Wright writes.....

[DaveF]

26 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Tony,

 

 

 

However, again I have a question about the livery. My understanding is that the use of ‘3’s on doors and (most) lining ended pre (or during?) the war. If I’m right, then while you could get away with ‘LNER’ on the sides up until the early ‘50s, the doors need some attention and the lining needs weathering away. Personally I prefer to use the limited editions of British Railways liveried teak Gresleys which Hornby did a few years ago with no ‘LNER’ and ‘E’ numbers as seen here on my layout. Gresley Jn.

 

 

 

 

Andy

 

PS I love the D&S stock. I’m really hoping that Danny will reintroduce some of his NE carriages as several came south.

 

 

A selective quote above to avoid taking up too much space.

 

I too had always thought that "3" on LNER carriage doors ended at the latest during the war.

 

Then some time ago I came across this photo which Dad had noted as being taken by him at Cambridge in 1948 when he was there as a student.

 

It is something of a mystery to me.

 

Cambridge F6 7236 ecs 1948 JVol1219

 

 

David

Edited February 19, 2020 by DaveF

[micklner]

I doubt very much if the 3's were removed until the coaches went into work for maintenance. They probably lasted on most vehicles until BR repainted them . New stock ,which would be Thompsons only would never have had them , they had No 1's fitted to the windows, as below as well as the door(s).

 

[Richard Jones]

On 18/02/2020 at 07:53, Tony Wright said:

Lovely stuff, Jesse,

 

Thanks for posting. 

 

However, please paint those coach roofs grey/black. 

 

And now for something completely different! 

 

 

 

My ignorance of this particular loco was absolute. It's a London Brighton & South Coast Railway 'Dieppe' Class 2-2-2 (has such a thing ever appeared before on RMweb?), built in EM Gauge. 

 

It was lined (though not painted) by Geoff Haynes, and I've taken pictures of it for his portfolio.

 

I thought I'd share them on here.........

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

 

 

Hi Tony,

Sorry, not a first...

Burgundy wrote an extensive thread (Mr Craven's engines - LBSCR 1870s) when he built his loco from the same kit, and I used his experience when building this one for a gentleman who lives in Midhurst and has a layout of the same name based pre 1880 (ie before the new station built for the Chichester to Midhurst line) -  see The LBSCR Modellers' Digest no. 6, 7 and 10

Burgundy's model is beautifully finished in Stroudley's Improved Engine Green, however "Chichester" is trying to capture J C Craven's livery - although I put the base coat on, my painting skills are far behind Mr Haynes'.

The loco is a bit of a cheat, as 172 "Chichester" was not a Dieppe class loco, but the model is intended to capture the essence of that loco without having to scratch build something.

The challenge with this type of loco in 4mm scale is getting enough adhesion so that it can haul itself, and a train, along!

Best wishes

Richard

 

[Tony Wright]

29 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Tony,

 

I’ve been meaning to respond to this since Friday, but I’ve been away and time/ WiFi have not been available simultaneously to manage one. The thread has moved on since then, but I hope you’ll forgive me pulling it back.

 

Your ‘RTR’ train certainly looks good, but it got me thinking about post war liveries so I did a bit of research. I’m surprised by the choice of engine. My understanding is that only the two royal D16s were painted green after the war and indeed in 62618’s case, Yeadon states that it was in wartime black until Oct 1949, by which time it would have presumably not have had ‘LNER’ on the tender. I know Yeadon is not perfect, but he normally gets this sort of thing right. Also as one of the Royal engines, I would have thought it was an unlikely loco for a local train on the M&GN. You might be better off with one of Hornby’s excellent black version, but even then I suspect you’d need to add tablet catching apparatus for the M&GN.

 

With regard to the Hornby Gresleys, I’ve always taken the view that their ‘tubbiness’ is made up for by all the other detail and the finish which is better than I could achieve. I’d rather spend my effort in producing models of the 100+ diagrams which Hornby don’t produce (especially catering and end vestibule stock) rather than the six which they do.  This is especially true in teak and yours look good - the weathering certainly makes them look less like toy trains.

 

However, again I have a question about the livery. My understanding is that the use of ‘3’s on doors and (most) lining ended pre (or during?) the war. If I’m right, then while you could get away with ‘LNER’ on the sides up until the early ‘50s, the doors need some attention and the lining needs weathering away. Personally I prefer to use the limited editions of British Railways liveried teak Gresleys which Hornby did a few years ago with no ‘LNER’ and ‘E’ numbers as seen here on my layout. Gresley Jn.

 

 

These were available initially as part of train packs (Kingfisher and Olympics) and they then did the FK,RB and SLF separately. They are available second hand from time to time.

 

I know that I need lamps for the loco (this has since been rectified) and having seen yours, the coaches and loco will now enter the weathering shop.

 

I send this email in the spirit of learning and I’ll be genuinely interested in the responses as I have a few vehicles with ‘3’s on the doors which I don’t run while waiting attention.

 

Andy

 

PS I love the D&S stock. I’m really hoping that Danny will reintroduce some of his NE carriages as several came south.

Good morning Andy,

 

Rumbled, as usual!

 

The D16/3 is rather a work of fiction, with regard to the livery especially. To be right for the period, it should be in apple green but numbered/branded as a BR loco. It was done as a guinea pig for Geoff Haynes with regard to weathering. I won't be keeping it too long, because I'm building a 'proper' D16/3, complete with decorative valances; No. 2573, as seen on page 20 in M&GN In Focus, by M D Beckett and P R Hemnell, Becknell Books, 1980. The loco is seen leaving Bourne, heading eastwards towards Little Bytham on a rake of LMS carriages. I acquired a Mallard kit for a D16/3, and I'll be making that before too long - there's no way RTR locos will be tolerated, even on the little bit of LB! 

 

As for the carriages, it could well be that '3' remained on the doors on some examples post-War. At the risk of sounding flippant, I'm not too fussed if they're dead right or not. They just about suit the purpose, but, if I were building Gresleys in teak (which I really should, not being reliant on the porcine and inaccurate Hornby ones), then I'd make sure I'd do the research and get them 'right' - as, I hope, I do with regard to the main line rakes.  

 

I'm afraid, other than by complete rebuilding (etched sides on donors, etc), the limitations/inaccuracies of Hornby's Gresleys render them rather unsuitable for my use (apart from the two illustrated, which might just be temporary, anyway). 

 

If you can live with them in long rakes, then that's fine.

 

Regards,

 

Tony

[Tony Wright]

Actually, Hornby's D16/3 is really a very good model.........

 

 

 

 

I reviewed it in BRM when it first came out........

 

 

 

With a top weathering job (Tom Foster), then it's brought to life. 

 

This is Ian Wilson's loco, which I've just detailed prior to Tom weathering it. 

 

It doesn't generally see service on LB, but it's very realistic. 

 

 

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, thegreenhowards said:

Tony,

 

I’ve been meaning to respond to this since Friday, but I’ve been away and time/ WiFi have not been available simultaneously to manage one. The thread has moved on since then, but I hope you’ll forgive me pulling it back.

 

Your ‘RTR’ train certainly looks good, but it got me thinking about post war liveries so I did a bit of research. I’m surprised by the choice of engine. My understanding is that only the two royal D16s were painted green after the war and indeed in 62618’s case, Yeadon states that it was in wartime black until Oct 1949, by which time it would have presumably not have had ‘LNER’ on the tender. I know Yeadon is not perfect, but he normally gets this sort of thing right. Also as one of the Royal engines, I would have thought it was an unlikely loco for a local train on the M&GN. You might be better off with one of Hornby’s excellent black version, but even then I suspect you’d need to add tablet catching apparatus for the M&GN.

 

With regard to the Hornby Gresleys, I’ve always taken the view that their ‘tubbiness’ is made up for by all the other detail and the finish which is better than I could achieve. I’d rather spend my effort in producing models of the 100+ diagrams which Hornby don’t produce (especially catering and end vestibule stock) rather than the six which they do.  This is especially true in teak and yours look good - the weathering certainly makes them look less like toy trains.

 

However, again I have a question about the livery. My understanding is that the use of ‘3’s on doors and (most) lining ended pre (or during?) the war. If I’m right, then while you could get away with ‘LNER’ on the sides up until the early ‘50s, the doors need some attention and the lining needs weathering away. Personally I prefer to use the limited editions of British Railways liveried teak Gresleys which Hornby did a few years ago with no ‘LNER’ and ‘E’ numbers as seen here on my layout. Gresley Jn.

 

 

These were available initially as part of train packs (Kingfisher and Olympics) and they then did the FK,RB and SLF separately. They are available second hand from time to time.

 

I know that I need lamps for the loco (this has since been rectified) and having seen yours, the coaches and loco will now enter the weathering shop.

 

I send this email in the spirit of learning and I’ll be genuinely interested in the responses as I have a few vehicles with ‘3’s on the doors which I don’t run while waiting attention.

 

Andy

 

PS I love the D&S stock. I’m really hoping that Danny will reintroduce some of his NE carriages as several came south.

 

Morning Andy,

 

shame on you, get your tools and paint out, the fearful uniformity of the teak finish and oddly coloured plastic roof belongs on a shop shelf. Incidentally, hiding the worst of the flabby bits behind the parapet of a viaduct doesn't make them any better as models.

 

41 minutes ago, micklner said:

I doubt very much if the 3's were removed until the coaches went into work for maintenance. They probably lasted on most vehicles until BR repainted them . New stock ,which would be Thompsons only would never have had them , they had No 1's fitted to the windows, as below as well as the door(s).

 

 

Morning Mick,

 

the overwhelming majority of carriages had the third class designation removed and not just at works visits. There is some evidence that steel panelled carriages, as pictured above, were not always so treated, in order to better preserve the teak paint finish. It is also possible that the carriage above is a post-war referb, hence the immaculate roof.

[CF MRC]

As a change of topic, but still ECML, here we have the first ever photo view of the front of the Cemetery Building at Belle Isle in this film clip. We have only been looking for this for 37 years - however it doesn’t show any detail...

The layout will be at Ally Pally in a few weeks time, I think visitors will see a few changes, not least this:

Tim

Edited February 19, 2020 by CF MRC

[Tony Wright]

The dear old 3F is now complete........

 

 

 

Weathering, adding coal, fitting fire irons, installing a crew and fixing a lamp (ex-LMS, black) have finished the job.

 

Less than a month ago, I'd never have considered doing this, but Trevor Page's generous gift of the loco in the first place made it imperative my finishing it. 

 

In case there are too many 'hostile' comments as to how an S&DJR-allocated 3F came to be running through LB, I've kept the original number out of deference to the original builder and Trevor's dad. I didn't repaint it, just patch-painted it and weathered it. 

 

Speaking of weathering, I cannot understand how folk, seeking realism in their modelling, don't weather their locos/stock - from quite-heavy (like this) to soot-stains on the tops of boilers and carriages. Their choice, but not accurate.

 

And, just for good measure, I've sold the original EM 3F chassis, all proceeds going to CRUK.

 

Thanks again, Trevor. 

 

 

[Headstock]

44 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

The dear old 3F is now complete........

 

 

 

Weathering, adding coal, fitting fire irons, installing a crew and fixing a lamp (ex-LMS, black) have finished the job.

 

Less than a month ago, I'd never have considered doing this, but Trevor Page's generous gift of the loco in the first place made it imperative my finishing it. 

 

In case there are too many 'hostile' comments as to how an S&DJR-allocated 3F came to be running through LB, I've kept the original number out of deference to the original builder and Trevor's dad. I didn't repaint it, just patch-painted it and weathered it. 

 

Speaking of weathering, I cannot understand how folk, seeking realism in their modelling, don't weather their locos/stock - from quite-heavy (like this) to soot-stains on the tops of boilers and carriages. Their choice, but not accurate.

 

And, just for good measure, I've sold the original EM 3F chassis, all proceeds going to CRUK.

 

Thanks again, Trevor. 

 

 

 

Good afternoon Tony,

 

I find it heartening that a one time S&D 3F has found a new home, one where it can earn its keep. As usual, Its 'rehabilitation' has been rather skilfully executed, the finish is very effective.

[micklner]

4 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

 

 

 

 

Morning Mick,

 

the overwhelming majority of carriages had the third class designation removed and not just at works visits. There is some evidence that steel panelled carriages, as pictured above, were not always so treated, in order to better preserve the teak paint finish. It is also possible that the carriage above is a post-war referb, hence the immaculate roof.

Andrew

I will admit I have'nt looked as photos of post war Gresley Coaches around 1945-1948 era of which I presume there are not many around  , if there are are, please tell me where ?.

I cannot see the logic in scraping  the number 3's off as they were transfers, and wrecking the finish at the same time . I wonder why they bothered , perhaps another Thompson novel idea of how to waste money !!.

 

cheers

 

Mick

[jwealleans]

There is a superb portrait (I think in LNER in Transition) of a corridor Gresley which has been through works after the war and had the full treatment.  Even in black and white it really stands out - it must have been like a beacon in a sea of shabby, tired stock at that time.

 

I hadn't ever explicitly thought about it but I'd have assumed the '3' would have been reinstated after wartime economy ended.   I'll ask in the LNER Society; the Seabrook collection which we've just finished scanning may give some pointers.

[lee74clarke]

4 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Actually, Hornby's D16/3 is really a very good model.........

 

 

 

 

I reviewed it in BRM when it first came out........

 

 

 

With a top weathering job (Tom Foster), then it's brought to life. 

 

This is Ian Wilson's loco, which I've just detailed prior to Tom weathering it. 

 

It doesn't generally see service on LB, but it's very realistic. 

 

 

Good Afternoon Tony,

 

I trust you are well?

I saw an undated black & white photo recently of D16/3 62614 at Hunstanton, early BR emblem on tender, with the description as 'lined passenger green'. Do I read thegreenhowards post correctly, that the green is LNER green, rather than darker 'BR' green? I have never seen a colour photo of the BR green D16's, and have often wondered.

 

Best Regards,

Lee

 

[stewartingram]

626614 was one of the Royal pair, shedded at Cambridge, and hence in LNER green with BR insignia, according to various photos I've seen in the past.

 

Stewart

[TrevorP1]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

The dear old 3F is now complete........

 

 

 

Weathering, adding coal, fitting fire irons, installing a crew and fixing a lamp (ex-LMS, black) have finished the job.

 

Less than a month ago, I'd never have considered doing this, but Trevor Page's generous gift of the loco in the first place made it imperative my finishing it. 

 

In case there are too many 'hostile' comments as to how an S&DJR-allocated 3F came to be running through LB, I've kept the original number out of deference to the original builder and Trevor's dad. I didn't repaint it, just patch-painted it and weathered it. 

 

Speaking of weathering, I cannot understand how folk, seeking realism in their modelling, don't weather their locos/stock - from quite-heavy (like this) to soot-stains on the tops of boilers and carriages. Their choice, but not accurate.

 

And, just for good measure, I've sold the original EM 3F chassis, all proceeds going to CRUK.

 

Thanks again, Trevor. 

 

 

The thanks should be from me Tony. You have rescued the poor thing and given it a good home. I can look at that and think of my Dad. Wonderful beyond my ability to put into words. 

[Headstock]

58 minutes ago, micklner said:

Andrew

I will admit I have'nt looked as photos of post war Gresley Coaches around 1945-1948 era of which I presume there are not many around  , if there are are, please tell me where ?.

I cannot see the logic in scraping  the number 3's off as they were transfers, and wrecking the finish at the same time . I wonder why they bothered , perhaps another Thompson novel idea of how to waste money !!.

 

cheers

 

Mick

 

Afternoon Mick,

 

There are plenty of images around, just that period is generally ignored.

 

you forget, the entire LNER carriage fleet was renumbered in 1943. There was much scrapping, patch painting and experimenting with numbers that predated the BR scheme, be it in works or out of works. Though, it has to be said, the big four were somewhat in cahoots when it came to some oddly BR like, pre nationalization branding, not officially adopted until 1948.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Headstock
add info

[LNERandBR]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

In case there are too many 'hostile' comments as to how an S&DJR-allocated 3F came to be running through LB, I've kept the original number out of deference to the original builder and Trevor's dad. I didn't repaint it, just patch-painted it and weathered it. 

 

Out of interest, any idea which 3F's did work on the M&GN? 

[mullie]

1 hour ago, lee74clarke said:

Good Afternoon Tony,

 

I trust you are well?

I saw an undated black & white photo recently of D16/3 62614 at Hunstanton, early BR emblem on tender, with the description as 'lined passenger green'. Do I read thegreenhowards post correctly, that the green is LNER green, rather than darker 'BR' green? I have never seen a colour photo of the BR green D16's, and have often wondered.

 

Best Regards,

Lee

 

There is a colour photo of 62614 formerly 8783 in green at Kings Lynn during 1950 in Steam In East Anglia by R C Riley page 56. By 1952 both were black according to the caption.

 

Martyn

Edited February 19, 2020 by mullie

[Tony Wright]

51 minutes ago, TrevorP1 said:

The thanks should be from me Tony. You have rescued the poor thing and given it a good home. I can look at that and think of my Dad. Wonderful beyond my ability to put into words. 

Thanks Trevor,

 

I love models like this. Someone has taken the time to originally make it, and it deserved to be turned into a fully-working model. 

 

As a 'layout loco' on LB, it had to look 'natural'; hence the heavy-weathering. Looking at prototype pictures, poor old 3Fs in the period were rarely, if ever, cleaned, and this one was typical - very typical. 

 

So, many thanks, again.

 

Kind regards,

 

Tony.  

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, lee74clarke said:

Good Afternoon Tony,

 

I trust you are well?

I saw an undated black & white photo recently of D16/3 62614 at Hunstanton, early BR emblem on tender, with the description as 'lined passenger green'. Do I read thegreenhowards post correctly, that the green is LNER green, rather than darker 'BR' green? I have never seen a colour photo of the BR green D16's, and have often wondered.

 

Best Regards,

Lee

 

Very well, thank you, Lee.

 

I trust you and yours are, too.

 

As far as I know, no D16 was ever painted BR Brunswick green. Not all were painted in the fully-lined mixed traffic LNWR-style black, either; they retained just plain black. 

 

The type was regular on the M&GNR through Bytham, at least in the early '50s. One old fireman I spoke with at Spalding some little time ago thought them 'lovely engines'. 

 

I wonder if their ghosts still pass over Station Road?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

31 minutes ago, LNERandBR said:

 

Out of interest, any idea which 3F's did work on the M&GN? 

I've never seen a picture of one on the M&GN.

 

However, they were very similar to the 'Midlandised' indigenous 0-6-0s.

 

Since 4Fs from the Nottingham/Leicester districts passed daily through Little Bytham, might it reasonable to assume that 3Fs from those centres might have ventured east as well? Possibilities (from the mid-'50s) include....

43192, 43205, 43222, 43232, 43239, 43240, 43242, 43244, 43249, 43287, 43313, 43326, 43333, 43367, 43369, 43371, 43378, 43401, 43411, 43431, 43468, 43474, 43522, 43531, 43558, 43596, 43629, 43637, 43665, 43676, 43710, 43711, 43721, 43727, 43728, 43729, 43753, 43766, 43773, 43785, 43790, 43799, 43806, 43808, and 43829. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[thegreenhowards]

8 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Andy,

 

Rumbled, as usual!

 

The D16/3 is rather a work of fiction, with regard to the livery especially. To be right for the period, it should be in apple green but numbered/branded as a BR loco. It was done as a guinea pig for Geoff Haynes with regard to weathering. I won't be keeping it too long, because I'm building a 'proper' D16/3, complete with decorative valances; No. 2573, as seen on page 20 in M&GN In Focus, by M D Beckett and P R Hemnell, Becknell Books, 1980. The loco is seen leaving Bourne, heading eastwards towards Little Bytham on a rake of LMS carriages. I acquired a Mallard kit for a D16/3, and I'll be making that before too long - there's no way RTR locos will be tolerated, even on the little bit of LB! 

 

As for the carriages, it could well be that '3' remained on the doors on some examples post-War. At the risk of sounding flippant, I'm not too fussed if they're dead right or not. They just about suit the purpose, but, if I were building Gresleys in teak (which I really should, not being reliant on the porcine and inaccurate Hornby ones), then I'd make sure I'd do the research and get them 'right' - as, I hope, I do with regard to the main line rakes.  

 

I'm afraid, other than by complete rebuilding (etched sides on donors, etc), the limitations/inaccuracies of Hornby's Gresleys render them rather unsuitable for my use (apart from the two illustrated, which might just be temporary, anyway). 

 

If you can live with them in long rakes, then that's fine.

 

Regards,

 

Tony

I look forward to the ‘proper’ D16/3 - they look much more distinctive with the valance. Is there any way of telling which locos had valances and which didn’t in BR days other than finding a photo? Yeadon doesn’t seem to provide a list.

 

Andy

 

 

[burgundy]

On 18/02/2020 at 07:53, Tony Wright said:

 

 

 

 

My ignorance of this particular loco was absolute. It's a London Brighton & South Coast Railway 'Dieppe' Class 2-2-2 (has such a thing ever appeared before on RMweb?), built in EM Gauge. 

 

It was lined (though not painted) by Geoff Haynes, and I've taken pictures of it for his portfolio.

 

I thought I'd share them on here.........

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

 

 

As Richard has pointed out, there are two different Craven singles, Dieppe and Polegate, described on the thread entitled Mr Craven's Engines.  And both are EM gauge!

The original Craven livery on Chichester is rather striking though. 

Best wishes 

Eric 

Edited February 19, 2020 by burgundy
images added

[Northroader]

You can have Craven single tank engines as well.

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, burgundy said:

As Richard has pointed out, there are two different Craven singles, Dieppe and Polegate, described on the thread entitled Mr Craven's Engines.  And both are EM gauge!

The original Craven livery on Chichester is rather striking though. 

Best wishes 

Eric 

Many thanks,

 

And these have got all tender wheels on the track!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

I look forward to the ‘proper’ D16/3 - they look much more distinctive with the valance. Is there any way of telling which locos had valances and which didn’t in BR days other than finding a photo? Yeadon doesn’t seem to provide a list.

 

Andy

 

 

Only by photos, Andy,

 

The last one, 62613, retained its decorative valances to the end.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.