Wright writes.....

[Mallard60022]

Posted on behalf of Tony Wright. If I have omitted something I hope he will be able to correct my 'pasting'.

I've noted recently on this thread some comments about Pullman cars and possible combinations. Might I add a few of my own, together with some pictures, please? 

It's wrong to generalise but that's what I'm about to do. In the late-'50s (the time depicted at Peterborough North) the Eastern Region (accepting the NER and ScR as well) ran five Pullman services. These were The 'Tees-Tyne Pullman', 'Yorkshire Pullman', 'Queen of Scots', 'Master Cutler'/'Sheffield Pullman' and 'The Harrogate Sunday Pullman'. The last-mentioned used the same stock as the 'Queen of Scots' (with two fewer cars - please, never coaches or carriages for Pullmans), because the King's Cross-Glasgow service only went that far on the Lord's Day. I believe the ER had a pool of some 40+ cars to make up the services which consisted of...

 

One set of eight cars for the 'Tees-Tyne Pullman', including 'The Hadrian Bar', with brakes at both ends, to provide both Down and Up services.

 

One set of eleven cars for the 'Yorkshire Pullman' with brakes at both ends south of Doncaster, to provide both Down and Up services. Portions came from the East and West Ridings, occasionally with non-Pullman brakes attached for the shorter journeys, say Bradford-Wakefield. The whole lot was finally made up in Doncaster Station before eventually heading south behind the A1 which had brought the Harrogate/Leeds/Bradford portions in. Obviously, the opposite occurred going north.

 

Two sets of seven cars (eight a few years earlier) for the 'Queen of Scots', with brakes at both ends north of Leeds, to provide a separate Up and Down service. Plus a further two cars (of differing types dependent on the period but including at least one Kitchen Car) between King's Cross and Leeds-only - the same two cars being used in both the Down and Up services ALWAYS (I generalise) attached between the loco and the leading brake whether Down or Up. From photographic evidence, at times, the Saturday service seemed to just be two sets of eight cars with brakes at both ends - thus no Leeds-only pair. 

 

One set of six cars for 'The Master Cutler'/'Sheffield Pullman' (occasionally eight), with brakes at both ends, to provide all four return journeys between Sheffield and King's Cross. I think Peterborough North is set just before the introduction of this service in 1958, so it probably doesn't count.

 

One set (I think, because it provided both Up and Down services) of seven cars for the 'Harrogate Sunday Pullman' with two cars outside the leading brake for Leeds-only. As mentioned, this service used the cars from the weekday 'QoS'.

 

The consists of all these trains tended to vary slightly from year to year but, as rule of thumb, it's usual to find a Kitchen Car servicing an adjacent Parlour Car as well as itself, whatever the status - Pullman Third (later Second) Class was way beyond ordinary First Class. All First Class Pullman cars were named and all Third Class Pullman cars were numbered (unless they were specialist Bar cars and so on). The information I've used to make up my trains comes from BR's own carriage-working books or the RO. Beware the latter at times, for some of its observations for Pullman trains don't make sense, human beings having compiled them.

 

Generally, but not exclusively, these major services (prior to the introduction of the Mk.1 Pullmans) were made up of the 1928 all-steel cars built originally for the 'QoS' and as a spare set. These are usually easy to identify for they have no underframe trussing, have prominent roof-rib sections and the brakes have guard's duckets. There were some other cars without trussing, usually brakes without duckets, for these were rebuilds of surplus all-steel Kitchen Cars. Beware, for these often had all the ventilation gear left on the roof making the observer think that, viewing from above, it was still a Kitchen Car. There were several older cars to be found, by this time clad in aluminium to make them appear more modern, but they betrayed their wooden body-status by retaining their heavy underframe trussing and longitudinal rainstrips on the roof. Though there might be a picture of a 12-wheeled Pullman car in service on the ER in early BR days, by the late '50s they were all eight-wheelers. 

 

Many are the pitfalls for the modeller of Pullmans in 4mm (or any scale/gauge). Many cars were rebuilds or re-rebuilds - Preston Park produced what was necessary at the time, whoever the original builder might have been. 

 

So, how to make up ECML Pullman trains for the period in question?

 

Golden Age Pullmans are almost all models of the 1928-built cars, so they're perfect (in appearance) for depicting the trains in question. However, they're heavy and stiff, and therefore require a most powerful locomotive to shift a rake. At the Glasgow Show a few years back one of my DJH A1s hauled a rake (until the hopeless buckeyes started to part) but a Bachmann A1 merely polished its drivers' tyres. They're also hugely expensive, and, because of the quality of finish, stand out in a set for all the wrong reasons.

 

The first style of Tri-ang Pullmans (those depicted crossing the Thames behind a 'Britannia' in early catalogues) are only useful as curiosities. They have elements of the 'Brighton Belle' in them, even if they carried 'South Wales Pullman' boards.

 

The first-style Hornby Pullmans (now part of the Railroad range) also depict the 1928-built cars but the range is limited to a Parlour Brake Third and Parlour First. They also run on too-short bogies and ride far too high. The interiors are just plain white plastic and the roof has an unlikely aluminium finish, though the side surface finish is quite nice. As donor vehicles, they're perfect, particularly if picked up second-hand.

 

Later (current) Hornby Pullmans. Though the range is extensive and the cars are beautifully made, they're models of earlier cars (wooden-bodied/aluminium-clad) with trussing and longitudinal rainstrips. Thus, though one or two in an ECML set might be just acceptable, a whole train made up of them just wouldn't happen - though that hasn't prevented oodles of layout owners from doing just that. Perhaps, on first introduction, the 'Master Cutler' set had a greater proportion of the older-style cars, but this was the first recipient of the Mk.1 Pullmans, anyway. Interestingly, none of various renditions of RTR cream/umber matches up exactly, not even the two Hornby ranges. There are also at least two colour renditions of first-style Hornby Pullmans. Bachmann's Mk.1 Pullmans don't match either, and neither do any of the paint ranges exactly.

 

Graham Farish used to do various Pullmans down the years from the early 'banana-roofed' examples to match-board ones later on. I've never used them. 

 

Keen Systems made a resin body for a Kitchen First, Kitchen Third and Parlour Third - the idea being that these were substituted over a Hornby frame and bogies but I've never used them. They needed painting. 

 

A glance at the pictures will tell you how I've 'solved' the problem of making 'accurate' Pullman trains. They're arrived at by a variety of different means, mainly using the original Hornby cars as a basis. It might be fun guessing which is which. All the different types have been catered for by sticking Comet sides over Hornby donors, replacing the bogies with Mike Trice items (made up solid by only using the cast sides, with a nickel silver bearing plate - I hate compensation units on vehicles), altering the roof detail, bodging and painting the interiors, 'painting' on curtains to the windows' insides, painting the roofs and adding to the frames as necessary. Thus, you get the correct type of car running on the correct bogies and riding at the right height. In all such cases, Ian Rathbone has done the exterior side painting. This man's work is peerless, and I'm very lucky to know him. I've seen some Pullmans lined with transfers and, in tight perspective, the lining wiggles all over the place. I've also seen sets where the cars ride at different heights and angles. In a Pullman train? 

Occasionally, I've used replacement Keen System bogies, but, being plastic, these don't run quite as smoothly as the Trice ones, and the bodies aren't lowered quite enough. You'll note slight differences in the colour schemes painted by Ian. Where I've produced a complete Hornby/Comet/Trice rake, he's painted them in Precision Paints' rendition of the Pullman livery. Where a car fits into a rake with vehicles in the original Hornby livery, he's modified the colours to more match Hornby's style. Where I have used an original Hornby body (a Parlour Brake Third or Parlour First), it's been put on the right bogies, and the interior and roof have been painted. You should be able to tell which is which. Even though the original Hornby sides are a bit thick in comparison, in a rake they don't look too bad, especially riding at the right height. I've included a picture of one of the current Hornby Parlour Brake Thirds. Weathered slightly (by that master, Tim Shackleton), it's one of the cars in my 'Master Cutler' set. I've also put in a couple of pictures of Golden Age's Pullmans. Granted, these are in O gauge but the OO ones look just as good. 

If any of my cars show the odd scrape or scuff, it's because they've been used extensively on main line exhibition layouts. Compared with the Golden Age products, they're nowhere near in the same class (but I did make them myself) and very much 'layout coaches' (or should that be cars?), and the odd dent is to be expected. One of the cars is yet to receive a name (indolence and forgetfulness) and please don't scrutinise them too closely for they're meant to be viewed as sets. 

Truly, there is nothing new under the sun - I've described how I've made my Pullmans in the press, in books and on DVDs for years now, but they might still have some relevance. Thus, I hope these notes are of some help, even if they're a little protracted. Please tell me if I've forgotten anything.  

 

Thank you Tony.

P

 

 

 

 

 

   

 

   

 

Edited August 28, 2013 by Mallard60022

[davidw]

Wow I'm convinced - what an improvement.

[jrg1]

Thank you Tony.

P

Thank you-extremely informative and helpful.  I have a rake of Bachmann Mark 1 Pullmans running with a Hornby Pullman, and the colour variation does jar-a repaint will be undertaken.

Could we have some similar modelling notes on Gresley and Thompson stock used on ER services, please?

Edited August 28, 2013 by Mod4
Unnecessary full post quote removed for clarity

[Theakerr]

Fantastic set of notes.  I have been waiting for several years to get information like this which is factual, succinct and correct.  

[jrg1]

Fantastic set of notes.  I have been waiting for several years to get information like this which is factual, succinct and correct.  

Mallard's post is the ideal for forums such as this-and the printed media simply cannot compete under these circumstances for breadth and depth of content.

[Mallard60022]

Mallard can only post such excellent items as he has access to the original article!

I have added the 'missing' Pullman Car in post 403; can you spot it - great fun?

Entirely my fault during downloading the pictures; I'm a PC duffer.

This 'article' is meant to 'connect' with the layout thread about Peterborough North, so I would like to draw the readers attention to that thread.

 

Thank you - extremely informative and helpful.  I have a rake of Bachmann Mark 1 Pullmans running with a Hornby Pullman, and the colour variation does jar-a repaint will be undertaken.

Could we have some similar modelling notes on Gresley and Thompson stock used on ER services, please? 

 

Tony will be looking at this so there may be hope?

P

Edited August 28, 2013 by Mallard60022

[Mallard60022]

Here is TW's Master Cutler at Little Bytham.

 

 

"Just to show that the current Hornby Pullman cars can be of use in limited numbers on a latter day steam/diesel depiction of the ECML. Here's my 'Master Cutler' rake which contains two current Hornby cars running at the head of the train. The EE Type 4 is a modified Lima item by my elder son, Tom". 

 

Posted on request by P.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Mallard60022

[Grafarman]

Here is TW's Master Cutler at Little Bytham.

 

EE Type 4 on Master Cutler 01.jpg

 

"Just to show that the current Hornby Pullman cars can be of use in limited numbers on a latter day steam/diesel depiction of the ECML. Here's my 'Master Cutler' rake which contains two current Hornby cars running at the head of the train. The EE Type 4 is a modified Lima item by my elder son, Tom". 

 

Posted on request by P.

 

Sorry I don't know much about the Pullmans although they do look great, but I just had to say that Type 4 looks awesome  - is it D287? (can't make it out that clearly...)

 

Excellent stuff

 

David

[Markeg]

Thanks Mallard...22/Phil,

 

Very imformative.  I was only watching the Right Track R-T-R dvd the other day. 

I have a set of the current lighted Pullmans.  I know they are not correct for ECML running, but thats what I have got and wont change it.  I ocassionaly run other BR region locos such as a merchant Navy with sound just for a change.

 

Mark in OZ

[Mallard60022]

Ummmmm - Merchants on the ECML; now there's a nice thought! How things might have been!

P

[BMacdermott]

Hello Tony

 

I wonder if you might consider giving us some thoughts in the future on articulated stock; maybe Quad- and/or Quint-Arts as a starter?

 

I'd love to see these made in rtr form, but wonder how they would go round 2nd radius curves. Easy enough to have them prototypically 'closed up' on the straight, but not so easy on curves, I would guess. 

 

Perhaps some form of ‘clever design’ would be needed??

 

This is probably not the right place to pose the question, but is there any photographic evidence of Quad-Arts running as 4-coach sets? An article I have seen states that the 4.06pm Hitchin-Sandy (late 1950s) was run as such – but Carriage Working Notices suggest eight coaches. (I am aware of the fact that the Quad-Arts were designed to run as 8-coach sets due to the layout of the accommodation.)

 

Many thanks

 

Brian Macdermott

[Tony Wright]

 

 

The two shots of 60054 show work in progress. It started out as Hornby's A3 of 60093 CORONACH, one of the quartet of Carlisle Canal-allocated A3s for working over the Waverley route to and from Edinburgh - the most elusive of A3s for trainspotters anywhere but in the Borders. Equipped with an AWS protection plate, it was thus inappropriate for any Canal A3. I had hoped to renumber it to 60094 COLORADO, which was the only Scottish-based A3 I saw. However, it has an A4, Dia 107 boiler - fantastic for Hornby to offer such selections - which 60094 didn't receive until 1961, commensurate with the fitting of German smoke deflectors. So, which one to should it be? I opted for one of Grantham's allocation, 60054 PRINCE OF WALES. She (he?) received her 107 boiler in 1958 at the same time as receiving her double chimney, so she's running-in on a humdrum stopper at that time. Someone at the Plant forgot to fit her nameplates! I'll be ordering them from 247 Developments. Simple modifications include the substitution of decent bogie wheels (Markits - they look so much better, yet ride no less well, in fact probably better), removal of the superflous guardirons, altering the drawbar to something in between the won't-go-round-curves setting and the Olympian long jump gap and slightly weathering the frames, wheels and motion. I intend to put a sheen on the bodywork to give the impression of new paint. Hornby's finish, though attractive enough, is a bit dull.  

 

The shot of 60501 on a York-King's express illustrates where I can get away with using the big D3 for an eye-level picture. It looks as if the observer is standing on Marsh Bridge, just south of the station. 

 

 

 

This is probably not the right place to pose the question, but is there any photographic evidence of Quad-Arts running as 4-coach sets? An article I have seen states that the 4.06pm Hitchin-Sandy (late 1950s) was run as such – but Carriage Working Notices suggest eight coaches. (I am aware of the fact that the Quad-Arts were designed to run as 8-coach sets due to the layout of the accommodation.)

 

In answer to Brian Macdermott's question about Quad- and Quint-Arts, though I don't have any carriage working diagrams for suburban trains ex-King's Cross, photographic evidence suggests that at off-peak times a single Quad-Art would run as a train. At holiday times, four and five coach sets in combinations would run to the Lincolnshire coast. I've been told that on the way back, wayside stations would literally be flooded with the processed remains of countless pints, there being no lavatories in such trains. One chap (sadly now deceased) told me that at Sleaford, on some occasions, passengers for Leicester or Nottingham used to use the whole platform as a lavatory, and not just the men! Anecdotal evidence? Empirical evidence? Perhaps someone might comment. What it does show is that these sets weren't just used for suburban services.

 

As for going round curves, my articulated stock is quite closely coupled, though I do have fairly generous curves. Great Northern had a Quad-Art set. perhaps he'll let us know how closely coupled that was.   

 

 

[James]

"The EE Type 4 is a modified Lima item by my elder son, Tom". 

I think that shows just how the Lima forty can still hold its own with a little bit of work Edited September 2, 2013 by James

[davidw]

60054 on Up stopper 01.jpg

 

60054 on Up stopper 02.jpg

 

The two shots of 60054 show work in progress. It started out as Hornby's A3 of 60093 CORONACH, one of the quartet of Carlisle Canal-allocated A3s for working over the Waverley route to and from Edinburgh - the most elusive of A3s for trainspotters anywhere but in the Borders. Equipped with an AWS protection plate, it was thus inappropriate for any Canal A3. I had hoped to renumber it to 60094 COLORADO, which was the only Scottish-based A3 I saw. However, it has an A4, Dia 107 boiler - fantastic for Hornby to offer such selections - which 60094 didn't receive until 1961, commensurate with the fitting of German smoke deflectors. So, which one to should it be? I opted for one of Grantham's allocation, 60054 PRINCE OF WALES. She (he?) received her 107 boiler in 1958 at the same time as receiving her double chimney, so she's running-in on a humdrum stopper at that time. Someone at the Plant forgot to fit her nameplates! I'll be ordering them from 247 Developments. Simple modifications include the substitution of decent bogie wheels (Markits - they look so much better, yet ride no less well, in fact probably better), removal of the superflous guardirons, altering the drawbar to something in between the won't-go-round-curves setting and the Olympian long jump gap and slightly weathering the frames, wheels and motion. I intend to put a sheen on the bodywork to give the impression of new paint. Hornby's finish, though attractive enough, is a bit dull.  

 

The shot of 60501 on a York-King's express illustrates where I can get away with using the big D3 for an eye-level picture. It looks as if the observer is standing on Marsh Bridge, just south of the station. 

 

60501 0n York-Kings Cross passing 60821 on parcels.jpg

 

 

 

In answer to Brian Macdermott's question about Quad- and Quint-Arts, though I don't have any carriage working diagrams for suburban trains ex-King's Cross, photographic evidence suggests that at off-peak times a single Quad-Art would run as a train. At holiday times, four and five coach sets in combinations would run to the Lincolnshire coast. I've been told that on the way back, wayside stations would literally be flooded with the processed remains of countless pints, there being no lavatories in such trains. One chap (sadly now deceased) told me that at Sleaford, on some occasions, passengers for Leicester or Nottingham used to use the whole platform as a lavatory, and not just the men! Anecdotal evidence? Empirical evidence? Perhaps someone might comment. What it does show is that these sets weren't just used for suburban services.

 

As for going round curves, my articulated stock is quite closely coupled, though I do have fairly generous curves. Great Northern had a Quad-Art set. perhaps he'll let us know how closely coupled that was.   

 

I just wish people would stop showing me pictures of  non- deflectored A3's.

[BMacdermott]

Hello Tony

 

The attached might be of interest. It is from a Special Train Arrangements booklet for Sunday 4 October 1953.

 

Brian Macdermott

 

 

[Oldddudders]

Hello Tony

 

The attached might be of interest. It is from a Special Train Arrangements booklet for Sunday 4 October 1953.

 

Brian Macdermott

Interesting to note that the SM KX is expected to find a guard who has knowledge over the GE all the way to Southend. Or perhaps he has a man who liaises with the GE to find a conductor or relief guard. Route knowledge then was wider, no doubt, but this is well-off-track for GN staff, surely?

[Tony Wright]

 

A full review of the Bachmann 4F will be appearing in BRM before long, and that, although this current Bachmann RTR example is seen here working on the MR/M&GNR at Little Bytham (taking an excursion to the Norfolk coast), the actual loco was shedded too far away to ever be on such a diagram. No matter, for it won't remain in this guise for long, for I'll be fiddling with it, turning it into something more applicable. It won't take much for it's a brilliant model at source.

 

 

[Barry O]

Looks interesting but there is something about the stock which interests me more. (for some reason that chimney and front end just does not look right but that may be just me..)

 

Is the first coach a rebuilt ex Period 1 62 ft brake composite rebuilt?

[gr.king]

Coming up later, with Mr Wright's approval, his own pictures of the brief presence of some visiting locos on Little Bytham a couple of days ago, including reconnaissance units in LNER colours. Could an LNER invasion be on the way?

[bluebottle]

... for some reason that chimney and front end just does not look right but that may be just me..) ...

 

I suspect that the outline of the engine may have been degraded slightly in the process of adding the "sky" to the image.

[Barry O]

I suspect that the outline of the engine may have been degraded slightly in the process of adding the "sky" to the image.

no I have had a look up close, chimney OK ish but smokebox area not quite right...

[gr.king]

Courtesy of Mr Wright's camera, here are those pictures of the goings-on at Little Bytham last Monday.

 

Firstly a couple of my resin-modified RTR interlopers trying to pass themselves off as members of the home team, namely A2/3 Steady Aim and A2/2 Lord President. The knowledgeable may want to know what on earth these two locos are doing on those services!

 

I'm not sure whether this one is trying to pass for a rather dirty 1950s A3 as it saunters by hauling coal wagons rather more recent than the loco itself. The construction of this, my P1 loco, featured on one of the previous incarnations of RMWeb, in 2008 or thereabouts. It is a blend of Hornby loco superstructure, scratchbuilt running plate, adapted etched chassis for an O2 and a heavily altered Bachmann tender. Having recently been found wanting when tested for maximaum haulage capacity on 4479's "Grantham" layout it has since been on steroids and awaits a return match.

 

This, my whitemetal bodied ex GCR B4, salvaged mainly from the inauspicious selection of items that comprised a McGowan kit cannot even try to hide its identity. It is definitely one of the away team, as are the modified Jidenco GCR "Barnum" coaches at the head of the train and the semi-articualted five car LNER 1935 steel panelled set making up the rest of the train. That is from modified Phoenix / SRG aluminium kits.

 

Rumour has it that 2nd November is a day favoured by LNER management for the full scale invasion of other companies' lines.

[LNER4479]

Lovely locos/photos all but doesn't that B4 and its train look the part in such a natural setting? Mind you, would have been a rare sighting at LB even in pre-war days.

 

Looking forward to the pictures of the 2nd Nov invasion. I have offered to retro-fit somersaults to the signals for the occasion but the District Superintendent isn't 'biting'!

[gr.king]

Does it really require District Superintendant approval if done using one's own initiative, on the spot, "as the only available means of getting traffic moving again quickly"?

[coachmann]

 

Is the first coach a rebuilt ex Period 1 62 ft brake composite rebuilt?

Looks like it is a Stanier D1911 60' corridor brake composite (Nos. 6804/5) Barry