Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

This evening I've done some direct comparison pictures between locos I've built and RTR equivalents. In some ways it could be said it's not an entirely fair set of comparisons, because none of the RTR locos is as-supplied; all have been worked on in several ways.

 

Anyway, here goes. I'll leave viewers to make their own conclusions (comments welcome, please).

 

 

A much-modified Bachmann A1 - rear loco footplate raised up, new bogie wheels, wiggly pipes, replacement etched brass smoke deflectors, a new identity and weathering by Ian Rathbone. 

 

 

 

A DJH A1, painted by Ian Rathbone.

 

 

A Bachmann A2 with similar alterations as to the A1; weathered by Tom Foster.

 

 

A DJH A2; painted by Ian Rathbone.

 

 

A Hornby A3 with several alterations/additions; weathered by Tom Wright.

 

 

A Wills/scratch/Jamieson A3; all my work, made in 1978. 

 

 

A DJH A3 with a K's tender; painted by Geoff Haynes.

 

 

A Hornby A4, detailed by me: painted by Ian Rathbone.

 

 

A Pro-Scale A4; painted by Ian Rathbone.

 

 

A Hornby Britannia with several alterations by me; weathered by Tom Wright.

 

 

A DJH Britannia; painted by Geoff Haynes. 

 

 

A Bachmann Austerity; weathered by me.

 

 

A DJH Austerity/painted/weathered by me.

 

 

A Hornby O1; altered/detailed/weathered by me.

 

 

A scratch-built O1 from 1977; painted/weathered by me.

 

 

A Heljan O2/3; detailed/altered by me, weathered by Geoff Haynes.

 

One of the problems in being a cat's servant, is that many of her hairs get everywhere - including on my models. In my attempt to remove one hair with a soft brush, I've dislodged the crossrail on the smokebox door. Heljan's handrail pillars on this model are far too weak. 

 

A Nu-Cast O2/3; painted/weathered by me. 

 

I think there's no doubt that (with a bit of work) visually, RTR locos are at least the equal of kit-built equivalents. However, out of all these models, only the Heljan O2/3 matches the pulling power of the kit-built equivalents.

 

Interesting? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[davidw]

4 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

This evening I've done some direct comparison pictures between locos I've built and RTR equivalents. In some ways it could be said it's not an entirely fair set of comparisons, because none of the RTR locos is as-supplied; all have been worked on in several ways.

 

Anyway, here goes. I'll leave viewers to make their own conclusions (comments welcome, please).

 

 

A much-modified Bachmann A1 - rear loco footplate raised up, new bogie wheels, wiggly pipes, replacement etched brass smoke deflectors, a new identity and weathering by Ian Rathbone. 

 

 

 

A DJH A1, painted by Ian Rathbone.

 

 

A Bachmann A2 with similar alterations as to the A1; weathered by Tom Foster.

 

 

A DJH A2; painted by Ian Rathbone.

 

 

A Hornby A3 with several alterations/additions; weathered by Tom Wright.

 

 

A Wills/scratch/Jamieson A3; all my work, made in 1978. 

 

 

A DJH A3 with a K's tender; painted by Geoff Haynes.

 

 

A Hornby A4, detailed by me: painted by Ian Rathbone.

 

 

A Pro-Scale A4; painted by Ian Rathbone.

 

 

A Hornby Britannia with several alterations by me; weathered by Tom Wright.

 

 

A DJH Britannia; painted by Geoff Haynes. 

 

 

A Bachmann Austerity; weathered by me.

 

 

A DJH Austerity/painted/weathered by me.

 

 

A Hornby O1; altered/detailed/weathered by me.

 

 

A scratch-built O1 from 1977; painted/weathered by me.

 

 

A Heljan O2/3; detailed/altered by me, weathered by Geoff Haynes.

 

One of the problems in being a cat's servant, is that many of her hairs get everywhere - including on my models. In my attempt to remove one hair with a soft brush, I've dislodged the crossrail on the smokebox door. Heljan's handrail pillars on this model are far too weak. 

 

A Nu-Cast O2/3; painted/weathered by me. 

 

I think there's no doubt that (with a bit of work) visually, RTR locos are at least the equal of kit-built equivalents. However, out of all these models, only the Heljan O2/3 matches the pulling power of the kit-built equivalents.

 

Interesting? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fascinating set of pictures. In my view a well built and painted kit from decades back is visually as good  as today's RTR. In haulage terms there's no contest

[APOLLO]

 

A superb model. I also like the tarp covered van.

 

Back in 1963 for passing my 11+ exam therfore gaining a place at Wigan Grammar School my parents bought me a Tri-ang TT Britannia, 70036 Boadicea - I still have this loco.

 

I remember Brits and Brush 4's were the staple in the mid sixties on the WCML expresses and fast freights through Wigan.

Here is one of each passing at Springs Branch many moons ago, not the best of shots but note the many labels on the vans - rarely modelled.

 

 

Brit15

[hmrspaul]

22 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

 

I remember Brits and Brush 4's were the staple in the mid sixties on the WCML expresses and fast freights through Wigan.

Here is one of each passing at Springs Branch many moons ago, not the best of shots but note the many labels on the vans - rarely modelled.

 

 

 

Brit15

Train of Banana vans. 

 

Paul

[nick_young]

Here's a direct comparison between the latest weathered Bachmann Austerity out of the box and the DJH kit built one I was fortunate enough to acquire from the Peter Lawson collection. The Bachmann is a nice model, but the kit built one knocks it into a cocked hat. The difference in the relief of the detailing is particularly obvious from this sun-drenched shot, but there is something about the overall presence of the DJH that is the very epitome of heavy metal. And of course it weighs a ton and and doesn't blink at dragging a 40 wagon train up a 3 percent grade. After a bit of tweaking it will even navigate my tightest radius (2' 6") without trouble. The Bachmann has a very good sound file, but somehow the motor noise emitted by 90147 as it grinds its way around the layout is no less satisfying.  I won't chip it because there's also something refreshing about the sensitivity of the DC control experience. So I'll have separate DC running sessions for this and the Hall of equal quality I picked up (which simply isn't fair to put alongside its RTR equivalent.) So thanks again to Tony for channeling these gems and I hope Peter is happy that his beautifully made models are continuing to give great pleasure on other chaps' layouts.

[Tony Wright]

8 hours ago, APOLLO said:

 

A superb model. I also like the tarp covered van.

 

Back in 1963 for passing my 11+ exam therfore gaining a place at Wigan Grammar School my parents bought me a Tri-ang TT Britannia, 70036 Boadicea - I still have this loco.

 

I remember Brits and Brush 4's were the staple in the mid sixties on the WCML expresses and fast freights through Wigan.

Here is one of each passing at Springs Branch many moons ago, not the best of shots but note the many labels on the vans - rarely modelled.

 

 

Brit15

Good morning,

 

The tarp-covered van is the work of the late Dave Shakespeare. It's a privilege to have something running on Little Bytham which once ran on his Tetleys Mills. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

[MJI]

47s laserglaze fans and wipers, along with handrails and respray. Really transform them.

[Chas Levin]

11 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

This evening I've done some direct comparison pictures between locos I've built and RTR equivalents. In some ways it could be said it's not an entirely fair set of comparisons, because none of the RTR locos is as-supplied; all have been worked on in several ways.

 

Anyway, here goes...

[snip]

I think there's no doubt that (with a bit of work) visually, RTR locos are at least the equal of kit-built equivalents. However, out of all these models, only the Heljan O2/3 matches the pulling power of the kit-built equivalents.

 

Interesting?

 

Morning Tony, I'd have to agree with @davidw's post that it's a fascinating set of pictures and that in a visual comparison each team's players stand up very well.

Equally fascinating to read that only the Heljan 02/3 matches kit-built pulling power... Well done Heljan!

 

I also see lots of small differences between the RTR and kit versions, in the way of chimney shapes, domes, boiler outlines etc; I'm nowhere near expert enough to know whether these reflect genuine prototype differences or whether some are more accurate than others. Probably a can of worms, but interesting nonetheless...

[Captain Kernow]

Morning Tony,

 

I agree with others in that you've posted a very interesting set of comparative photos, with much food for thought.

 

I am certainly no expert on LNER locos, but my initial thoughts are that in terms of some of the bodies, there is very little in it between kit-built and RTR, (although within the RTR camp, some of the Hornby bodies perhaps seem a tad more convincing than the Bachmann ones). Of course, if you hadn't improved the RTR bodies in the way that you have, it is likely that I would have preferred most of the kit-built loco bodies over the RTR ones. Good weathering makes a world of difference to RTR locos as well.

 

Below the footplate, however, I find most of the kit-built locos to be somewhat superior to the RTR ones, especially the Bachmann ones.

 

The one thing I would say, is that I find the Hornby smokebox door area of the Britannia more convincing than the DJH one. I've found the same, when comparing my DJH BR Standard 2-6-4T to the Bachmann equivalent.

 

[MJI]

1 hour ago, Chas Levin said:

 

Morning Tony, I'd have to agree with @davidw's post that it's a fascinating set of pictures and that in a visual comparison each team's players stand up very well.

Equally fascinating to read that only the Heljan 02/3 matches kit-built pulling power... Well done Heljan!

 

I also see lots of small differences between the RTR and kit versions, in the way of chimney shapes, domes, boiler outlines etc; I'm nowhere near expert enough to know whether these reflect genuine prototype differences or whether some are more accurate than others. Probably a can of worms, but interesting nonetheless...

Guess who helped Heljan with their O2?

 

So not overly surprised.

[Tony Wright]

42 minutes ago, MJI said:

Guess who helped Heljan with their O2?

 

So not overly surprised.

Good afternoon Martin,

 

I was one of those who helped. However, our collective comments/suggestions with regard to the (poor) valve gear and the hopeless plastic handrail pillars were not acted upon. 

 

It certainly will pull a house down, however! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

 

Morning Tony, I'd have to agree with @davidw's post that it's a fascinating set of pictures and that in a visual comparison each team's players stand up very well.

Equally fascinating to read that only the Heljan 02/3 matches kit-built pulling power... Well done Heljan!

 

I also see lots of small differences between the RTR and kit versions, in the way of chimney shapes, domes, boiler outlines etc; I'm nowhere near expert enough to know whether these reflect genuine prototype differences or whether some are more accurate than others. Probably a can of worms, but interesting nonetheless...

Good afternoon Chas,

 

In response to yours (and Captain's) comments, I'm sure some of the details such as chimneys, domes and fittings are 'open to interpretation'. For certain, the chimney and dome on my scratch-built O1 are too short (they're Jamieson fittings), but in 1977 who made chimneys and domes for O1s or O4/8s? I'm not sure that the Hornby O1 chimney is right, either. Graeme King's resin one is better......

 

 

 

As seen here on my 'Heinz 57' O4/8. 

 

 

Little Engines' O1 chimney is probably better, too.

 

The Heljan O2's chimney isn't much cop, either............

 

 

 

Which one would you choose? I replaced the chimney on the one shown yesterday, with a Markits turned brass one.

 

 

As I did on this much-altered Heljan O2/3; turned into an O2/2. A hybrid thing with probably too many errors, but..............

 

 

On a layout?

 

 

In company with another much-altered RTR loco (which now runs on Shap). 

 

When I assisted Heljan with its O2s' developments, I was presented with several spare parts, including different cabs. The GN one went on to the O2/2................

 

 

And the side window one on to a Nucast O2 was building (from an incomplete kit), turning it into an O2/1 (as with the O2/2, I used a Nu-Cast GN tender). 

 

Weathered down (by Geoff Haynes)..................

 

 

In the company of a PDK O2/4 (ex-O2/1) it looks the part (I think).

 

Speaking of the PDK O2s............

 

 

This (in my opinion) is the best way to 'achieve' an O2 of any denomination.

 

What do the above images 'prove', if anything? That, with a bit of work, current RTR locos can be made into something worthwhile? Or that the 'best' way is still to kit-build, which is the situation in my case.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

 

 

 

 

Edited May 5 by Tony Wright
to clarify a point

[Barry Ten]

Here's a brief clip of my Nu-Cast M&SWJR 2-4-0 under test.

 

 

There isn't an RTR comparison to be made here, and with only three locos in the class, I wouldn't imagine it would represent an attractive proposition to a manufacturer. I've quite enjoyed building this kit so far; the castings are good and the only minor snag is that a few bits have been packed wrongly, so I've got a matching pair of rear cab steps instead of L and R hand ones. I'll try to get some replacements from Nu-Cast, but failing that, it would be a good opportunity to practise a bit of scratch-building.

[thegreenhowards]

Tony,

 

You missed the two most glaring (at least to me) RTR omissions off your list - a B2 and a B16.

 

Andy

[thegreenhowards]

All this talk of class 47s makes me very uncomfortable. It’s worse than the Russian doll 4-6-0s from the ‘other railway’ which occasionally crop up.

 

I’ve gone to great lengths to set the end date for my layout, Gresley Jn, at 27/9/62 - the day before the first ‘duff’ arrived at Finsbury Park. In O gauge, I’ve gone later, but chose Glenfinnan because no 47s were allowed there…at least in the good old days!

 

 

Edited May 5 by thegreenhowards

[BMacdermott]

Hello Andy

 

The B16/1 was in The Top 50 of The 00 Wishlist Poll 2022. The B16/2 and B16/3 (which we listed as one entry) were High Polling.

 

As I have noted here before - and similar to 'poor old' 60113 - the B2 is always Low Polling. I still await any rational explanation.🙂

 

Brian

[davidw]

12 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Tony,

 

You missed the two most glaring (at least to me) RTR omissions off your list - a B2 and a B16.

 

Andy

 

3 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello Andy

 

The B16/1 was in The Top 50 of The 00 Wishlist Poll 2022. The B16/2 and B16/3 (which we listed as one entry) were High Polling.

 

As I have noted here before - and similar to 'poor old' 60113 - the B2 is always Low Polling. I still await any rational explanation.🙂

 

Brian

Wouldn't the problem of a B16 of any flavor be that the valve gear and or length of the frame  be incompatible with the industry standard of 2nd radius curves. I could be completely wrong - just musing.....

[thegreenhowards]

5 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello Andy

 

The B16/1 was in The Top 50 of The 00 Wishlist Poll 2022. The B16/2 and B16/3 (which we listed as one entry) were High Polling.

 

As I have noted here before - and similar to 'poor old' 60113 - the B2 is always Low Polling. I still await any rational explanation.🙂

 

Brian

Maybe it’s too similar to a B17 and regarded as a mutilation of one. However that very same similarity would bring economies should Hornby decide to make one.

[BMacdermott]

Hello Andy

 

There are a number of loco classes that are 'similar' yet have still been made RTR. 

 

Brian

[APOLLO]

I got to the Eastern Region a few times in my trainspotting days !!

 

Leeds City, love those long hood colour light signals !!

 

 

Must admit the Deltic takes first place for diesels !!

 

 

Why aye man !!!!!

 

 

 

 

Chesterfield to Nottingham, A "duff" duff !! EE's to the rescue !!

 

 

Retford

 

 

Finsbury Park

 

 

Same day, Old Oak Common. The bugg**s got in every shot !!

 

 

Back home, two on Springs Branch after steam had finished.

 

 

Two more at 8F

 

 

Yes I'm a bit of a Brush 4 fan. I've quite a selection of Lima "special editions", - but I run my Heljan and Bachmann ones mainly.

 

Brit15

[thegreenhowards]

18 hours ago, davidw said:

In haulage terms there's no contest

I’m going to play devils advocate here.

 

I accept that a well built kit stuffed with lead will massively outhaul a RTR loco with no added weight. But that’s not a fair contest. I add some weight to all my RTR locos and very few have to be limited because of lack of haulage ability. My Bachmann and Hornby LNER Pacifics will mainly haul 14 (admittedly mainly plastic) coaches OK. I say mainly because some of the earlier Bachmann A1s won’t haul so much. And my RTR 9F, O2 and WDs all manage my 46 wagon mineral rake. 
 

I have several kit built locos which won’t pull so much. Probably for one or more of the following reasons:

- they’re made of brass rather than white metal;

- they have an inferior motor/ gearbox combo; or

- they haven’t been built very well (certainly true of one or two of my earlier efforts!).

 

In O gauge a lot of kits are predominantly brass and therefore not so heavy. I find that they often don’t haul too much without a lot of added weight and that RTR is sometimes better. My RTR Ellis Clark Black 5 will pull anything I ask of it - but it does weigh about 3KG and has a top of the range ABC helical gearbox!

 

Having said all this, I do accept that in the extreme situation of Tony’s rakes of 14 metal coaches, something heavier than is possible with a plastic body is probably required.

 

All this is a rather long winded way of my saying, let’s try to be more balanced here. The difference is not between kit and RTR, but based on weight, quality of construction and power of motor. Tony’s Pacifics are built to pull and they do so very well. But a modern RTR pacific suitably weighted would not be that far behind and would be able to cope with 99%+ of model railway tasks that are thrown at it. I, for one, am very grateful that the RTR we have today is far better than it used to be in haulage terms as well as detail.

 

I guess I should say ‘Trigger alert ‘ at this point!

 

Andy

 

 

 

 

[Willie Whizz]

1 hour ago, davidw said:

 

Wouldn't the problem of a B16 of any flavor be that the valve gear and or length of the frame  be incompatible with the industry standard of 2nd radius curves. I could be completely wrong - just musing.....

I’ve heard this said before - but what I’ve never heard is whether any modeller has actually made a B16 that is capable of coping with those curves without so much compromise as to be unacceptable in realism terms. This is surely the forum that would know!

[Northmoor]

No particular comment to make, just wanted to get one in as near to #80,000 as possible.  Wow this thread shows no sign of "terminating".

[Clive Mortimore]

On 04/05/2024 at 17:09, MarkC said:

Dave (RIP) certainly did produce a K4 kit - indeed I have the very last one that he sold (he mentioned that as he handed it over in exchange for a fistful of beer vouchers at his last Newcastle show) in my roundtuit pile - and it's getting close to the top... No doubt a RTR version will appear just after I complete it; it wouldn't be the first time that's happened to me 🤔

 

As I've said before, I'll use (suitably weathered) RTR until I build or obtain a kit or scratchbuilt replacement, but when I look at the gorgeous Bachmann Class 108 DMU that trundles through Scalby, you do have to ask yourself how to top it. Some RTR is just stunning...

 

Mark

Hi Mark

 

I don't think any other manufacturer can beat Bachmann's first generation DMUs. I have been running a DMU heavy session  on Sheffield Exchange and watching a six coach train made up of a Bachmann Cravens, Derby and Met Cam 2 car units. Not only looking the part but just gliding along.

[Tony Wright]

4 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

Tony,

 

You missed the two most glaring (at least to me) RTR omissions off your list - a B2 and a B16.

 

Andy

Good evening Andy,

 

Serious omissions!

 

Little Bytham has played host to many B16s of all types, and none has failed to negotiate the 3' minimum radius (on the main line - I wouldn't dare try one on the MR/M&GNR).

 

A selection............

 

 

As you know, I often build locos in 'batches', and two from such a build were a Nu-Cast B16/3 (on a scratch-built chassis) and a DJH A1 (which became 60157). 

 

 

Geoff Haynes painted the new B16/3 (beautifully), and it's seen here in company with a PDK B16/2 (PDK/Edge/Wright/Foster), my much older Nu-Cast B16/3 (Wright) and a DJH B16/1 (Geary).

 

Some closer views of three of those above.......

 

 

Tony Geary's magnificent DJH B16/1.

 

 

The PDK B16/2; originally built by Mike Edge, part-mechanically-rebuilt by me, painted by me and weathered by Tom Foster.

 

 

A Nu-Cast B16/3 built/painted by me when the kit first came out (the mid-'70s?) on a scratch-built chassis (the original white metal lump of a chassis was pounded and cut up for ballast!). You can tell how old it is - it's got Hamblings' driving wheels! 

 

Visiting B16s have included...........

 

 

This DJH B16/1 (I can't recall who brought this).

 

 

This DJH B16/3 (again, I can't recall its provenance). 

 

 

A PDK B16/1, built/painted originally by Paul Hill and mechanically tweaked by me; now the property of Geoff West.

 

 

A PDK B16/3, built/painted by John Houlden and weathered by Geoff West (it's now his property). 

 

I've built a PDK B16/1 which now runs on Grantham, which Ian Rathbone painted............

 

 

 

Superbly! 

 

It has no difficulty going round Grantham's curves. 

 

Plenty of B16s, then? Selfishly, I couldn't give a fig if one is produced RTR - I have no need of any more.

 

B2s?

 

Only two Thompson ones on LB, I'm afraid (more Robinson ones).

 

 

I think this is from a DMR kit, but whose is it? 

 

 

A scratch-built one, which Geoff Haynes painted (builder unknown).

 

Geoff West bought it...........

 

 

And weathered it rather well. 

 

It's now the property of Sandra Orpen, and she'll convert it to EM gauge for use on Retford. 

 

I've never thought of the situation between RTR and kits as a 'contest'. I suppose I'm lucky inasmuch as I have no need for RTR steam-outline locomotives, because building locos is much more liberating - one is not beholden to products made in far-away factories. Yes, not all can build good-running locos (I've had far too many duds through my hands to know that), but it would be a much-poorer hobby (in my view) if so many layouts become RTR-reliant, motive power-wise (I'm talking steam-outline here).

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Edited May 5 by Tony Wright
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