Hornby restaurant coaches?

[Mallard60022]

Exactly - and I recall some people being really enthusiastic for similar LMS setups in previous wish list polls. As you say such formations requiring 3 bespoke vehicles are unlikely to be a viable proposition for RTR.

 

So I repeat is there a LNER restaurant car that fulfils the 'one vehicle' criteria?

Yes, ask Gilbert Barnatt or Tony Wright as I can't answer that. It may not be just one, and that example may have been altered by 1957/58, but there was a Diagram that would be most useful to Gilbert; he told me yesterday.

It might have been the D144 like this 

Photo by Steve Banks; please respect the owner's copyright if there is any.

 

Phil

Edited January 11, 2018 by Mallard60022

[Mallard60022]

Hi

I am working on some southern Maunsell coach sets, and have looked at the Hornby range and they do not seem to make the restaurant coaches? Have they in the past made these?

Darren

6 years on and you get part of your wish fulfilled?

Phil

[phil-b259]

Yes, ask Gilbert Barnatt or Tony Wright as I can't answer that. It may not be just one, and that example may have been altered by 1957/58, but there was a Diagram that would be most useful to Gilbert; he told me yesterday.

It might have been the D144 like this 

Photo by Steve Banks; please respect the owner's copyright if there is any.

 

Phil

 

Intersting, like the Maunsell one it only has a 1st class dining section - could it be coupled to an LNER open 3rd to cater or 3rd class dining customers or would bespoke vehicle be needed?

[Mallard60022]

Intersting, like the Maunsell one it only has a 1st class dining section - could it be coupled to an LNER open 3rd to cater or 3rd class dining customers or would bespoke vehicle be needed?

Pop over to Peterborough North Phil and ask Gilbert. He's a good egg and knows his stuff. I think it was the case, at least in the late 50s, that it was only really the 'Business' type trains and the big, named trains that had decent feeding facilities and those were mainly 1st Class. However I'm probably wrong.

I actually part built a conversion some time back but I wasn't that happy with it and I think a good friend finished it to a high standard for Gilbert. It utilised some 3D printed Kithen Roof Vents from Trice/Shapeways.

ATB

Phil

Edited January 11, 2018 by Mallard60022

[Headstock]

Yes, ask Gilbert Barnatt or Tony Wright as I can't answer that. It may not be just one, and that example may have been altered by 1957/58, but there was a Diagram that would be most useful to Gilbert; he told me yesterday.

It might have been the D144 like this 

Photo by Steve Banks; please respect the owner's copyright if there is any.

 

Phil

 

Phil,

 

they would always operate with a specialized open carriage with some provision for catering laid out. For example RF/TO or RF/RTP. If additional first class seating was required then Semi FO/RF/TO or FO/RF/TO. In both the latter cases the TO could also be an RTP Some RF's in later life became redesignated as RU. There was also later versions with angle iron underframe.

 

Edit

 

Like most Gresley Restaurant Cars they were originaly an all electric beast that couldn't operate far away from the chagrin points on the LNER system. Specialized Anthracite electric Restaurant Cars were built for interregional services.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Headstock

[Wickham Green]

Hornby update on https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/news/the-engine-shed/stop-press-the-Hornby-2018-range-launch/ .............. though the description seems a little confused !

Edited January 12, 2018 by Wickham Green

[Mallard60022]

The more I see those images of the First Diner the more I think wow! Tiny detail differences should allow for several Diagrams to be produced, especially if one can contemplate that the early version could be repainted.

Lovely model by the look of it. Thanks Hornby and anyone involved.

Phil

[olivegreen]

Hornby update on https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/news/the-engine-shed/stop-press-the-Hornby-2018-range-launch/ .............. though the description seems a little confused !

 

Agree - the reference to the double loading doors is bizarre.  As far as I understand from the standard references, the double loading doors were present on both sides of all of these vehicles, serving a cross-passageway between the kitchen and the pantry.

I think what the press release is actually referring to is the passenger doors either side of the saloon end of the coach, which were not present on the original four. Having them on the model gives greater flexibility in variants to be modelled later.

 

…unless I am mistaken!

[Wickham Green]

Agree - the reference to the double loading doors is bizarre.  As far as I understand from the standard references, the double loading doors were present on both sides of all of these vehicles, serving a cross-passageway between the kitchen and the pantry.

I think what the press release is actually referring to is the passenger doors either side of the saloon end of the coach, which were not present on the original four. Having them on the model gives greater flexibility in variants to be modelled later.

 

…unless I am mistaken!

..... indeed ........ it was only on the ( later ) Cafeteria Car conversions that the double doors were suppressed.( I've never sussed out WHY they were inset - Mike King mentions that all the handles were, thus, within the width of the body but so what, they were still classed as Restriction 4 vehicles so they were not free to wander at will ! ............. in common with the saloons, having the END door handles & hinges inset WOULD have had advantages.)

[Cor-onGRT4]

Hornby update on https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/news/the-engine-shed/stop-press-the-Hornby-2018-range-launch/ .............. though the description seems a little confused !

Even more confusing, first they were talking about diagram 2656 in the announcements, now they changed and are concentrating on diagram 2651, but running number SR 7869 belongs to diagram 2656, and the BR running number S7946S belongs to diagram 2651, so Hornby make up your mind, what's its gonna be.

 

Maybe Hornby is a little bit confused about all the changes at the SR 

 

And for the third open in SR olive R 4833 as announced, well no sign of it on Hornby's site the BR version blood and custard instead is on site. 

Edited January 13, 2018 by Cor-onGRT4

[Mallard60022]

I think most of us are confused if we read King or Gould. In the latter, 7869 is noted as being D2656 and D2652 (second must be a typo). Edit as I was wrong!

There is a little detail difference in the window arrangements on the two vehicles as well as shown in the pics on the Hornby site. (Apologies if mentioned before). I'd need to read a lot more carefully to identify if and when the BR version gained the different windows.

Having said this, there is still a great deal of flexibility in Diagrams that can be made from the BR one if it is correct as a D2651, but the window situation worries me now as I don't know what changes were made within the 'just internal rearrangements and fittings' conversions.

Might seem a bit nerdy worrying about these tiny differences and I have to say I'm probably going to be happy with running 3 or 4 of the BR type in appropraite trains, even if they are slightly 'off' details wise, as the product looks like it will be superb. 

Phil

Edited January 14, 2018 by Mallard60022

[Mallard60022]

Having trawled the Hornby website it would seems the R4817 Maunsell Kitchen/Dining First No S7946S will be released in BR(S) green, whilst the R4835 Maunsell unconverted Open Second No S1346S will be in BR Crimson and Cream.

 

This seems rather odd as I would have thought that when running these vehicles together most modellers would prefer a matching pair?

You into repainting. It wouldn't be that hard, however I've not taken one of those apart and I still have not really identified a decent BRSRgreen paint.

Phil

[autocoach]

I have ordered the BR(S) Restaurant First and will "backdate it" to 1947 SR. I use weathering powder to lighten the look of the Hornby BR/SR green. I am not going to change any No Smoking/Smoking window decals. I did the above mod to a BR(S) green Open Second when they first came out and it looks alright.

 

I now have to determine the operational practice with the Summer Saturday 1947 ACE as the addition of the catering cars would make the down train too long  for the Padstow platform unless at the rear end on arrival. I think I read somewhere that catering service wast discontinued at Wadebridge. They would need to be moved to the carriage siding until the return formation is set up.  But would they remain at Padstow and be added to the rear of the up ACE or taken to Wadebridge on one of the intervening trains and added to ACE when it stopped at Wadebridge.

 

Interesting stuff. But as I only have room for a six coach ACE on my layout, probably moot. 

[Headstock]

You into repainting. It wouldn't be that hard, however I've not taken one of those apart and I still have not really identified a decent BRSRgreen paint.

Phil

 

Evening Phil,

 

I've repainted quite a few, relatively easy if you can get the glazing out, if not a case of removing the former identity, masking off and then painting. I also use a product called Biostrip to remove the window decals and those awful white toilet windows.

 

Below is a brake third from set 459 repainted into malachite green from the Hornby version of BR green. Since the photo was taken I found out that set 459 retained the class numbers on the doors at least as late as 1952 . They have now been added as has a proper SR tail lamp.

[MartinTrucks]

I think most of us are confused if we read King or Gould. In the latter, 7869 is noted as being D2656 and D2652 (second must be a typo).

<snip>. 

Phil

 

The history can be confusing. 7864-9 were diagram 2652 1927-built third class dining saloons (no kitchen). They were downgraded in 1930 to general service open thirds and renumbered 1363-8. The released number series (7864-9) was reused on new-build diagram 2656 first class kitchen restaurant cars in 1932.

Martin

[Mallard60022]

Thanks Martin. I have amended my post as I was being dim! I see though that 4 of the D2652s (1365 -8) then were converted in 1947 to D2658 Composite Dining cars Nos 7841 - 4! Such fun.

Phil

[Jack P]

There is a little detail difference in the window arrangements on the two vehicles as well as shown in the pics on the Hornby site. (Apologies if mentioned before). I'd need to read a lot more carefully to identify if and when the BR version gained the different windows.

Having said this, there is still a great deal of flexibility in Diagrams that can be made from the BR one if it is correct as a D2651, but the window situation worries me now as I don't know what changes were made within the 'just internal rearrangements and fittings' conversions.

 

Phil,

 

I too would be really interest to find out when they changed too, if it's any time after 1947 that means I'm going to need to change my pre-order to the olive green one, and then i'll have to re-spray it in malachite, then of course I'll have to do ALL of my coaches! (Although seeing Headstocks respray, it is a very convincing argument to do them all anyway)

 

Fingers crossed.

[MikeTrice]

Yes, ask Gilbert Barnatt or Tony Wright as I can't answer that. It may not be just one, and that example may have been altered by 1957/58, but there was a Diagram that would be most useful to Gilbert; he told me yesterday.

It might have been the D144 like this 

Photo by Steve Banks; please respect the owner's copyright if there is any.

 

Phil

Diagram 10C. 144 had recessed doors.

[Mallard60022]

Phil,

 

I too would be really interest to find out when they changed too, if it's any time after 1947 that means I'm going to need to change my pre-order to the olive green one, and then i'll have to re-spray it in malachite, then of course I'll have to do ALL of my coaches! (Although seeing Headstocks respray, it is a very convincing argument to do them all anyway)

 

Fingers crossed.

Jack, I'd suggest it was when the interiors were modified, however I would suggest you ask people with far more experience than myself. Contact Graham Muzz first and Headstocks may well have the details?

Sincerly

Phil

Diagram 10C. 144 had recessed doors.

Thanks Mike.

Phil

[rustynuts]

Jack, I'd suggest it was when the interiors were modified, however I would suggest you ask people with far more experience than myself. Contact Graham Muzz first and Headstocks may well have the details?

Sincerly

Phil

Thanks Mike.

Phil

 

As an aside there is a heap of info in the book "LNER Passenger Trains & Formation", the Steve Banks and Clive Carter wrote, which explains just about everything on this subject.

 

Paul

[Mallard60022]

As an aside there is a heap of info in the book "LNER Passenger Trains & Formation", the Steve Banks and Clive Carter wrote, which explains just about everything on this subject.

 

Paul

Thanks Paul. It's the SR coaches we are really wanting to know about (well, Jack and myself) but info on the LNER ones I have only in my Coach books as I don't actually need detail for those as I can get it if required from LNER modeller friends.

Phil. 

Edited January 15, 2018 by Mallard60022

[Wickham Green]

Phil,

 

I too would be really interest to find out when they changed too, if it's any time after 1947 that means I'm going to need to change my pre-order to the olive green one, and then i'll have to re-spray it in malachite, then of course I'll have to do ALL of my coaches! (Although seeing Headstocks respray, it is a very convincing argument to do them all anyway)

 

Fingers crossed.

Might I suggest everyone waits for the new HMRS Livery Register before contemplating any malachite resprays ............ the model paint trade still seems to be wedded to the colours depicted in the 1970 Livery Register - which were acknowledged as WRONG in the 1990 Addendum ! ( Those of us in the UK - sorry, Jack, might have seen the correct colours on the intro to Michael Portillo's latest journeys : it's far bluer than you might expect.)  

 

One variation among the Restaurant Cars that Mike King barely mentions ( and Gould probably doesn't touch on either ) is the ventilator over the droplight at the end of the car ... looks to be more common later in life but - as always - a photo of chosen prototype at chosen date will clarify ........................................ or a photo of any prototype at chosen date will determine your choice of vehicle, perhaps !!?!

Edited January 17, 2018 by Wickham Green

[trevor7598]

I hope these two images from ' The Locomotive ' journal of April 1928 will be of interest.

One shows the external and internal arrangement of the kitchen first. The Hornby model

is of a later build, note the absence of entrance doors in the vestibule on this drawing.

 

The other image is of the interior of the neighbouring third class dining car. Hornby have

not modelled this coach, as yet, so their 1933 open third will have to do.

[trevor7598]

I asked a young lady on the Hornby stand at Ally Pally, if I could photograph their 

Maunsell restaurant car sample. She most obligingly took it out of the display case for me.

I notice that this example has ventilator bonnets on the double doors, has anyone got

a photo or information to show weather this is correct or not, maybe some had them.

All my photo's show them without.

From what I could see it's going to be a stunning model !. Just got to be patient.

Edited March 24, 2018 by trevor7598

[MartinTrucks]

I asked a young lady on the Hornby stand at Ally Pally, if I could photograph their 

Maunsell restaurant car sample. She most obligingly took it out of the display case for me.

I notice that this example has ventilator bonnets on the double doors, has anyone got

a photo or information to show weather this is correct or not, maybe some had them.

All my photo's show them without.

From what I could see it's going to a stunning model !. Just got to be patient.

 

7943 has vents while 7869 does not (Mike King's Illustrated History of SR Coaches). Vents are shown in the drawing published in The Locomotive of 1928 as contained in your previous post #148.

 

Agree - If the EP sample is representative, it will indeed be a stunning model!

Regards,

Martin

Edited March 24, 2018 by MartinTrucks