Bakewell - Peak District Line BR - Layout Views

[Alister_G]

Incidentally, if you use the 00-SF gauges you will also need the seperate check rail gauges for 00-SF from C & L, as the grooves for these are not cut into the track gauges.

 

As regards a vice - you don't NEED one.

Several options:

1. Just hold the rail on a block of wood with your fingers (very hard work - not recommended!!!)

2. G clamp - use this to hold the rail on a block of wood: simply hold this (on edge of a table) or use the clamp to hold the lot to edge of table.

3. Block of wood, 2 screws, and 2 rubber washers.

 

For option 3 put the screws either side of where the rail will go on a block of wood (so they are slightly clear of the rail) an inch or two ( or somewhere in between (experiment and see what work for you). Under the screws put two RUBBER washers (tap washers if you have them) them put a metal washers on top of the rubber one but under the screw head: use screws with flat bottom to the head (these usually have a rounded top to the head - don't know the technical name!)

 

Send me a pm with your email address if you want a picture, as I am sure this will make more sense than my poor description!!

 

Steve

 

 

I use double sided tape with no problems! I use two 3 - 4 mm wide strips (it's not critical, and I simply cut by eye with scissors, so some May end up wider!).

I put the strips either side of the template, just outside the rails. I find I can turn the template over and carefully peel the template away (don't try to peel the turnout from the template as you will bend it). Alternatively, soak it with white spirit. If you want to make the tape 'low tack' dab it with a non fluffy cloth before sticking the sleepers.

 

You do not actually have to remove the template - glue the sleepers on, and when you have finished stick the whole thing, with template still in place, to the baseboard (you would automatically do this if building in-situ) - the template will be covered in ballast.

 

 

Another tip - make an extra copy of your template: once the sleepers are in place they hide some of the detail - I find it easier to have a second copy for reference.

 

 

That's great, thanks so much for all the advice. I was planning on using the Brian Harrap (sp) method of doing the V, having seen what Bodgit and Jason produced doing it that way, but would probably need a vice in that case.

 

As I've got to wait, (mutter grumble moan...)  I might have a go with one of your methods.

 

Cheers,

 

Al.

[sp1]

Thanks mate, Drat, I thought I'd got the same as Andy was using (hence buying two sets), but obviously not.

 

I'll experiment with Templot and see what works.

The ones marked 4T-GOO should be the same ones that Andy is using.

[Alister_G]

The ones marked 4T-GOO should be the same ones that Andy is using.

 

Ah, right, thanks.

[sp1]

If you are going to try the 'Brian Harrap' method if you have something vertical that you can clamp two blocks of wood to with the rail in between that would work.

 

Alternatively if you have a 'Black & Decker Workmate' (other makes are available) or similar you could clamp two blocks of wood in it for the same effect.

 

Edited because I can't spell things on this phone!

Edited December 11, 2014 by sp1

[Alister_G]

I am singularly ill prepared, with a distinct lack of DIY tools, so although I used to have a vice, a Workmate, and various G clamps etc, I'm now virtually bereft...

 

I don't even have much of a stock of flat bits of wood, as I was so careful to order only what I needed to build the baseboards!

 

I really must build up a stock of useful bits again.

 

Al.

[sp1]

If I remember correctly places like 'Homebase' sell hobby vices for about £15-20 - I was a cheapskate and got two (!!) for £6.99 from Aldi: they have them every so often, but you could wait months!

[martin_wynne]

So, I've now got the following items:

 

I think I'm right in saying that I need to use the set of gauges on the right of the picture, if I want to minimise the modifications to rolling stock. Please can someone confirm?

 

 

 

Hi Al,

 

• No -- use the track gauges on the left if you don't want to make any changes to RTR wheels.

 

It really is unfortunate that after all these years C&L still don't make it clear on their web site that their "ordinary" 00 gauges on the right are for the DOGA-Fine standard only, which requires all wheels to be widened to 14.7mm or 14.8mm Back-to-Back, and that their 00 Back-toBack gauge is also for this.

 

This must have caused countless problems and disappointment to modellers over the years, as these gauges are also supplied in the 00 turnout kits.

 

Especially when they now also supply the 00-SF gauges on the left -- which don't require any modifications to most RTR wheels. They ought really also to supply standard 00-BF 16.5mm gauges too -- although the 00-SF check gauge tool is applicable for both.

 

The blame for this state of affairs lies with the former owner of the C&L business who decided to foist the specialist DOGA-Fine standard on everyone whether they wanted it or not, or understood what they were getting.

 

But it is surely time that the present C&L business properly explained what they are selling.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Andrew P]

Hi Al, a giant WOW, you've once again had the same unstinting support that I had from everyone,

 

BTW I haven't YET used the Brian Harrup method for making the V, I have just either filled or ground the back of the rail to a point to join the two together to form a V.

 

I was also interested / disturbed to read Martins last post, I have been using a mix of mine and Jason's but doing the Wing Rails and Check Rails with a 1mm spacer and all my stock seems to run fine so far, I should ne able to connect several point together next week and see how it is for real.

 

Get a good file and just make sure the rail is the right way up, (I find it hard to see sometimes, hahahha) and have a go at forming a V, once you do you'll want to do the next bit.

 

All the best mate.

[sp1]

Hi Al, a giant WOW, you've once again had the same unstinting support that I had from everyone,

 

BTW I haven't YET used the Brian Harrup method for making the V, I have just either filled or ground the back of the rail to a point to join the two together to form a V.

 

I was also interested / disturbed to read Martins last post, I have been using a mix of mine and Jason's but doing the Wing Rails and Check Rails with a 1mm spacer and all my stock seems to run fine so far, I should ne able to connect several point together next week and see how it is for real.

 

Get a good file and just make sure the rail is the right way up, (I find it hard to see sometimes, hahahha) and have a go at forming a V, once you do you'll want to do the next bit.

 

All the best mate.

Both yours and Jason's gauges are 16.5mm - the only difference is the flangeway gaps: Jason's will be 1mm and yours 1.25mm. If you have been using a 1mm spacer it should work.

 

I agree about the rail: more than once I have put it the wrong way up - result 'inside out' blades, or not realising it is wrong until it is soldered! Aaaaargh!

[freebs]

Can't wait to see how you get on Al. I'm ever so slightly jealous and wish I had the time and money to have a go at hand built track myself. You'll remember my ill - fated attempt at making a diamond some months back..

[ChrisN]

Al,

Can I ask a stupid question.  Was the track at Bakewell still bullhead at your period of modelling?  I am not sure when it was phased out.  I am sure it will be fine or one of the posts above would have pointed it out.

[Alister_G]

Hi Al,

 

• No -- use the track gauges on the left if you don't want to make any changes to RTR wheels.

 

It really is unfortunate that after all these years C&L still don't make it clear on their web site that their "ordinary" 00 gauges on the right are for the DOGA-Fine standard only, which requires all wheels to be widened to 14.7mm or 14.8mm Back-to-Back, and that their 00 Back-toBack gauge is also for this.

 

This must have caused countless problems and disappointment to modellers over the years, as these gauges are also supplied in the 00 turnout kits.

 

Especially when they now also supply the 00-SF gauges on the left -- which don't require any modifications to most RTR wheels. They ought really also to supply standard 00-BF 16.5mm gauges too -- although the 00-SF check gauge tool is applicable for both.

 

The blame for this state of affairs lies with the former owner of the C&L business who decided to foist the specialist DOGA-Fine standard on everyone whether they wanted it or not, or understood what they were getting.

 

But it is surely time that the present C&L business properly explained what they are selling.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

 

 

Thanks Martin, and thanks for the clear explanation. Is Steve (sp1) above correct that I need the 00-SF check rail gauges as well, or is it possible to do without?

 

Answered by Andy, thanks.

 

Al.

Edited December 12, 2014 by acg_mr

[Alister_G]

Hi Al, a giant WOW, you've once again had the same unstinting support that I had from everyone,

 

BTW I haven't YET used the Brian Harrup method for making the V, I have just either filled or ground the back of the rail to a point to join the two together to form a V.

 

I was also interested / disturbed to read Martins last post, I have been using a mix of mine and Jason's but doing the Wing Rails and Check Rails with a 1mm spacer and all my stock seems to run fine so far, I should ne able to connect several point together next week and see how it is for real.

 

Get a good file and just make sure the rail is the right way up, (I find it hard to see sometimes, hahahha) and have a go at forming a V, once you do you'll want to do the next bit.

 

All the best mate.

 

Cheers Andy.

 

I bet I won't be allowed to buy a file, either

 

Ah, right, so I just need a 1mm spacer for the check rails then, that answers that.

 

Right way up!! Nobody said anything about a right way up!

 

I'm glad you mentioned that...

 

Cheers

 

Al.

[Alister_G]

Can't wait to see how you get on Al. I'm ever so slightly jealous and wish I had the time and money to have a go at hand built track myself. You'll remember my ill - fated attempt at making a diamond some months back..

 

Cheers mate. As I remember, it wasn't ill-fated at all, you made a cracking job of it?

 

Thanks Lee,

 

Al.

[sp1]

Thanks Martin, and thanks for the clear explanation. Is Steve (sp1) above correct that I need the 00-SF check rail gauges as well, or is it possible to do without?

 

Answered by Andy, thanks.

 

Al.

Al

Martin did explain either here on RMWeb or on the Templot forum why seperate check rail gauges are preferable, and what he said made sense - only problem is I can't remember where! Hopefully he will return to explain!

Steve

[Alister_G]

Al,

Can I ask a stupid question.  Was the track at Bakewell still bullhead at your period of modelling?  I am not sure when it was phased out.  I am sure it will be fine or one of the posts above would have pointed it out.

 

Chris, not a stupid question at all - and something I hadn't even considered. And, having now examined some photos, it would appear it was flat-bottomed rail when the line closed:

 

 

Now there's a thing.

 

Question to all, should I proceed with bullhead, or buy some flat-bottomed rail? Does it make any difference construction wise for making turnouts?

[RBE]

If you are doing it to correctly represent Bakewell I guess you ought to do flatbottom on the main lines and bullhead in the yards as seen in your picture. However flatbottom turnouts are a bit different as you have the foot to deal with at the switch or else it will get in the way of the blades closing up and chairs are different of course. I apologize in advance as I haven't read back through this portion of the thread but are you doing chairs or just pcb soldered track ala Bogit? If its just soldered then flatbottom really isnt that different to BH TBH. 

[Alister_G]

Hi Cav,

 

I was going to do PCB soldered track like Bodge.

 

One other thing, it looks like both SMP flexitrack and C & L flexitrack are bullhead, unless I'm missing something, and also C & L aren't selling code 75 flat-bottomed rail at the moment, their tool is damaged

[martin_wynne]

Martin did explain either here on RMWeb or on the Templot forum why separate check rail gauges are preferable, and what he said made sense - only problem is I can't remember where! Hopefully he will return to explain!

 

Hi Steve, Al,

 

The check rail gauge is the most important gauge in the set. You could just about get away with setting the other rails by eye from the template, but not the check rails. They must be the correct distance from the opposite rail (not the rail next to them) in order for wheels to run properly through the crossings (frogs). They are set using the check rail gauges.

 

It's preferable to have separate check rail gauges for two reasons:

 

1. It allows you to have some gauge-widening on sharp curves. When you widen the gauge, the check rail gap must widen by the same amount. It can't do that if it is set using a multi-slot combined gauge.

 

2. If there is a problem with the track, you need to be able to check it using the gauges. This is next to impossible to do with a multi-slot gauge. If it won't fit on the rails it is very difficult to say which of the rails is wrong.

 

I've already posted this below half a dozen times in various topics on RMweb, and on other forums, but I may as well post it yet again:

 

 

A is the check gauge. It is the most critical dimension in pointwork. If this dimension is too small, wheels running from left to right can hit the nose of the vee and very likely derail, or at least bump. If this dimension is too large, the wheel backs will bind or jam on the check rail. To make sure it's correct, the check rail is set using check gauge tools. For 00-SF and 00-BF this dimension should be 15.2mm. You can use the same check gauge tools for both these standards (they are both running the same wheels).

 

B is the crossing flangeway gap. It's also important. If this dimension is too small, the wheel backs will bind or jam on the wing rail. If this dimension is too large, the gap in front of the nose of the vee will be too wide, and the wheels may drop into it with a bump. This gap is set using a small piece of metal shim called a crossing flangeway gauge shim. For 00-SF it should be 1.0mm thick. For 00-BF it should be 1.3mm thick.

 

C is the track gauge. It shouldn't be less than the specified dimension, but it can be wider. It is often widened on sharply curved track to ease the running of long-wheelbase vehicles. The track gauge is normally set using roller gauge tools, or alternatively using a 3-point gauge tool, which automatically widens the track gauge on sharp curves. For 00-SF this dimension shouldn't be less than 16.2mm. For 00-BF it is normally 16.5mm.

 

D is the check rail gap. The width of this gap doesn't matter a damn, providing it is wider than the wheel flanges. It's whatever you end up with after setting A and C correctly. But where the check rail is combined with a wing rail in complex formations (i.e. in parallel-wing V-crossings) it must be the same as B.

 

p.s. Al -- Bullhead rail will fit in the chairs only one way up. That is with the thick edge on top, and the thin edge at the bottom in the chairs. This is not always intuitive for beginners. The prototype reason is so that there is extra metal on the running head to allow for wear.

regards,

 

Martin.

[Alister_G]

Thanks very much Martin, I really appreciate your help, and the trouble you are going to.

 

The problem with RMWeb is it's just too darn big sometimes, to know where to find stuff.

 

Right, I just need to decide on which rail I'm using, then buy the check gauge tool and I should be set...

 

Thanks again,

 

Al.

[martin_wynne]

also C & L aren't selling code 75 flat-bottomed rail at the moment, their tool is damaged

 

• You don't need code 75 flat-bottom rail.

 

The correct size for the flat-bottom rail in your photo is code 82.

 

The code 75 flat-bottom rail which Peco use is sized for H0 and is actually underscale for 00.

 

The prototype BS-110A rail in your picture is 6.1/4" high, which scales to code 82.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[sp1]

Thanks very much Martin, I really appreciate your help, and the trouble you are going to.

 

The problem with RMWeb is it's just too darn big sometimes, to know where to find stuff.

 

Right, I just need to decide on which rail I'm using, then buy the check gauge tool and I should be set...

 

Thanks again,

 

Al.

Al

Be aware that the check rail gauges that C & L sell are for 00-SF, but are not compatible with DOGA-fine (your other gauges) as this has a wider check rail spacing.

Steve

[Alister_G]

• You don't need code 75 flat-bottom rail.

 

The correct size for the flat-bottom rail in your photo is code 82.

 

The code 75 flat-bottom rail which Peco use is sized for H0 and is actually underscale for 00.

 

The prototype BS-110A rail in your picture is 6.1/4" high, which scales to code 82.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

 

I must appear to be a right numpty Martin, thank you for your continued patience.

[Alister_G]

Al

Be aware that the check rail gauges that C & L sell are for 00-SF, but are not compatible with DOGA-fine (your other gauges) as this has a wider check rail spacing.

Steve

 

Cheers Steve, I've already bought the 00-SF track gauges, as well, so should be fine, thanks.

[sp1]

Cheers Steve, I've already bought the 00-SF track gauges, as well, so should be fine, thanks.

Just wanted you to be aware that they would be if no use if you wanted to use the other gauges (the ones that Andy is using, that came from Jason).

 

Fun isn't it, trying to sort all this out!

I settled on 00-SF myself, after trying other options: it all just seems to make sense, in spite of all the arguments about it that have taken place on various forums (I doubt those arguing against it have ever tried it) - a similar thing is done in 0 gauge (0-MF?) and that doesn't cause the same arguments!

Don't forget to reset Templot accordingly!

Steve

Ps I would never push anyone to use one standard or another - have only ever tried to present the various options and let people make their own mind up. Additionally, I find 00-SF easier to build - have another look at Eastwood Town, page 37 if you need further inspiration and information.