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Tony Wright

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2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I hope I can live up to the weight of your expectation, Andrew..................

 

Having discussed the format with Chris Hawkins yesterday, I hope that the books (at least two) of the B1s will be different from what's gone before. I don't mean 'better', but different. For instance, there will not be build dates and scrapping dates for each loco. Allocations will be mentioned where they're pertinent to a working. 

 

For instance...........

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_12/1776047406_6107901.jpg.cdd210bd8d434a74beaca8011eb22409.jpg

 

Let's examine this brilliant shot taken at Peterborough in the late '50s (my date guess here). Not too late, because the loco isn't fitted with AWS (checking will have to be done to make sure it ever was fitted). The loco is shedded at Immingham, so it's reasonable to assume that it's probably a Kings Cross-Cleethorpes express (or at least a train for the East Lincs line). Prior to the introduction of the Brits, B1s had these expresses. But, what an express. I can find this consist in none of my BR documents. In it, one can make out a pressure-ventilated FK (the third car), ex-one of the post-War 'Scotsman' sets. There are at least three BR Mk.1s, plus a Thompson CK, as well as Gresley stock, including a late-build all-door TK. My guess it's a summer Saturday service. 

 

 

Kings Cross-Skeggy on 19/7/58 according to Colour Rail.

 

Simon

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2 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

I'm afraid that I'm not convinced. I see the upper surface of the coach beading reflecting the light - as is the edge of the roof and the upper surface of the boiler handrail of the loco.

 

I am equally dubious about whether of not the coaches are lined - at least on the waistline. If they are unlined, they're the first unlined maroon coaches carrying roundels that I've ever come across; .... and as for exposed stainless steel beading on a maroon coach?

 

When it comes to captions, less is often more. If you can't point to irrefutable proof for everything stated, it's best left out.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

John,

 

I should have mentioned that my conclusion is based on the lower picture on page 65 of LNER Carriages by Michael Harris. This shows the twin 1sts (in the train in the picture of the B1) In maroon, BR roundel, definitely not lined and stainless steel strip (it would appear) evident. 'If they are unlined, they're the first unlined maroon coaches carrying roundels that I've ever come across;'. You've come across them now. 

 

'Less is often more'? And, what constitutes 'irrefutable proof'? My friend, David Lowther, photographed some of the streamliners being broken up at Tyne Dock in the early-'60s. I'm basing my conclusions on his pictures and his observations. First-hand observations. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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10 minutes ago, 65179 said:

Kings Cross-Skeggy on 19/7/58 according to Colour Rail.

 

Simon

Many thanks Simon,

 

Was the 19/7/58 a Saturday? If not, I still can't find this formation in any of my documents.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Many thanks Simon,

 

Was the 19/7/58 a Saturday? If not, I still can't find this formation in any of my documents.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Evening Tony,


I don't see anything special about the formation, nice shot, not the most interesting train. If it is a Saturday KX - Skeggy train, then it is a random bunch of thirds (second) and a bit of first class, quite in line with the 1958 CWN. I notice that first class is often designated as second class in these trains, presumably because they worked other services earlier as first class. The leading carriage could be a BCK, this type is in one of the Skeg trains as are Thompson CK's in others, both are labelled as for use of second class but for the Skeg service only.

 

P.s. The lamp brackets on the B1 are not the tall type.

Edited by Headstock
add info and clarify a point.

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With respect Tony, 61071 is not in full forward gear - in fact she is well linked up, the eccentric rod is close to the centre of the expansion link.  A driver wouldn't put her into full gear when running through like that, but maybe down to 45% or so.

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1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

When it comes to captions, less is often more. If you can't point to irrefutable proof for everything stated, it's best left out.

 

I beg to differ. Even if you're not sure, I think it's worth including a best guess provided that it's labelled as such. That may set someone else on the path to discovering what the train/ location/ etc. really is. The problem comes when guesses are stated as definitive facts and then repeated. That's definitely not 'Sir's' style.

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2 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

I beg to differ. Even if you're not sure, I think it's worth including a best guess provided that it's labelled as such. That may set someone else on the path to discovering what the train/ location/ etc. really is. The problem comes when guesses are stated as definitive facts and then repeated. That's definitely not 'Sir's' style.

 

Morning Andy,

 

I disagree, I don't subscribe to best guest scenario with my modelling, Why should I except it in books? If research is done properly then there should be no need of best guessing. That should be a point of discussion before publication. Personally, I would never use a photo that I didn't understand the meaning of. One of the problems with Railway picture books is that the picture is the tail wagging the dog, it should be the other way about. Were by the picture is used to illustrates the point that is being made in the text. We are so use to dealing with pictures in books with poor guessing game captions, that it never occurs to us that we should be demanding truth and cold hard facts. Even a small move towards greater academic credibility would not go amiss. At the end of the day, such stuff is just poor research.

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8 hours ago, New Haven Neil said:

With respect Tony, 61071 is not in full forward gear - in fact she is well linked up, the eccentric rod is close to the centre of the expansion link.  A driver wouldn't put her into full gear when running through like that, but maybe down to 45% or so.

With respect Neil,

 

Don't you mean the radius rod? The eccentric rod's position never moves, because the expansion link is a fixed pivot (or that's my understanding).

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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9 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Evening Tony,


I don't see anything special about the formation, nice shot, not the most interesting train. If it is a Saturday KX - Skeggy train, then it is a random bunch of thirds (second) and a bit of first class, quite in line with the 1958 CWN. I notice that first class is often designated as second class in these trains, presumably because they worked other services earlier as first class. The leading carriage could be a BCK, this type is in one of the Skeg trains as are Thompson CK's in others, both are labelled as for use of second class but for the Skeg service only.

 

P.s. The lamp brackets on the B1 are not the tall type.

Nothing special? Not the most interesting train? It's probably the only time in recorded history that this bunch of cars was ever coupled together in this manner. 

 

It interests me, especially if I chose to build something like this (though it would not have run through LB).

 

I did look hard at those brackets. You're probably right, but why are the lamps perched so high up?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited by Tony Wright
to clarify a point

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5 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Morning Andy,

 

I disagree, I don't subscribe to best guest scenario with my modelling, Why should I except it in books? If research is done properly then there should be no need of best guessing. That should be a point of discussion before publication. Personally, I would never use a photo that I didn't understand the meaning of. One of the problems with Railway picture books is that the picture is the tail wagging the dog, it should be the other way about. Were by the picture is used to illustrates the point that is being made in the text. We are so use to dealing with pictures in books with poor guessing game captions, that it never occurs to us that we should be demanding truth and cold hard facts. Even a small move towards greater academic credibility would not go amiss. At the end of the day, such stuff is just poor research.

You're not asking for much, Andrew,

 

As far as I know, the book(s) you demand have never been published. Or, because of what you insist upon, WILL never be published. 

 

However, I'm entirely in agreement that there are too many railway books printed with captions that are just nonsense. 

 

And, what's wrong with a little bit of 'best-guessing', as long as that's made clear in the caption. I'd never state it as definitive fact (or is that tautology?). For instance, John Isherwood made a very valid observation about my caption to the 'Fife Coast Express' picture. It's the first time I've ever seen a shot of the rake in maroon, and (I would suggest) it's not lined. This is substantiated by the picture in the book I cited, and my access to the (unpublished) pictures. Yet, I've never seen the lack of lining ever mentioned before in any publication/official document. The 'water is muddied' by the fact that the ex-Silver Jubilee dining triplet WAS lined in maroon, and any horizontal stainless steel beading was painted over. Yet, again, I've never seen that recorded.

 

I'm basing my conclusions on observations. Observations of photographs (from years ago). Out of necessity, some conclusions will have to be (educated?) guesswork. 

 

And, when you build a model, do you use dozens of pictures of the individual carriage/loco you're making? Top, bottom, sides, ends, underneath, three quarter front, three quarter rear, etc? I try to, but I've never come across umpteen pictures, all taken on the same day, from every single angle of an individual item - not even works' shots. So, at least to me, some educated guesses have to be made. 

 

Recently, I've gone through pictures and found a 'Princess Royal' with ROUND front buffers, an Ivatt 2-6-0 2MT with OVAL front buffers (were they swopped at CREWE?) and a Scottish Director with one round and one oval buffer on its front beam. Yet, I've never seen these recorded before. How can one describe such things without 'guessing' how they came about?

 

I admire your zeal!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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I look forward to the "Book of Backgrounds" in which each caption discusses everything to be seen in the photo except the locomotive, which is to be regarded as a nuisance obscuring the view of some interesting feature. One might, at a pinch, give the locomotive number and date so the reader can, if they wish, look up full details of its condition elsewhere.

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If a good or interesting picture exists .... which may show something of interest to many or a detail in particular clarity .... should this not be made available by publication because there is doubt about some other aspect? ... and if there is doubt but an informed suggestion can be offered, should this also be rejected - after all it may well be correct. The critical thing surely is clarity of the status of the information imparted?

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6 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Morning Andy,

 

I disagree, I don't subscribe to best guest scenario with my modelling, Why should I except it in books? If research is done properly then there should be no need of best guessing. That should be a point of discussion before publication. Personally, I would never use a photo that I didn't understand the meaning of. One of the problems with Railway picture books is that the picture is the tail wagging the dog, it should be the other way about. Were by the picture is used to illustrates the point that is being made in the text. We are so use to dealing with pictures in books with poor guessing game captions, that it never occurs to us that we should be demanding truth and cold hard facts. Even a small move towards greater academic credibility would not go amiss. At the end of the day, such stuff is just poor research.

Morning Andrew,

 

That was a very early morning for you!

 

I admire your perfectionism and it certainly shines through in your models, but I think that this is a classic case of 'the best being the enemy of the good'. Railway modellers are often not good at compromise (I've had similar exchanges with Steve Banks!) but I feel that some educated guess work can help others make further strides in identifying the full data which we would all like - rather like the responses to Tony's original post have done. So let's take the B1 at Peterborough as an example. A little research has identified the date and the sun position tells us that it's morning, but more research is unlikely to ever identify exactly what train it was on, so we have two choices of types of caption:

1. The 'Wright' approach: B1, 61079 approaching Peterborough from the south on mixed rake of stock on Saturday 19th July 1958. Notably the rake includes a pressure-ventilated FK (the third car), ex-one of the post-War 'Scotsman' sets. It also includes three BR Mk.1s, plus a Thompson CK, as well as Gresley stock, including a late-build all-door TK.  The loco is shedded at Immingham, so it's reasonable to assume that it's probably a morning summer Saturday train from the southern end of the GN line to the East Lincs line (probably Skegness or Cleethorpes). Prior to the introduction of the Brits, B1s had these expresses.

2. The perfectionist approach: B1, 61079 approaches an unknown location hauling an unknown train on an unknown date. The loco was built in September 1946 and withdrawn in June 1962.

 

I'm exaggerating for effect and with a little effort some of the data could be established beyond reasonable doubt as this exchange proves. But one sees too many captions like the second one and I, for one, know which I prefer. I can then use my own judgement to fill in any gaps as I see fit.

 

Regards

 

Andy

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2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I look forward to the "Book of Backgrounds" in which each caption discusses everything to be seen in the photo except the locomotive, which is to be regarded as a nuisance obscuring the view of some interesting feature. One might, at a pinch, give the locomotive number and date so the reader can, if they wish, look up full details of its condition elsewhere.

The American magazine Classic Trains has been doing just that for several years. Each quarterly issue has a a double paged spread called, "What's in a Photo.". One page has the photo with several added numbers in red. The other page has captions for each of those numbers.  The current issue has 12 captions of which the loco is only mentioned as a passing refernce in one. The other 11 are all about background features and the railway infrastructure.  I always find them fascinating.  Knowing how Kalmbach (the publishers) work they will no doubt do a book of these features at some point.

 

Jamie

Edited by jamie92208
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6 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

The American magazine Classic Trains has been doing just that for several years. Each quarterly issue has a a double paged spread called, "What's in a Photo.". One page has the photo with several added numbers in red. The other page has caltions for each of those numbers.  The current issue has 12 captions of which the loco is only mentioned as a passi g refernce in one. The other 11 are all about bavkground features and the railway infratructure.  I always find them fascinating.  Knowing how Kalmbach (the publishers) work they will no doubt do a book of these features at some point.

 

Jamie

 

They are a very interesting part of each magazine. I've mentioned before that I've never seen a UK railway photo taken on my birthday, or even a day or two either side of it, presumably because of a belt of poor weather in the country at the time, but one of those Classic Trains shots was taken on the day. That makes me "classic" I suppose.

 

Al

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I look forward to the "Book of Backgrounds" in which each caption discusses everything to be seen in the photo except the locomotive, which is to be regarded as a nuisance obscuring the view of some interesting feature. One might, at a pinch, give the locomotive number and date so the reader can, if they wish, look up full details of its condition elsewhere.

 

Yes, I've certainly been frustrated by a dull dirty train obscuring other details when trying to undertake research about a place. Even worse is when most of the picture is clouded out by huge amounts of steam and smoke escaping from the engine  . . . . . :D 

 

 

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I was told recently that Bob Essery would make no apology for re-using photos in Midland Record and LMS Journal - last time it was to illustrate an article on water columns, this time on buffer stops, etc. (Photos cropped for the particular detail, of course.)

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1 hour ago, thegreenhowards said:

I'm exaggerating for effect and with a little effort some of the data could be established beyond reasonable doubt as this exchange proves. But one sees too many captions like the second one and I, for one, know which I prefer. I can then use my own judgement to fill in any gaps as I see fit.

There's also an increasing trend towards:

 

- anthropomorphising the locomotive (never the rest of the train!), as in "the loco breathes a sigh of relief as it breasts the summit".

- I don't know the word for this but it's stuff like "little did they know that in ten years' time all this woudl be covered by a supermarket car park".

- Including personal opinion, as in "what a shame that this class was withdrawn at the expense of the xxx type".

- Presenting supposition as fact. This is, I think, what Tony is driving at and when I spot it it makes me doubt most other things that are written in the same publication.

 

I'm sorry to say that all these are becoming more common in one of the monthly magazines that claims to be a leading repository for British railway history (paraphrased). I still buy it, though, as the quality and selection of the photographs outweighs my annoyance with the words.

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Changing the Subject somewhat, here are some pictures of my latest completed project.

 

2E14EAC4-8731-4B92-9C47-4FE3BC7C5A99.jpeg.0a0fbffe818c6aab41f3450f88024b60.jpeg38B213DE-C7C0-40D5-945E-1218998196A9.jpeg.03ebc68468396773496888388d36bfcc.jpegIt’s a GCR bogie fish van built from a WSM kit. It was a bit of a struggle as it was made from thick brass which needed to be laminated together. It certainly tested my soldering iron’s power!


Only a few of these made it through to nationalisation, and I believe they were relegated to parcels traffic by that stage.  So I’ve finished it in LNER livery without fish branding and will use it in a mixed van train. 
 

I had to guess a bit (tut tut!) so I’ve probably made some mistakes. Any comments welcome.

 

Andy

 

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I look forward to the "Book of Backgrounds" in which each caption discusses everything to be seen in the photo except the locomotive, which is to be regarded as a nuisance obscuring the view of some interesting feature. One might, at a pinch, give the locomotive number and date so the reader can, if they wish, look up full details of its condition elsewhere.

Hi Stephen

 

Why do railway drivers park their steeds in front of the photographer when he wants to take a photo of that interesting structure. When building Hanging Hill there was always something I couldn't quite see owing to a loco being in the way no matter how many photos of that loco shed I could find.

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4 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

There's also an increasing trend towards:

 

- anthropomorphising the locomotive (never the rest of the train!), as in "the loco breathes a sigh of relief as it breasts the summit".

- I don't know the word for this but it's stuff like "little did they know that in ten years' time all this woudl be covered by a supermarket car park".

- Including personal opinion, as in "what a shame that this class was withdrawn at the expense of the xxx type".

- Presenting supposition as fact. This is, I think, what Tony is driving at and when I spot it it makes me doubt most other things that are written in the same publication.

 

 

An interesting observation and yes, it does seem true. I guess they're trying to say something (perhaps nothing much) in a different way from previously to add variety. Snag is that it is becoming the norm.

 

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3 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Stephen

 

Why do railway drivers park their steeds in front of the photographer when he wants to take a photo of that interesting structure. When building Hanging Hill there was always something I couldn't quite see owing to a loco being in the way no matter how many photos of that loco shed I could find.

 

Yes, I know. The photographer has carefully set up his camera to take a photo of the luggage barrow on the opposite platform and then blow me along comes the up Queen of Scots with some hulking great green obstruction at the head...

 

Pre-grouping photos are particularly annoying. Not only do the crew take great malicious delight in parking their engine in the centre of the shot but they then stand on the footplate, grinning away.

 

"Oi, move that b****y loco!"

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14 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

John,

 

I should have mentioned that my conclusion is based on the lower picture on page 65 of LNER Carriages by Michael Harris. This shows the twin 1sts (in the train in the picture of the B1) In maroon, BR roundel, definitely not lined and stainless steel strip (it would appear) evident. 'If they are unlined, they're the first unlined maroon coaches carrying roundels that I've ever come across;'. You've come across them now. 

 

'Less is often more'? And, what constitutes 'irrefutable proof'? My friend, David Lowther, photographed some of the streamliners being broken up at Tyne Dock in the early-'60s. I'm basing my conclusions on his pictures and his observations. First-hand observations. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Having consulted Harris, I concur with your analysis of the photo and with the caption, and apologise for doubting you.

 

The point that I was trying to make is that, nowadays, far too many photo captions make bold statements that are in no way supported by the information contained in the photo itself. When those statements are based on research elsewhere there should be some indication of the fact, so that the reader can have confidence in the veracity of the caption.

 

Of course, a great many captions, especially in magazines, are just plain wrong - or as we plain-speaking Lancastrians would say - b*ll*cks !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited by cctransuk
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9 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Morning Andy,

 

I disagree, I don't subscribe to best guest scenario with my modelling, Why should I except it in books? If research is done properly then there should be no need of best guessing. That should be a point of discussion before publication. Personally, I would never use a photo that I didn't understand the meaning of. One of the problems with Railway picture books is that the picture is the tail wagging the dog, it should be the other way about. Were by the picture is used to illustrates the point that is being made in the text. We are so use to dealing with pictures in books with poor guessing game captions, that it never occurs to us that we should be demanding truth and cold hard facts. Even a small move towards greater academic credibility would not go amiss. At the end of the day, such stuff is just poor research.

Can't agree with you on this one, Andrew. Bad captioning and best guessing do irritate me but very often it's the photo that's the important thing here. It does provide evidence and at worst leads me to go away and do more research in an effort to a) identify the subject of the photo b) understand the context of the photo, and c) use it an an inspiration to bring something in to my modelling that wouldn't have been there. So whilst I sympathise with the ideal that no railway book writer should publish without fully understanding the subject, I'd still rather have the opportunity to see the photos to be able to use for my own research. I'd simply add, never trust implicitly, or take as fact, what you read without being able to back it up with other evidence/information.

 

No modelling today.. (sigh)... Off to family do and then on to a gig with the band tonight. Bit of pressure as we are doing some new numbers for the first time live and we haven't rehearsed enough. :o

Edited by Clem
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