Wright writes.....

[petrovich]

I'll bet it was this one, two years ago...............

 

St Merryn 03.jpg

 

St Merryn 04.jpg

 

St Merryn 07.jpg

 

St Merryn 10.jpg

 

St Merryn 12.jpg

 

Not only does it look superb, but it runs (perfectly). Which proves it can be done in P4. 

That 45XX looks stunning....

 

Regards

 

Peter 

[petrovich]

Good to see you today.

 

I wonder why poor running is tolerated (it would seem) by so many layout operators at shows today. At every one I've been to recently, especially where I'm asked to be a judge (so scrutinise things more closely?), there has been too much poor running in my view. 

 

Am I being a zealot in 'demanding' good running? I know it's easier to have trouble-free running on a layout which is fixed (like Little Bytham), but I've attended hundreds of shows with layouts where I (as part of a group) have insisted on good running. By that I mean no derailments, non-jerking stock, locos capable of doing the task given to them and the operators knowing what they're doing. Obviously, what I've just written is 'impossible' in the knockabout of an exhibition appearance, but surely we should strive for this 'ideal', shouldn't we, whatever our chosen scale/gauge? If a problem occurred on the layouts I was involved with, it would be immediately investigated. If it could be fixed there and then (like replacing a point motor, which I had to do once on Stoke during a show) it was done (with a suitable apology to the punters). If it were an item of stock, it would be taken off and an investigation made later (not in full view). If it could be fixed after/before the show closed/opened, then it was done, and tested before the show opened again. If not, it was fixed at home. Nothing was allowed back until it passed its test again. Is that being over-zealous?

 

I'm not having a dig at the show today. I thoroughly enjoyed myself and will go next year (if a venue can be found). However, today I saw the same loco (or very similar) derail/fall off the same bit of track, hauling the same rake (or very similar) as I saw on the same layout at a show in the summer. This is not some multi-wheeled giant, hauling a gargantuan train at some speed through complex pointwork; no, at a crawling pace, over a couple of points, necessitating the deplorable hand of God! I'd never 'judge' a layout's running during the first couple of hours of a show, but near mid-day, of the second day, some nine months later, why haven't such things been sorted out?  

 

On another layout, an excuse for confusion was given as 'I've left it for a short time, and look what the rest of them have done'. I assume he meant his other operators. It certainly wasn't a finescale creation (on which should we be more tolerant of poor running?), with everything just out of the box in OO it would seem to me, yet a giant mit was still needed to shove trains around. Youngsters were watching at the time, and they turned away (not quite as quickly as I did). 

 

I realise how difficult it can be at times to ensure our 'creations' work well, but a show (every show) is a 'shop window' for the hobby. It's not a free shop window where one can browse and window shop without financial necessity, and, if we're expecting folk to pay the admission, surely those attendees should expect to see a layout working properly, shouldn't they? 

 

I state again, this is a general criticism of the shows I've attended more recently (a few layouts worked perfectly today). Some have displayed better (general) running than others, but too many (current) layouts don't run as well as they should in my opinion. How can the exhibitors enjoy themselves when things fall off, stutter or the operators don't have a clue? 

 

I know this sort of thing has been discussed before but I still feel it's food for further thought. 

What I do not understand is that they more than likely know people within the hobby that could solve the issue ( see specific text in green above ) but choose not to do so for some reason. Asking politely never hurts and normally does not get an impolite response but some courteous assistance.

Generally I have found everyone in this hobby likes to assist and is generous with their time and help.

 

Regards

 

Peter 

[Anglian]

I'll bet it was this one, two years ago...............

 

St Merryn 03.jpg

 

St Merryn 04.jpg

 

St Merryn 07.jpg

 

St Merryn 10.jpg

 

St Merryn 12.jpg

 

Not only does it look superb, but it runs (perfectly). Which proves it can be done in P4. 

 

 

Yes, that's the one. The GWR P4 layout at Stevenage also ran faultlessly. I must have spent at least an hour watching it. In both instances the operators of these layouts invited me behind the scenes and couldn't have been more friendly and helpful in answering all of my questions.

Edited March 11, 2018 by Anglian

[Tony Wright]

Yes, that's the one. The GWR P4 layout at Stevenage also ran faultlessly. I must have spent at least an hour watching it. In both instances the operators of these layouts invited me behind the scenes and couldn't have been more friendly and helpful in answering all of my questions.

I agree entirely.

 

Perfect appearance and perfect running. 

 

It can be done. 

 

 

 

[Hollar]

Try sealing with matt varnish e.g Testors Dullcote , a couple of coats will normally give a even finish.

Not this time it didn't!  Good idea generally, though.

 

Tone

[St Enodoc]

That 45XX looks stunning....

 

Regards

 

Peter 

...apart from the wonky number plate.

[Enterprisingwestern]

I remember watching a layout at the Scottish exhibition a few years ago, OO gauge/roundy round/RTR, where, everytime something came out of the fiddle yard on a certain track it fell off.

So, just to prove there is more than one way to skin a cat, most oif us would, I imagine, sort out the rail joint, but not this group, someone was allocated to be stationed at the offending joint and re-rail everything that collapsed for the weekend!

 

Mike.

[Tony Wright]

...apart from the wonky number plate.

Which proves how much a photograph 'reveals' far more than just observation by the naked eye. 

 

It also shows how much easier it is nowadays to 'correct' mistakes on a model in Photoshop. I could straighten out that 'plate, but I'm not going to. 

 

As I've said before, the acid test of my modelling (any modelling) is to take a picture of what I've made (a very good picture of it) and then realise how grotty my constructional techniques really are. Soldered joints which looked perfect through my specs' reveal themselves to be miniature relief maps of the mountains on the Moon, cabs which I thought were at a perfect right angle lean like a drunkard, boiler fittings adopt a 'Hello Sailor' attitude, wheels which I thought were quite fine look like tractor tyres, painting which looked as smooth as the proverbial infant's @rse now looks like a rotten orange and lining/lettering which I thought was knife-edge in its neatness represents a serpent. Where? Through the (very high-resolution) lens of my camera! 

 

The really clever get away away with their grotty modelling by using a grotty camera to illustrate it. I'm not clever. 

[Tony Wright]

I also visited E.A.E at Wood Green today and saw a Super D hauled coal empties banked by a 4F  on the Summit,was I lucky? and must agree with most of your comments. While I was watching Sidmouth there was little movement but a beautiful rendition of the station area and the sound on the French shed scene was too loud and unrealistic for my taste.I have seen Fenchurch St Peter several times and it never fails to please, love it!

Thanks Mike,

 

Without appearing nit-picking (I hope), a quick glance at my 1955/'56 Ian Allan Locoshed books reveals no Super D to be shedded at an ex-Midland depot, which would make their appearance on the S&C rare?). 

 

The front cover of the show guide (which was very-well produced, and free!) had a Princess Coronation at work on The Summit (with no lamps, surely a must-have in O Gauge?); a most-unlikely occurrence, except on a special. 

 

Though they might have been present in the fiddle yard, I didn't see a Jubilee, Royal Scot or a Black Five (or a Holbeck-allocated A3) during the time I watched. As I say, The Summit couldn't have been anywhere else but on the S&C (scenically, it captured it perfectly), until some of the trains appeared. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Bucoops]

Thompson BZ = 6w passenger brake van.

 

x.jpg

 

(See above).

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

Hi john, Yes I realised that after posting - I was going by the E6 part number

[Chamby]

There is a big difference in the way that club and private layouts operate. It is easier to keep to the fidelity of prototype stock on a private layout because there is a single focus of interest. Club membership of necessity brings together people within a certain geographic area but inevitably they will have a greater spread of interests. These people come together in order to build a club layout, but if the stock run on the layout is contributed by individual members then the broader range of interests re-emerges. This is how you arrive at a beautifully modelled location, and with nicely modelled stock running, but the two not necessarily aligned.

 

I don’t know them but I would imagine that the guys at Yeovil, who built and operate The Summit fall into this category. All the involved members on exhibition days will enjoy showcasing their own stock on such a layout. I know I would! And to be fair, probably 90% of the public attending the exhibition will not be any the wiser and will still marvel at the nicely modelled trains operating on a layout with the ‘wow’ factor, and actually see the wider variety of stuff running as a positive thing. They can’t ‘tut tut’ about the detail because they are not as knowledgeable as some of us. And let’s be honest, to the uneducated eye a Jubilee looks much like a Patriot looks like a rebuilt Scot looks like a Black 5... this layout is aimed at the many rather than the few, and for most people it therefore works.

 

I saw The Summit at Warley and was very impressed. It ran well, and the trains kept coming, and kept coming. It entertained and showcased the hobby far better than many other layouts at the show. Were the trains prototypically perfect for the location? No. But if you step back and look at the wood, rather than the trees (as the saying goes) then it is a bloody good layout and I would be really proud to be a member of that club.

 

I can understand that with the prototypical fidelity being so good on the layoutitself, it will frustrate some that this was not followed through with the stock. But I can see why the club allows this: It may be a deliberate policy that they will have given some thought to, and come to the decision that this approach is of greater benefit. Call it ‘rule 1’ or whatever, that they can produce such a good model and still have the freedom to run it the way they do, I can cut them some slack for that.

 

Phil.

[Lecorbusier]

 And to be fair, probably 90% of the public attending the exhibition will not be any the wiser and will still marvel at the nicely modelled trains operating on a layout with the ‘wow’ factor, and actually see the wider variety of stuff running as a positive thing. They can’t ‘tut tut’ about the detail because they are not as knowledgeable as some of us. And let’s be honest, to the uneducated eye a Jubilee looks much like a Patriot looks like a rebuilt Scot looks like a Black 5... this layout is aimed at the many rather than the few, and for most people it therefore works.

 

 

.... A layout ... "for the many not the few" ...... and with all that heavy engineering one suspects that the trains will have a fair amount of "momentum" into the bargain .... lets hope in this case the guard doesn't have to keep "the red flag flying here " for too long.     The subconscious zeitgeist of language perhaps ?

[Chamby]

.... A layout ... "for the many not the few" ...... and with all that heavy engineering one suspects that the trains will have a fair amount of "momentum" into the bargain .... lets hope in this case the guard doesn't have to keep "the red flag flying here " for too long.     The subconscious zeitgeist of language perhaps ?

The stuff on my layout will run green and blue... never red! And being still at the baseboard building stage, I aspire to something “strong and stable...” but hopefully in my case it really will be!

[Richard E]

I went to an exhibition over the weekend. I am sorry to say I was disappointed.

 

It didn't start well as the club had organised off site parking with a shuttle bus. When I arrived the queue must have been about 70 people long. OK, that is just over a bus load - oh no it wasn't, the shuttle 'bus' was a 12 seater minibus. One of the stewards then told us we could walk to the exhibition, it was only 10 minutes walk at worst. So I set off to do this and then I am told by another steward that we cannot walk. At this point I left the car park to go home. This meant going past the venue and it became apparent that they had allowed parking on site again. So I did.

 

The single hall in use was very crowded.That immediately takes some of the pleasure away but it is good to see the hobby attracting good crowds.

 

Now to the crunch bit and one of Tonys pet likes, running. First layout I looked at was modern image with Mallard running a steam special. OK you think except they seemed to be going for the steam speed record through the station. I can accept that to some extent as they need to keep the non-enthusiast entertained. However in this attempt the A4 derailed on a baseboard join to a comment from ther operator along the lines of 'What on earth?'. Cue much finger prodding as the loco remained upright and the operator hadn't twigged it was a derailment. The OHLE didn't help when it came to rerailing the errant loco.

 

I moved on and was very impressed with an O gauge layout depicting a Settle and Carlisle like scene at a summit with a passing loop and little else, very very nice and superb running as you would expect in a large scale model.

 

On to the next layout, nice running, quite imaginative use of space, some gimmicky lights but not OTT. Unfortunately spoiled for me by the running of a large Prairie (61xx) and an Auotcoach in push pull configuration, By that I mean Autocoach leading, I don't think that is prototypical but I am open to correction.

 

There were one or two other layouts that caught my eye but, again, operation let them down due to jackrabbit starts and 'brick wall' stops and stock selection that looked incongruous to me. Again the non-enthusiast may not be so critical.

 

I guess the thing is exhibitions are supposed to showcase our hobby, if what is being depicted is not correct is this something we should be doing at exhibitions. OK, at home, rule 1 can be applied and I will probably do so at some point myself.

 

I am asking myself am I being too critical, I'd hope not as a local exhibition I went to late last year caused none of the grumblings I've voiced this time. It seems a shame for the club involved last weekend although I appreciate that some of this is outside their control. I should add I went last year and thoroughly enjoyed my visit ...

[jamie92208]

Thanks Mike,

 

Without appearing nit-picking (I hope), a quick glance at my 1955/'56 Ian Allan Locoshed books reveals no Super D to be shedded at an ex-Midland depot, which would make their appearance on the S&C rare?). 

 

The front cover of the show guide (which was very-well produced, and free!) had a Princess Coronation at work on The Summit (with no lamps, surely a must-have in O Gauge?); a most-unlikely occurrence, except on a special. 

 

Though they might have been present in the fiddle yard, I didn't see a Jubilee, Royal Scot or a Black Five (or a Holbeck-allocated A3) during the time I watched. As I say, The Summit couldn't have been anywhere else but on the S&C (scenically, it captured it perfectly), until some of the trains appeared. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

I grew up watching the S & C across the valley and can make a few comments about what ran.  No Super D's, very, very few Princess/Coronations.  Plenty of Black5's, 8F's, 9F's and 4F's plus Jubilee's Scots and Britannia's on passenger work.  I know the A3's and Clan's appeared but don't remember seeing them.  WD's mainly appeared on the relaying trains in the early 60's double headed n a Sunday morning with e20 bogie flats with track panels.  However I suppose that's why it's called The Summit rather than Ais Gill.

 

Jamie

[Cmax]

No connection with the Yeovil Club, but this is from the clubs website, explains it all.

The Summit

Following on from the success of South Junction there were moves in the group to produce an ‘O’ gauge layout of exhibition standard that kept trains running (a group philosophy!) and most of all could accommodate the ever increasing number of big O gauge locos being built by members.

It was difficult to find a suitable location to base the layout on but eventually the Summit on the Settle to Carlisle line was chosen.  As with South Junction it had no station where trains could stand for hours at an exhibition! but did have sufficient interest with some sidings and provision for a banker…

Building the layout was no quick and easy task!  Track was laid and then pulled up to enable a better curvature to accommodate the intended traffic.  The build did not seem to progress much for weeks or even months then there would be a great leaps forward.  On the first night that trains ran around both main tracks a film was produced and a copy given to each member for a souvenir.

The track is laid on a set of curved layout boards with minimum scenery that form a backbone to the layout.   The scenery is of lightweight construction and attaches to the layout boards.   It was intended that the scenery would be dramatic and its construction was a huge task in itself.  Tall sections tower behind the track and wide sections at the front drop down, which together with a viaduct, tunnel and bridge give the layout the intended ‘wow’ impact at exhibitions.

The Summit at Guildex Telford 2015

This layout was exhibited at Guildex in 2015, Taunton Railex and Warley NEC in 2016 and has won awards at every appearance.  It can only just be squeezed into a 7.5 tonne lorry and requires a team of ten to erect, operate and break down the layout.  During exhibitions we try to have two members (in addition to the signalman) in front of the layout to answer questions and generally engage with the viewing public.  The Summit is available for exhibitions and further details can be found here.   In 2016 to cap a very successful year The Summit  won the Railway Modeller Cup for layout features as voted for by their readers.

Operationally the layout is DC, with clever circuits to automatically control the fiddle yard.  Points and signals are interlocked and operated from the front of the layout using a Modratec lever frame.

Gary

[stewartingram]

This says C10 - http://www.cometmodels.co.uk/data/Catalog/pdf/E6.pdf

 

Until a couple of months ago I had an unbuilt kit but sold it as not my era. It had standard Gresley bogies IIRC?

Thanks guys. Partially my error, and some confusion with the website. I wrote the parts list on a scrap of paper, putting the roof part number as C110 instead of C10. I originally searched on the Comet site, which shows C10. Just like John Isherwood, I bought mine in the same period - probably from the same shop, (R&D Models?). My instruction sheet does not list the parts, though the present Comet sheet does. Looking today on the parent Wizard shot however, for C10, that is not listed. There is a C10a and a C10b however for Gresleys.

Tony has thankfully replied with his suggestions for alternative suppliers. I now have to just organise supplies, maybe even for Ally Pally collection?

 

Stewart

[westerner]

This thread moves so fast that it's difficult to keep up. I don't know how Sir does it. I too was at Huntingdon yesterday and did bump into Tony and had a chat and was reminded of the occasion that we had a race between my Heljan Western and one of his A4s and as you might expect the A4 won. However enough of that, the exhibition. I must admit after having seen Sidmouth last year when every time something moved it had a tendency to derail, this year every time I stopped to watch I did not see anything fail. What was slightly odd considering the wonderful buildings etc, was that there were very few people watching, , I think because quite often very little was happening (unlike say St Merryn) Part of the reason may have been a long lead in from the fiddleyard, something similar to what I felt about the Summit. The spirit of Swindon was very well done but just like Tony I could not quite understand why the had decided on 1959, when there would have been no Westerns or Red Warships and no yellow ends and no Hymecks, perhaps  a time period of 61-63 might have been better. Some thing else I think might have been helpful as they were using technology to communicate with each (screen of the fiddle yard and head sets,and the lighting effects), would have been a screen to let the spectators know what was happening and which train was passing as I gather they were (according to the programme) running a condensed timetable. Possibly the 2 layouts I enjoyed the most were the French steam shed and The Launceston Steam Railway, Bothe when I was watching ran well.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who as they have get older and visited many exhibitions both as a visitor and an operator I get more critical, hopefully constructively, of layouts. Tony's dictum of locos or stock  being taken off when playing up was always strictly adhered to on the two layouts I helped operate, Potterbourne and Salmon Pastures. which is possibly why between them when there were cups to be won we won some 5 or 6 for best layout in show over some 20-30 exhibitions.

 

Enough I hear you cry. So on to something I almost missed GWR/WR at little Bytham, Tony was kind enough to include three of my locos in his post on the subject, The Castle the 38xx and the Hall all RTR weathered and renamed by me and the distance between tender and loco shortened, all with crew, real coal and LAMPS (at least correct for my layout at the time.) I thought I would show you some more of the visiting Western Region locos that I have taken to Little Bytham and Run, so here goes. Firstly three steam locos

 

 

 

 

And now some hydraulics

 

 

 

 

 

I am very pleased to say that none of them disgraced themselves or me.

[cctransuk]

 Just like John Isherwood, I bought mine in the same period - probably from the same shop, (R&D Models?).

 

Stewart

 

No - even earlier than that - The Model Shop in Lincoln Road, Peterborough; (what a goldmine that was - they even had brand new spare screw jacks for the Hornby Dublo breakdown crane)!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[jwealleans]

Was that the establishment whose former proprietors are always in attendance at Spalding? It was an absolute Aladdin's cave. Marvellous place of the type now sadly very rare indeed.

[cctransuk]

Was that the establishment whose former proprietors are always in attendance at Spalding? It was an absolute Aladdin's cave. Marvellous place of the type now sadly very rare indeed.

 

Couldn't say - it's a bit of a drive from Bodmin to Spalding !

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Tony Wright]

There is a big difference in the way that club and private layouts operate. It is easier to keep to the fidelity of prototype stock on a private layout because there is a single focus of interest. Club membership of necessity brings together people within a certain geographic area but inevitably they will have a greater spread of interests. These people come together in order to build a club layout, but if the stock run on the layout is contributed by individual members then the broader range of interests re-emerges. This is how you arrive at a beautifully modelled location, and with nicely modelled stock running, but the two not necessarily aligned.

 

I don’t know them but I would imagine that the guys at Yeovil, who built and operate The Summit fall into this category. All the involved members on exhibition days will enjoy showcasing their own stock on such a layout. I know I would! And to be fair, probably 90% of the public attending the exhibition will not be any the wiser and will still marvel at the nicely modelled trains operating on a layout with the ‘wow’ factor, and actually see the wider variety of stuff running as a positive thing. They can’t ‘tut tut’ about the detail because they are not as knowledgeable as some of us. And let’s be honest, to the uneducated eye a Jubilee looks much like a Patriot looks like a rebuilt Scot looks like a Black 5... this layout is aimed at the many rather than the few, and for most people it therefore works.

 

I saw The Summit at Warley and was very impressed. It ran well, and the trains kept coming, and kept coming. It entertained and showcased the hobby far better than many other layouts at the show. Were the trains prototypically perfect for the location? No. But if you step back and look at the wood, rather than the trees (as the saying goes) then it is a bloody good layout and I would be really proud to be a member of that club.

 

I can understand that with the prototypical fidelity being so good on the layoutitself, it will frustrate some that this was not followed through with the stock. But I can see why the club allows this: It may be a deliberate policy that they will have given some thought to, and come to the decision that this approach is of greater benefit. Call it ‘rule 1’ or whatever, that they can produce such a good model and still have the freedom to run it the way they do, I can cut them some slack for that.

 

Phil.

 

 

I should state again that I found The Summit most-impressive, and I have no wish to appear nit-picking in my comments. It was a terrific feature at the show over the weekend, and it ran well. It reminded me of Holiday Haunts, where, dependent on what was running, it could be anywhere one wanted it to be.

 

I do take your points, by the way, but I might also add that, if one runs appropriate stock on a prototype-based layout (or a layout clearly based on prototype practice), then, if it works well (as The Summit did), you can please just about everyone - those who understand what's correct and those who either don't care or don't know whether the trains are 'right' or not. We at WMRC found this with Stoke Summit and Charwelton, both of which ran well and seemed to be very popular at shows (with most punters, whether knowledgeable or not). 

 

Am I one of the 'few' for which a layout like this is not aimed? I hope not, and I also hope I can appreciate good modelling, especially locos and stock, though its being incongruous does take away some of the enjoyment, I admit. 

 

As a trainspotter, I was definitely one of the many, and, I tell you no lie, we all knew the differences (even at a distance) between the various LMS 4-6-0s. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited March 12, 2018 by Tony Wright

[glo41f]

If you have to have the GW on "our" LB then Andy's models are excellent examples. I have to say that I think the Hymeks are quite handsome and the weathering on this one is super as is the Western which looks as though it has done several hundred miles to Penzance and back. Well done sir!

 

Perhaps now we can get back to our regular diet of the mass production of Mr T's ungainly locomotives.

 

With reference to the recent Huntingdon show and the operation or lack of of the layouts on display there, I do feel strongly that layouts which are put in the public domain should work properly. I get less excised about appropriate trains etc. as the public who are the ones who bank roll the show, do not really care about authenticity to the extent that our Leader does (closely followed by me!). It is show business after all.

 

The 7mm S&C line was awesome and so well designed that you were there in the fells and felt the tingle of excitement as the signals dropped........what was coming next?  It was a fantastic show as a procession of trains passed by so much so that there was no time for fruit pies and fizzy pop!  I doubt that there are any other portable 7mm layouts where you could see a Duchess (and later the Turbomotive) hauling a 17 coach train at speed, the whole not dominating the scene it being a perfect railway in an landscape. I just wished that I lived nearer to Yeovil so I could go along and play too! (Imagine my GE Brit running over that!)

 

Is it not true that the best display layouts are usually group efforts where the focus is on the production and presentation of a believable scene?

 

Martin Long

[asmay2002]

I get less excised about appropriate trains etc. as the public who are the ones who bank roll the show, do not really care about authenticity to the extent that our Leader does (closely followed by me!). It is show business after all.

In show business the BBC's ethos of "inform, educate, entertain" has become a standard for broadcasters worldwide and it is one that I personally think is valid for model railway shows.  It isn't all about the "entertain" bit and the public do get it if you do the inform and educate bits well. I don't think it's clever to treat the public as though they are all idiots.

[Jol Wilkinson]

In show business the BBC's ethos of "inform, educate, entertain" has become a standard for broadcasters worldwide and it is one that I personally think is valid for model railway shows.  It isn't all about the "entertain" bit and the public do get it if you do the inform and educate bits well. I don't think it's clever to treat the public as though they are all idiots.

 

From personal experience, the "entertaining" bit  is what most show visitors seek. Some layouts, in concentrating on that, cannot effectively educate and enlighten. Further, surely education isn't just about showing something, but explaining why, how, etc. Unless there is some sort of discussion between the viewer and presenter, a set of explanatory display posters, a video presentation, or whatever, the viewer cannot gain further knowledge. "interfacing" with the viewers, while operating a layout, isn't always practical although some operators do try. Oddly, the layouts praised in recent posts don't, from memory, provide any educational displays and the operators are not available for discussion.

 

Have you ever seen a "demonstrator" (as I have) with head bent over their current project, engrossed in what they are doing, while the visitors walk past, learning nothing? I remember one proudly announcing on a forum of how many models they had assembled at a particular show. Entertaining to watch perhaps, but not educational (although I found it enlightening).