Coach bogie Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Another interesting vehicle in Harris is W130 which is another example to receive GWR/BR hybrid livery. The photograph does not show any sign of branding but the caption states it was branded "Return to Swindon". Swindon seem to have painted several full brakes in this hybrid livery in 1948/early49. Clearly trying to give chocolate and cream a bit of a swansong before the new corporate livery was introduced. Regards, Matt 'Return to Swindon' branding on non passenger vehicles often indicated use as stores vans transporting supplies from the Swindon stores/laundry etc out to all parts of the system. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted November 11, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 11, 2012 Another K42 vehicle with branding is W274W which I have a photo of obtained from Roger Carpenter.He has a stand at Warley too if anyone wants to look for others. The branding on the lined maroon coach is 'Gloucester and Paddington' 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BMacdermott Posted November 11, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 11, 2012 Hello Matt I mentioned in an earlier posting that I hoped to get some more information for you shortly. However, one of the friends I was liaising with (who doesn't read RMweb) tells me he has had an email direct from you. As we don't wish to 'cross wires', he will reply to you direct in due course, and I won't post here. Before 'signing off' though, on page 26 of David Larkin's book, BR General Parcels Rolling Stock - A Pictorial Survey, you will find a picture of W272W in blue (1970). For your milk research, an Alex Swain photo on page 70 of BRILL Annual No.4 shows W117W in lined maroon, branded 'WOOTTON BASSETT AND KENSINGTON MILK TRAIN. HMRS Ref:AEL701 shows Hawskworth W307W branded 'PADDINGTON AND BANBURY MILK TRAIN'. It seems to be taken at the same time and location as the others in the series mentioned earlier. You may like to contact the Kidderminster Railway Museum about possible photos (www.krm.org.uk). Brian Macdermott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Higgs Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Did all K42s have a continuous rainstrip though? Or if they did were they removed soon after construction? Based on photos in Russell, continuous rainstrips were applied to a number of different coach types built in 1937, mostly suburbans. They do not seem to appear after that, so were probably not deemed a success. Chris 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 For your milk research, an Alex Swain photo on page 70 of BRILL Annual No.4 shows W117W in lined maroon, branded 'WOOTTON BASSETT AND KENSINGTON MILK TRAIN. HMRS Ref:AEL701 shows Hawskworth W307W branded 'PADDINGTON AND BANBURY MILK TRAIN'. It seems to be taken at the same time and location as the others in the series mentioned earlier. You may like to contact the Kidderminster Railway Museum about possible photos (www.krm.org.uk). Hi Brian, Thanks for that. I have BRILL annual but it slipped my mind to look through it for full-brakes (although it is a great place for them). The KRM is a great resource and I have used it before. Their archive is quite well indexed so perhaps that is another good lined of enquiry. Regards, Matt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Steam at Swindon have got back to me with the following thumbnails. http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/passenger_brake_van_no_147_for_parcels_train/print/8053029.html http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/passenger_brake_van_no_109/print/8053031.html http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/passenger_brake_van_no_166/print/8053035.html http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/passenger_brake_van_no_95/print/8053037.html 147 is a K41 and is pictured in post-war Hawksworth livery. 109 is the same but seems to have a slightly simplified version of the livery with no brandings discernable. 166 is a K42 and is in chocolate livery. It looks nice but the branding is very route specific (124 would probably be a better alternative). 95 is a K42 in post-war livery and does not appear to have any route branding. If we assume chocolate and cream will be a popular livery then this might be a good one to model as one running number. I do not mind splashing out for higher resolution images if any look particularly useful. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Higgs Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Steam at Swindon have got back to me with the following thumbnails. http://www.steampict...nt/8053029.html http://www.steampict...nt/8053031.html http://www.steampict...nt/8053035.html http://www.steampict...nt/8053037.html 147 is a K41 and is pictured in post-war Hawksworth livery. 109 is the same but seems to have a slightly simplified version of the livery with no brandings discernable. 166 is a K42 and is in chocolate livery. It looks nice but the branding is very route specific (124 would probably be a better alternative). 95 is a K42 in post-war livery and does not appear to have any route branding. If we assume chocolate and cream will be a popular livery then this might be a good one to model as one running number. I do not mind splashing out for higher resolution images if any look particularly useful. These all seem to be photos already found in the Russell books - 109 is from the main book volume 2 and the other three are in Part 2 of the appendix. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 109 is in pre-war choc/cream which is why it has simpler lining. Interestingly the page number is omitted from the index - it's on p186, though there's another in plain brown (in service) on p202 which is indexed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 (edited) These all seem to be photos already found in the Russell books - 109 is from the main book volume 2 and the other three are in Part 2 of the appendix. Ah, thank you. I only have the main volume and not the appendix (maybe I should try and track down a copy). 109 is in pre-war choc/cream which is why it has simpler lining. Interestingly the page number is omitted from the index - it's on p186, though there's another in plain brown (in service) on p202 which is indexed. You are quite right. I did not realise from the dates that the first batch of K41s predated the shirtbutton emblem. Edited November 12, 2012 by Karhedron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Have we managed to find any photos of K41s or K42s in early BR crimson livery? This seems to be the "missing link" in the livery collection. I have seen photos of Hawksworth brakes in Crimson (apparently the later buily vehicles). The only Collett full-brakes I have been able to find photos of in Crimson are K38s and K40s. So far we seem to have the following livery options K41 Chocoloate and Cream, Early 30s livery Chocoloate and Cream, Shirtbutton livery Plain chocolate with shirtbutton Post-war Chocoloate and Cream BR Crimson and Cream BR crimson (? unable to find a prototype so far) BR Maroon BR Blue (? Did any examples survive into BR Blue?) ENPARTS (W185W) Weedkiller K42 Plain chocolate with shirtbutton Post-war Chocoloate and Cream BR Crimson and Cream BR crimson (? unable to find a prototype so far) BR Maroon BR Blue Weedkiller So the K41s have a slightly wider range of liveries while the K42s lasted later and may have been more widespread due to the narrower loading guage. We have identified enough photographs to produce 1 or 2 running numbers of the more popular liveries (which I suspect will be choc'n'cream and Maroon). For me it seems an even toss-up between the 2 diagrams. Both fit equally well on my post-war layout so I am happy with either call. I guess that the only thing that would swing it now is finding photos of a prototype in BR crimson. Does anyone have an oppinion in favour of one diagram or the other? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Higgs Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Ah, thank you. I only have the main volume and not the appendix (maybe I should try and track down a copy). If you can afford them you should. I find them as a reference much better than the main books with almost all diagrams covered. There are quite a few mistakes in there though. The Michael Harris book 'Great Western Coaches' is excellent also. It has a full list of the lots built in the back, but the text also explains in more detail than the Russell books about how the coaches were built. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Higgs Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 K41 BR Blue (? Did any examples survive into BR Blue?) Yes they did. There are photos on the Paul Bartlett site of both diagrams in blue. K41s up to the mid-1970s at least. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 If you can afford them you should. I find them as a reference much better than the main books with almost all diagrams covered. There are quite a few mistakes in there though. The Michael Harris book 'Great Western Coaches' is excellent also. It has a full list of the lots built in the back, but the text also explains in more detail than the Russell books about how the coaches were built. Chris A few of the list details in Harris do not correspond with the actual coach register, but in fairness he did not have access to the information that is now available. From memory the K41/2 details in Harris agree with the carriage register. As mentioned, Russell is full of mistakes and mis-information. The Great Westen Study Group has been running corrections for some time and the list of errors is now quite long. On the subject of blue livery, I used to see th K42's on regular basis in the 1970's in Manchester on parcels duties, alongside Hawksworths, ex LMS and Gresley full brakes usually in blue. The Hawksworths lasted even longer in blue. I worked in Newcastle in 1990 and passed two in Gateshead parcels depot on a daily basis. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Some additions K41 Chocoloate and Cream, Early 30s livery Chocoloate and Cream, Shirtbutton livery Plain chocolate with shirtbutton Plain chocolate with twin shields (Russell vol2 p202, number looks like 182) Post-war Chocoloate and Cream - with both GWR & BR markings BR Crimson and Cream BR crimson (? unable to find a prototype so far) - there's the slight possibilty of lined crimson too - there's a K37 shown in Appendix 2 (W1169W) described as BR all-over brown (?!) but you can clearly see the yellow/black and black/yellow lines above and below the windows - on maroon the waist one would have been yellow/black/yellow. Also the number is at the LH end, so it must be crimson, not maroon). BR Maroon lined BR Blue ENPARTS (W185W) in faded blue, ENPARTS in Olive ADB975157 (formerly W184W) Weedkiller (three versions) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 A few of the list details in Harris do not correspond with the actual coach register, but in fairness he did not have access to the information that is now available. From memory the K41/2 details in Harris agree with the carriage register. As mentioned, Russell is full of mistakes and mis-information. The Great Westen Study Group has been running corrections for some time and the list of errors is now quite long. On the subject of blue livery, I used to see th K42's on regular basis in the 1970's in Manchester on parcels duties, alongside Hawksworths, ex LMS and Gresley full brakes usually in blue. The Hawksworths lasted even longer in blue. I worked in Newcastle in 1990 and passed two in Gateshead parcels depot on a daily basis. Mike Wiltshire The ones in Gateshead (Tyneside Central Freight Depot) were Internal User vehicles, used for storage of equipment- they'd been there since the early 1980s, when I spent some time photographing wagons there, and possibly much earlier. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) I have received an email from John Lewis who is GWR rolling stock steward for the HMRS. This information is reposted here with his kind permission. He has also supplied me with spreadsheets for both K41 and K42. These contain details of the dates some livery versions were applied and also branding carried by particular vehicles. I am happy to forward these spreadsheets by email on request. There are 6 photos of these vans in Russell's GWR Coaches Appendix Vol 2 (refered to as RCA2 here and in the Data sheets) which show some of the early liveries. The Registers indicate when coaches were painted brown in the 1930s and early 1940s, but recording this seems to have stopped about 1942. The data sheets show when gas heaters and associated gas cylinders were provided mostly from 1947. Russell's photos of the K41 vans show these cylinders. It would appear that not all K41 and K42s had them. The K42s all originally had electric heaters, but it would appear that these were insufficient on some trains. Parcels trains including goods rated vans would have been a problem because goods vans did not usually have steam heating pipes. The GWR used oil gas for lighting and some heating, this was replaced on these vans by propane burning equipment from about 1958. I do not know if the gas cylinders were left on the underframe when propane was used, but you may be able to see this if you have a photo from the 1960s or 1970s. A few were painted with yellow "identification panels". These seem to have been on the guard's door. See RCA2 Fig 363. Some were fitted with adaptors for Pullman gangways and Buckeye couplers so they could couple to BR Mk1 coaches and, incidentally, to ex-LNER and SR corridor vehicles with the gangways in use. I have extracted the route brandings from the stock register. These may not be complete and in any event the registers stopped being used c.1962. The word "AND" was usually written like that on coaches, but sometimes an ampersand was used - see RCA2 Fig 374. Some vans had "PARCELS TRAIN BRAKE VAN" on them. Unfortunately this is not recorded in the Register. See RCA Figs 375 and 376. From the mid-1940s all these vans had "LOAD 15 TONS DISTRIBUTED" on the bodysides in small characters. See the pictures in Russell. A summary of the liveries carried by these vans is: The first lot of K41 (101-110) appeared in 1934, but probably before the shirtbutton monogram was introduced, so they would have appeared in brown and cream with a single gold/black line at the waist, and with the "twin cities" shield with G.W.R. above it. At the first repaint they should have been given the monogram. The second lot 111-120 , appeared in late 1934 and so should have appeared in brown and cream with the monogram. The third and fourth Lots, 181-200, were built in 1935 and 1936 and appeared in brown with the monogram. The first two lots of K42 appeared like this too and RCA2 Figs 377 and 378 show this livery. The brown and cream K41s were painted brown in due course from 1936. Russell's A Pictorial Record of GW Caches Part 2, Fig 347 shows a picture of an unidentified K41 in brown livery with the twin shields crest, but no lining or "Great Western". The (Luggage etc) lettering is very difficult to see in this picture. Towards the end of the war, some at least were painted in brown and cream with revised typeface and having the twin shields device again. RCA2 Fig 379 shows this livery. It was not (quite) the final GWR one. 95 was built in Oct 1944 and I suspect this was taken when it was new and not in 1948. The final GWR livery was the Hawksworth (1947) one with double lines at the waist and GREAT [CREST] WESTERN more or less centrally. This is illustrated by RCA2 Fig 376. On nationalization coaches would have continued being painted in brown and cream, but without Great Western identification. Shortly thereafter BR type Gill Sans would have been substituted for the GWR lettering and the coach number would have been painted towards the left hand end with a W prefix. BR's crimson and cream started to be applied to ex-GWR coaches from May 1949. In 1951 the coach number was moved towards the right hand end of the coach but this edict took some time to have effect on the WR. The numbers of GWR design coaching stock now had a "W" suffix as well as the prefix. It is quite possible that some of these brake vans were painted in plain crimson, rather than crimson and cream, but I do not have a photo showing this. In 1956 BR introduced lined "maroon" and some WR named expresses were provided with brown and cream stock. Except for some ex-GWR restaurant cars, only BR Mk1 stock was given this livery, so repaints of K41 and K42 brake vans would have all been in lined maroon. I have photos of W128W and W126W in this livery, the latter is RCTS photo, neg CUL3926. BR's blue/blue & grey livery was introduced in 1965, and repaints K41/2 after this date would have been in blue. Lettering was in white using the Rail typeface. I took a photo of K42 No. 94 in this livery in the 1970s. It had lost its gangways. I do not have a photo of a K41 in blue, but if they lasted until 1973/4 then I would have expected some to have appeared in this livery. Edited November 13, 2012 by Karhedron 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BMacdermott Posted November 13, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 13, 2012 Does anyone have an opinion in favour of one diagram or the other? Hello Matt As you know, John Lewis (with me and others) is a member of The MREmag & RMweb Wishlist Poll Team. in 2012, we only listed the K42 - and that was based on them lasting slightly longer and having the wider availability. However, as you say, it is a very close call as to which would be the better to produce. We have already amended the text for 2013 to list them both. If you would like me to, I can ask for opinions from the MREmag readership (many of whom don't read RMweb). Brian Macdermott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted November 13, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 13, 2012 Hello all, Please allow me once again to register my gratitude for all the help that is being given to us on this project. I think the similarities between the K41 and 42 are such that as long as our model is an accurate depiction of one of them we will be fine. Both lasted a long time, and since the K41s went into service earlier they are looking like the better option. cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I think the similarities between the K41 and 42 are such that as long as our model is an accurate depiction of one of them we will be fine. Both lasted a long time, and since the K41s went into service earlier they are looking like the better option. Hi Ben, Happy to help. I am inclined to agree that the K41 is probably the better option. I have not seen a photo of a K41 in all-over chocolate which was clear enough to determine running number and brandings. However I think that the spreadsheet that John Lewis sent can provide this information as it contains details of brandings as well as dates that they were repainted in chocolate. It is a bit late tonight but I will post a list of proposed running numbers tommorrow for people to give feedback on. Matt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 OK. Here is my suggested list of K41s I have tried to cover as many bases and liveries as possible without too much duplication. This is just a brief list, I will include more details afterwards. 109 Chocolate and Cream 181 Plain chocolate with Shirtbutton 147 Hawksworth Chocolate and cream W142 Crimson and Cream W105W Maroon W107W Maroon W272W Rail Blue ADB975157 Enparts This list is intended as a starting point for discussion rather than being definitive. Any suggestions for additions or alterations welcome. I have included 2 running numbers in choc'n'cream and maroon as I suspect these will be the most popular liveries. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) Here is some more detail of each vehicle. 109 Early 30s GWR choclate and cream livery with white roof, single lining and no branding as shown in this photograph here. http://www.steampict...nt/8053031.html 181 GWR plain chocolate livery with shirtbutton and grey roof. No photograph. This was the first K41 of lot 1535 which all received plain chocolate and grey roof. I chose this vehicle as it is the first in the lot (hence the oldest). Also, according to the information from John Lewis, it was not branded. It should be the same as 124 (apart from the running number). If anyone has a photo of an identifiable K41 in chocolate livery, I would be happy to swap. 147 Post-war "Hawksworth" choclate and cream livery with double lining and grey roof. Branded "Swindon and Carmarthen" as shown in the photograph here. http://www.steampict...nt/8053029.html W142W BR Crimson and Cream livery. This vehicle was branded "Penzance & Kensington Milk Train". I do not have a clear photograph of this vehicle but I believe it is the one shown in the 2 photographs on page 29 of "Great Western Coaches in colour" by Kevin Robertson. If anyone has a clear photo of a crimson and cream K41, again I would be happy to swap. W105W BR Lined Maroon. Branded "Wolverhampton Swindon and Swansea". I have a photo in my private collection. W107W BR Lined Maroon. Branded "Cardiff Plymouth and Weymouth". Photo on page 28 of "Great Western Coaches in colour" by Kevin Robertson. W161 Rail blue. No gangway, as shown here. http://paulbartlett....f411d#h3b2f411d Please note that this is a K42 rather than a K41. The following K41s survived into the rail-blue era but I have been unable to find photos. W140 W141 W146 W154 W158 W159. If anyone has a photo of a geniune K41 in blue then please let me know. ADB975157 Enparts as shown here. Still with gangway by the looks of it. http://paulbartlett....4a464#h1b84a464 Edited November 16, 2012 by Karhedron 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 ADB975157 Enparts as shown here. Still with gangway by the looks of it. http://paulbartlett....4a464#h1b84a464 Yes, both ends. I've got a set of slides (both sides) of this one at Cardiff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted November 15, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 15, 2012 Hello all These suggestions look pretty good to me. We haven't finalised the liveries yet, and I'll wait for further reaction to the suggestions above. But thanks again to all those who are contributing. cheers Ben A. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-CRS Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 All seem okay to me, I'll have the early GWR and BR blue. Also like the Enparts one, hopefully second wave blue with connections. Will probably order at Warley or Poynton (COMMRAIL) in December. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 I have just found a reference to W141 still with gangways at Plymouth in 1973. Unfortauntely there is no photos. This was a geniune K41 (unlike W161). Would this be a better choice for the rail blue option? http://www.dansk-jernbanearkiv.dk/turf/t7307/tur7307.htm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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