released in plain green, and then the 'more popular' lined green version released later?

Hornby's choice of models suprise me. I'm still waiting for a corridor composite in lined high window green - multiple A and B (?) versions were released with the low window variety... and the composite was missed out of the recent high window lined release last year.

[Dunsignalling]

As a BR(s) modeller, I'll be getting a couple of BR green ones this year, hoping they do the other Diagram in BR livery next year, and salting away a crimson/cream TO against the day when a RF turns up in that livery.

 

Any version that ends up getting discounted will be snapped up for Buffet Car conversions.

 

I doubt I'm alone................

 

John.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[phil-b259]

Mike King's "An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches" book has a picture of 7869 Diagram 2656 Hornby's R4816 (as stated by Wickham Green above) in Maunsell unlined green dated 1940 being returned to Clapham Junction after overhaul. This picture can also be seen on my blog here https://grahammuz.com/2018/01/08/Hornby-announce-2018-range-includes-brand-new-lord-nelson-class-and-maunsell-kitchen-dining-first-catering-coaches/

 

I also have seen the Mike King picture that Hornby are working from for R4817 of S7946S Diagram 2651, in BR(s) Green clearly branded "Restaurant Car' 

 

Therefore Hornby are totally correct in the their livery applications, even if they suit everyone's specific period to start with, but other variants and liveries are available for them to produce  in due course.

 

The only concern with this is if sales are low as a result of Hornby's livery choice, those at HQ may say "well it didn't sell so we won't do anymore"

 

While I am not sure that this has happened with the Schools and King Arthur models it wouldn't surprise me as Hornby has so far only released their Olive Schools in the pre 1933 livery (minus deflectors + E prefix) and their Olive Arthur's in the post 1933 livery (no prefix with smoke deflectors and no sign of Drummond / 6 wheel tenders).

 

Thus while it may be reasonable to assume that other livery combinations may appear in future, there is no garuntee of that and Hornby's record with Olive liveried models has'nt been great.

[G-BOAF]

The only concern with this is if sales are low as a result of Hornby's livery choice, those at HQ may say "well it didn't sell so we won't do anymore"

 

While I am not sure that this has happened with the Schools and King Arthur models it wouldn't surprise me as Hornby has so far only released their Olive Schools in the pre 1933 livery (minus deflectors + E prefix) and their Olive Arthur's in the post 1933 livery (no prefix with smoke deflectors and no sign of Drummond / 6 wheel tenders).

 

Thus while it may be reasonable to assume that other livery combinations may appear in future, there is no garuntee of that and Hornby's record with Olive liveried models has'nt been great.

You've hit the nail on the head, and Hornby have shot themselves in the foot. Why no schools in Olive with deflectors? A classic condition. I sense the original iteration without deflectors was an attempt to 'double up' sales as above, but the result might have been that the baby got thrown out with the bathwater!

[mattingleycustom]

If you think about it, it makes more sense to do the opposite. Simply because people who want one will rush out & buy what ever the first version is to hit the shelves & then repaint it - just in case no more are produced. Later on the more 'popular' version can be released & those who bought the first offering, will then go out & buy a second one.

If you have ever tried applying black/yellow lining to a Southern coach you would know why repainting, or just lining one is a daunting task. I tried it once, never again!

[chrism993]

If you have ever tried applying black/yellow lining to a Southern coach you would know why repainting, or just lining one is a daunting task. I tried it once, never again!

 

Perhaps an opportunity for a 3rd party to produce a full lining overlay / transfer set?