Tony Wright Posted December 3, 2019 Author Share Posted December 3, 2019 1 minute ago, Clive Mortimore said: Hello Tony If the modeller is a photographer as well and enjoys both hobbies and can can combine both then a big thumbs up. There is a thread about "How realistic are your models", I view it every now and then, I see some very good model making and some very clever photography, so hats off the the contributors. Sadly they still look like models to me. You mention how photographs of a layout can be deceiving, as you state Little Bytham can appear different to what people expect to see when they see it for real. A layout that does that to me is Copenhagen Fields, before everyone jumps up and down this is no disrespect to the modelling that Tim and the gang have put into it, it looks wonderful in many photos, and is quite a remarkable model but seeing it the flesh leaves me cold. Thankfully for Tim, those who helped build and operate it there are loads of people who get pleasure form seeing it. Please can we not turn this into a debate as why I find some well made layouts not of my liking. Like many on here I am quite opinionated when it comes to model railways. Please do have a pop at my taste in train sets on my layout thread Sheffield Exchange. 'Please can we not turn this into a debate as why I find some well made layouts not of my liking.' I don't think we are, Clive.................... Regards, Tony. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 4630 Posted December 3, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 3, 2019 48 minutes ago, Tony Wright said: I certainly don't mind at all, and, please do not delete your image. What I would say (and no offence intended) is that in your image, the wheels and motion on the locos have almost disappeared with regard to our ability to really make them out. If you wish, please alter the other images. Regards, Tony. Your observation is noted, although it was a very quick edit that I did. Thanks for the offer to alter the other images Tony. Sadly my day job will get in the way at the moment, but I did have a quick tinker with your B&W image of Copenhagen Fields. 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted December 3, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 3, 2019 1 minute ago, Tony Wright said: 'Please can we not turn this into a debate as why I find some well made layouts not of my liking.' I don't think we are, Clive.................... Regards, Tony. Hello Tony Preempting any backlash to my deviation to the opinion of the masses. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium CF MRC Posted December 3, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 3, 2019 Interesting use of the Tony picture of our pair of singles storming up Holloway Bank. Unfortunately, just before it was taken, the up goods distant bracket signal succumbed to a final knock (it’s had a chequered life having been rebuilt once already). Going back a few years, Craig Tiley took a similar picture with an intact signal for our RM article. However, modern colour images are clearly incorrect for the era. So I had a go at it to make it look like a tinted postcard - there were many of the GN. Not surprisingly, this is my computer desktop image. Photos obviously courtesy of Craig & RM. The UG Distant was rebuilt last year. I now need to get into signal mode for Belle Isle. Tim 13 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted December 3, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 3, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said: Models looking like the real thing? This comes down to the skills of both the modeller and the photographer to trick the viewer's eyes. No matter how hard we try to make our models look realistic when we see them in the flesh they are still models. I for one prefer to see photographs showing the modeller's skill rather than the photographer's ability to deceive my eyesight, but then I am a modeller not a photographer. As an occasional (and more casual than Tony) layout photographer, the odd shot that makes viewers uncertain gives me a real buzz. All the more so if the rest looks good enough that they don't even notice the S&W or Kadee couplers!!!! John Edited December 3, 2019 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted December 3, 2019 Author Share Posted December 3, 2019 2 hours ago, Lecorbusier said: That is a fantastic picture of Copenhagen Fields Tony .... and for me it is the colour photo all the way. I can't believe you remember your trainspotting days in black and white! I also feel hoisted by my own petard a little ... I have seen Copenhagen fields in the flesh a couple of times now, and your photo certainly adds to my experience of it, which is not to say that I was in anyway disappointed by the layout in the flesh - though to my mind viewing from so far above coupled to the smallness do rob it of something ... it feels a little like viewing from an aeroplane. Tim Thanks Tim, But, as mentioned, it's only a few who are given the dispensation to place their cameras on such hallowed ground! Of course I remember my trainspotting days in B&W. I started trainspotting (proper) in 1956, and Trains Illustrated (which was avidly read at the time) was always monochrome. Even when it grew up into Modern Railways (still having steam images on its cover from time to time) it was mainly B&W, as was the contemporary Railway World (which was also read from cover to cover at the time). The main photographic contributors' work of the day was always in B&W - Eric Treacy, Colin Walker, etc. It was as late as 1964 before I took my first colour images (at aged 18), and a few of my subsequent efforts have now been published. Student poverty, not-so-good cameras (it was at least a decade later before my Nikon F) and ignorance of the process meant many were indifferent. Perhaps not as indifferent as my very first pictures I took of railways............................ These have probably appeared before, but with 1,600 pages now, a long way back. 45502 ROYAL NAVAL DIVISION at Chester in 1957. Behind is part of the (long demolished) City Hospital where I was born, 11 years previously. Was it preordained I'd be gripped by railways? Also taken in 1957, at Botany Bay, just north of Retford. Class A2/2 WOLF OF BADENOCH heads a Down special. Nobody told me that a Brownie 127's shutter speed would not be adequate to 'freeze' a fast-moving train! Ah, those B&W days........................... Regards, Tony. 11 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Barry Ten Posted December 3, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 3, 2019 12 minutes ago, Tony Wright said: Nobody told me that a Brownie 127's shutter speed would not be adequate to 'freeze' a fast-moving train! Good job they didn't, in my view - that shot, grainy as it is, is far more evocative of the mass and power of a working steam loco than some superbly exposed, pin-sharp photo of the likes we've all seen a million times before. 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecorbusier Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 6 minutes ago, Tony Wright said: Thanks Tim, Of course I remember my trainspotting days in B&W. I started trainspotting (proper) in 1956, and Trains Illustrated (which was avidly read at the time) was always monochrome. Even when it grew up into Modern Railways (still having steam images on its cover from time to time) it was mainly B&W, as was the contemporary Railway World (which was also read from cover to cover at the time). The main photographic contributors' work of the day was always in B&W - Eric Treacy, Colin Walker, etc. Ah, those B&W days........................... But of course .... I wasn't talking about the photos taken or those avidly poured over in magazines .... but rather what you observed with intense excitement with the naked eye - and yes ... through the lens of your own Camera ... in magnificent full colour !!! Live steam no less - which sadly for many of us it is only possible to get an inkling of through the prism of black and white, and to some extent the sanitised heritage scene. Mallard in Blue .. the flying scotsman in Green ... not to mention the glorious LMS in Crimson Lake ... Surely you don't remember those Halcyon days in black and white ? however nostalgic the photos might be. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted December 3, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 3, 2019 I have nothing more to add to the present discussions but I have been looking out for a certain milestone. If my counter is up to date this is post no 40,001. That is worth mentioning in despatches! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium TrevorP1 Posted December 3, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 3, 2019 (edited) I’ve been plodding on with the Grange chassis ‘as and when’. As mentioned before it‘s the first one I’ve built that has to work. Today was coupling rod day. I soldered the halves together and with Tony’s advice ringing in my ears, “get in and out quick!” soldered the fixing washers on. It was much easier than I expected and much to my amazement everything revolved first time. It’s now spent 15 minutes on the rollers in each direction. Obviously the rods need cleaning up and the wheels came from the ‘odds box’ (correct size, wrong number of spokes and with one crankpin held in with super glue only) but now I know everything works I’ll send off for the proper ones. Much relief and an early Christmas present! Edited December 3, 2019 by TrevorP1 typo 16 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted December 3, 2019 Author Share Posted December 3, 2019 59 minutes ago, Lecorbusier said: But of course .... I wasn't talking about the photos taken or those avidly poured over in magazines .... but rather what you observed with intense excitement with the naked eye - and yes ... through the lens of your own Camera ... in magnificent full colour !!! Live steam no less - which sadly for many of us it is only possible to get an inkling of through the prism of black and white, and to some extent the sanitised heritage scene. Mallard in Blue .. the flying scotsman in Green ... not to mention the glorious LMS in Crimson Lake ... Surely you don't remember those Halcyon days in black and white ? however nostalgic the photos might be. 'Mallard in Blue .. the flying scotsman in Green ... not to mention the glorious LMS in Crimson Lake ... Surely you don't remember those Halcyon days in black and white ? however nostalgic the photos might be'. Of course not, Tim, I'n not that old! Though I do have childhood memories of locos in BR blue. And, yes, I saw BR steam in glorious polychrome (one can't be an art teacher if one is colour blind), though BR 'standard grime', which was very common, would hardly exploit the spectrum. It's just that, as mentioned, in my 'formative' years it was (to quote Irwell) 'You'll remember those black and white days', which I do. Regards, Tony. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted December 3, 2019 Author Share Posted December 3, 2019 39 minutes ago, t-b-g said: I have nothing more to add to the present discussions but I have been looking out for a certain milestone. If my counter is up to date this is post no 40,001. That is worth mentioning in despatches! Thanks Tony, I assume that's a lot? The reason I ask is that some years ago on here there was a 'dispute' (if I recall correctly) between two threads about which layout was the 'most-popular', resulting in the 'loser' taking no further part in posting about what he'd made/was making. I thought it rather petty at the time, and still do. Is it that important? I think what is important is how this particular thread (which is not 'mine' by the way) is frequented by so many actual modellers. I've learned so much from it, so my thanks to all who've contributed (and contribute still). And, yes, in typical Wright hypocrisy-mode, I did 'celebrate' 1,600 pages! Regards, Tony. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted December 3, 2019 Author Share Posted December 3, 2019 46 minutes ago, TrevorP1 said: I’ve been plodding on with the Grange chassis ‘as and when’. As mentioned before it‘s the first one I’ve built that has to work. Today was coupling rod day. I soldered the halves together and with Tony’s advice ringing in my ears, “get in and out quick!” soldered the fixing washers on. It was much easier than I expected and much to my amazement everything revolved first time. It’s now spent 15 minutes on the rollers in each direction. Obviously the rods need cleaning up and the wheels came from the ‘odds box’ (correct size, wrong number of spokes and with one crankpin held in with super glue only) but now I know everything works I’ll send off for the proper ones. Much relief and an early Christmas present! Great stuff! Merry Christmas! Regards, Tony. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
landscapes Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 9 hours ago, Dunsignalling said: Very nice but, in my view, a bigger improvement would come from a liberal application of "ground-level-grot" (ash, puddles etc.) to the layout. John Hi John Thank you for your kind comments, but the layout is far from completed. I still have lots of track wiring to do plus adding point motors, this all has to be completed as you know before any scenic works starts. But I do agree fully with your comments that the addition of ashes, cinders etc will certainly improve the photos. At present I am just experimenting with different photographic angles for now. Regards David 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium polybear Posted December 3, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 3, 2019 5 hours ago, Tony Wright said: Given, then, that the only way that a real-life a photographer could capture such an image would be in B&W, here it is again...................... Which actually I prefer, given that it's much more redolent of the time. Now I understand...I think.... http://calvin-and-hobbes-comic-strips.blogspot.com/2011/11/calvin-asks-dad-about-old-black-and.html 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted December 3, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 3, 2019 1 hour ago, Tony Wright said: Thanks Tony, I assume that's a lot? The reason I ask is that some years ago on here there was a 'dispute' (if I recall correctly) between two threads about which layout was the 'most-popular', resulting in the 'loser' taking no further part in posting about what he'd made/was making. I thought it rather petty at the time, and still do. Is it that important? I think what is important is how this particular thread (which is not 'mine' by the way) is frequented by so many actual modellers. I've learned so much from it, so my thanks to all who've contributed (and contribute still). And, yes, in typical Wright hypocrisy-mode, I did 'celebrate' 1,600 pages! Regards, Tony. I am not sure if it represents popularity of anything but the thread does seem to have taken on a role of being a digital meeting place for a certain sort of people. Huge chunks of the thread have very little to do with Little Bytham directly. The layout forms a sort of core to which we add all sorts of vaguely related content. None of it is important. It is just people nattering about building model railways. life, the universe and everything. In truth I only look at a tiny number of threads on RMWeb now. There is so much on here that to look at it all would leave no time for anything else but to me, 40,000 comments sounds like a lot! This one always gets looked at as it is usually has something worth reading, whether I agree with it or not. Here's to 50,000! 13 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted December 3, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 3, 2019 53 minutes ago, landscapes said: Hi John Thank you for your kind comments, but the layout is far from completed. I still have lots of track wiring to do plus adding point motors, this all has to be completed as you know before any scenic works starts. But I do agree fully with your comments that the addition of ashes, cinders etc will certainly improve the photos. At present I am just experimenting with different photographic angles for now. Regards David Hi David, I should have spotted that it was a work-in-progress. Having had another look, the track looks freshly laid. It's well on the way to being a very nice layout and, having got the engineering side taken care of, dressing it up should provide an enjoyable way to spend some of the long winter evenings. Regards John 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Bucoops Posted December 3, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 3, 2019 16 minutes ago, polybear said: Now I understand...I think.... http://calvin-and-hobbes-comic-strips.blogspot.com/2011/11/calvin-asks-dad-about-old-black-and.html Still got the original paper copy of that one somewhere - black and white of course! 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard i Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 1 hour ago, Tony Wright said: 'Mallard in Blue .. the flying scotsman in Green ... not to mention the glorious LMS in Crimson Lake ... Surely you don't remember those Halcyon days in black and white ? however nostalgic the photos might be'. Of course not, Tim, I'n not that old! Though I do have childhood memories of locos in BR blue. And, yes, I saw BR steam in glorious polychrome (one can't be an art teacher if one is colour blind), though BR 'standard grime', which was very common, would hardly exploit the spectrum. It's just that, as mentioned, in my 'formative' years it was (to quote Irwell) 'You'll remember those black and white days', which I do. Regards, Tony. Tony You have also claimed to remember lner green.......just . Possibly a b1 but your knowledge of each engine type was not as sharp then. Oh to have seen it. richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted December 3, 2019 Author Share Posted December 3, 2019 1 hour ago, richard i said: Tony You have also claimed to remember lner green.......just . Possibly a b1 but your knowledge of each engine type was not as sharp then. Oh to have seen it. richard I do, Richard, It would be at Kiveton Park in about 1950/'51, sitting on the 'box steps while my granddad chatted to his neighbour, the signalman. It must have been a B1 in apple green or even a B17, but I was only four or five, so I don't know. A first railway memory? It's definitely there. The family went over Woodhead before my dad got a car and before electrification. The loco hauling us was black, so I assume it was another B1, or even a V2. Regards, Tony. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chamby Posted December 3, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 3, 2019 B1 in Apple Green? I saw one not so long ago, at Twyford... not sure about the authenticity of the white discs/high intensity lamp though! 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 61306 was a originally a Hull Botanic engine and turned out new in Apple Green . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Popular Post ArthurK Posted December 3, 2019 RMweb Premium Popular Post Share Posted December 3, 2019 What do I remember? When you reach my age - quite a lot and it is mostly in colour. "Silver Link" in silver The "Coronation" in that beautiful blue livery. LNER locos in green pulling coaches in teak livery. After the war ended attempts were made to restore what had gone before. A4s reappeared in Garter blue but now with stainless steel numbers. Gresley Pacifics were again green as were the V2s and some lesser classes. Newcastle and York both got a "pet" 0-6-0T in green. The remnants of the "Coronation" and "West Riding" sets were split up and used in ordinary services. I lived an easy cycle ride from Blaydon engine shed. This formed the Southern servicing end loco on the Border Counties Line from Riccarton Junction on the Waverley Line. We got to see locos with wonderful names "Wandering Willie", "Hal O'the Wynd", "Dugald Dalgetty" and others. There was also the occasional Glen. The ECML within easy reach so visits to Low Fell became a must. One of the highlights of the afternoon was Leeds train invariably pulled by a pair of D49 "Hunt" class. But, alas, not in their prewar green livery. I spent a lot of holidays at Hull. My cousin and I used to meet up at York, spend a few hours there before proceeding to Hull. At York we met up with that interloper, the LMS. Here I had my first glimpse of LMS red, but why was it always "Galatea" on the Leeds train? Another first was a Midland Compound No. 1023 in red, which although stationary, was producing the blackest smoke that I have ever seen. Does that count a colour memory? I have not ,as yet, mentioned the hard working goods locos hauling their loads of coal from mines to docks. Yes they were dirty unless you were lucky to see one ex works. Perhaps it's because of dirt and grime that I remember them. One thing I do remember is the appearance of the WD 0-6-0Ts in Khaki livery with hastily painted "LNER" and number on a black panel. The first WD 2-8-0s arrived about the same time. Many of these were overhauled at the Scotswood factory of Vickers Armstrong. They then moved across the Tyne tp Blaydon shed before being sent to sheds nationwide. As a result I was witness to a succession of shiny black WDs. I don't think that can be many that can say that. ArthurK 20 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecorbusier Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, ArthurK said: I have not ,as yet, mentioned the hard working goods locos hauling their loads of coal from mines to docks. Yes they were dirty unless you were lucky to see one ex works. Perhaps it's because of dirt and grime that I remember them. ArthurK But even when dirty ... they passed through a landscape (however industrial) of colour. All the photos however are black and white. So we never get a proper feel for the reality of what it must have been like ..... a bit like we have a complete misconception of gothic cathedrals which back in the day were a riot of painted colour not austere stone. It is for this reason I think that I like photo's of model railways to be colour .... it gives some inkling of what must have been and acts as a counterbalance to the countless books of photos. Why shoot models in black and white unless you are looking for an 'art' shot? .... when you can go to the photos of the real thing for that. Edited December 4, 2019 by Lecorbusier 6 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted December 4, 2019 Author Share Posted December 4, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, Chamby said: B1 in Apple Green? I saw one not so long ago, at Twyford... not sure about the authenticity of the white discs/high intensity lamp though! Excellent pictures, Thank you. Having been commissioned to write the Books of the B1s (at least two) for Irwell, I've started my research. As usual, the works of the RCTS and Yeadon are being consulted. Unfortunately, neither lists the dates of livery variations for the individual B1s (which would be far more useful to modellers than boiler numbers), but it's clear that many B1s were turned out in apple green, brand new, post-War, including batches built for BR from 1948 onward (the last-mentioned with 'British Railways' on their tenders). Some had just their LNER numbers (1274-1287) some had an 'E' prefix to their LNER number (E1288-E1303) and some had their full BR number (61304-61339, the last built in September 1948). Later ones were turned out in black and the last ones in full BR lined black. How long any B1s remained in apple green post-Nationalisation is something I've got to research. Earlier-built locos also received apple green at their first repaint. What's the painting time regime for a loco. Three years? Four years? More? I'm certain it's the early '50s before the last B1s went into black (hence my childhood memories of seeing them in green), though does anyone know which was the last one? Changing the subject, it's one of my roles these days to write the book reviews for BRM. What's surprising (or is it?) is the number of B&W pictorial volumes which are being produced, mostly showing the BR steam period. A few are in colour (occasionally indifferent) but the vast majority is in monochrome (some also indifferent). What concerns me is the 'accuracy' or otherwise of several of the captions. Dates clearly wrong, locations clearly wrong, locos/stock identifications clearly wrong, directions clearly wrong (for instance, how can the Harwich-Liverpool boat train, heading westwards across the flat crossing at Retford towards Sheffield be going to Hull?) and so on. Have so many mistakes always been there in railway books? Grammatical proof-reading won't correct these sort of things, though SIR RALPH WEDGEWOOD (note the superfluous 'E') should have been intercepted. What's also disappointing, is that in some cases (very few to be fair) publishers, on seeing my 'corrections', either refuse to send new books for review or threaten to pull their advertising. Most, thankfully, are quite pleased with what I write - I try to be positive. I accept that everything I've ever written probably has a blooper or two in it, and are my reviews always accurate? However, with much 'incorrect' material out there (along with much which is excellent, to be fair) what hope is there for future historical 'accuracy' in our modelling? Regards, Tony. Edited December 4, 2019 by Tony Wright typo error 4 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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