Possible new LT model from Bachmann

[GoingUnderground]

Your comment about Q Stock got me thinking. The problem for a manufacturer is that the type of stock is very dependent on the area of London that you lived in. I very rarely saw the non-38 versions of Q stock or R stock as I lived in NW London and didn't often stray into District territory despite starting travelling on the Underground in 1960.. COP stock, if you close your eyes to the Metadyne changes could represent any LT surface line, but not mixed formation Q stock or R stock which were unique to the District Line.

 

I agree that O/P/Q38 could be a serious possibility for an RTR manufacturer running out of new ideas for British Outline models, R stock slightly less so because of the detail changes between it and O/P/Q38, is it really worth making a mould that could accommodate different inserts for the differences between O/P/Q38 and R when the quantity of R that you might sell is questionable? But the pre-38 Q stock is, like Tube Standard Stock too much of a mixture from different makers and batches to be of interest to an RTR manufacturer.

 

Remember, for Underground stock to look right it needs to be on 4th rail track with all teh cable supports alongside. How many folks want ot go to that sort of trouble just to run a 3 car set of R Stock because they like the look of it?

[Guest maxthemapman]

 

Livery-wise there are a few variations available for the flare-sided stocks: LT train red for all types, bus red for CO/CP stock and aluminium/silver/white for later R stock and repaints from around the early 1960s (or possibly slightly earlier).

 

Don't forget the experimental silver/red stripe R Stock train

And also some maroon (later yellow?) engineering conversions

 

And finally the two trains of R49/59 stock which were refurbished for use on the Olympia shuttle, and eventually painted in corporate red/white/blue(!) and then heritage red/cream in their last year of service.

[Guest maxthemapman]

Checking Piers Connor, there were only two types of R-stock vehicle, DM, converted from Q stock, so we already have the body, and NDM. Only 6 DMs were built new.

 

Is it worth producing an R-Stock NDM body shell? Perhaps, because that is the only route to silver trains.

 

As I said, no manufacturer need commit to this programme in advance, because it can be created incrementally, and the LTM returning a Q-stock train to service is bound to generate interest.

[RogerE]

Forget all this modern image stuff like Sarah Siddons 

 

There's a certain steam loco that has had a lot of publicity recently that would be well received.

[G-BOAF]

I wouldn't it put i past Bachmann to Do Met 1 and possibly the Chesham coaches (also Bluebell Themed). But how would they be with the teak livery?

Probably Met 1 more likely than the coaches, and indeed more likely than underground stock, given recent and ongoing publicity. We might see a Wooden-Box LU150 Met 1 Model, ready for release in the summer.

[PhilJ W]

The 'A' class such as No. 23 has even more possibilities than No. 1, The Metropolitan District had the same type of loco but with variations in the boiler fittings and in the MD green livery. Then there is the later modifications such as cabs and the ones that were sold off to such as the Cambrian and the Mersey Railways.

[SRman]

The nice thing about OPQR for a manufacturer is that, like BR design suburban Southern EMUs, this set of trains can be built up authentically incrementally.

 

... <snipped> ...

 

Then, if sales are going haywire, think about some new bodies to create a mixed Q-stock train. Here is an interesting question, what would be the least mixed Q-stock formation that would be vaguely authentic? Could the manufacturer start with one, and add more if sales warrant?

 

The least mixed formation I have seen (in a photo) was an entire train of 1935 stock, which looked very neat as the '35 stock had most of the lines cleaned up a bit compared to the previous designs. I think, from memory, the photo was in the book Londn Transport: From Steam to Silver.

[SRman]

Don't forget the experimental silver/red stripe R Stock train

And also some maroon (later yellow?) engineering conversions

 

And finally the two trains of R49/59 stock which were refurbished for use on the Olympia shuttle, and eventually painted in corporate red/white/blue(!) and then heritage red/cream in their last year of service.

 

I deliberately left out the red-stripe R stock as it was really only one unit, I think, and that was an experimental as a livery (with two variations - straight stripe across the front and 'V' form). I also deliberately ignored the six purpose built DMs as they were a definite minority. From memory, Piers Connor's book says that two were east-facing and four west facing (I am open to correction though!!).

 

I had forgotten about the engineering stock but they definitely add some more possibilities.

[Bluebell Model Railway]

Think your along the wrong lines, I have heard the LT Bachmann thing before... I was recently told what is possibly coming... I know one, but the others are uncertain so i will not say rumors.  its more to do with a recent event in January, set for release at one of the Met events so May or September.

There won't be any coaches sadly... i did stop modelling my 3D modelling or printing of the Chesham set until i had it cleared they weren't in any forth coming announcements...

I did mention before it would be smart of a RTR manufacturer to look at events coming up on the Met this year... looks like they thought the same... seeing as the London Underground was one of the first, underground railways.

[Guest maxthemapman]

The red strip versions were definitely in service, and included Q38 DMs, so it is a legitimate livery, more so perhaps than others we have seen.

 

The all-1935 stock train dates from when the trains were delivered with air doors I think. These were soon converted to hand doors in their N stock days so that they could run with the standard district fleet.

[Metr0Land]

I wouldn't it put i past Bachmann to Do Met 1 and possibly the Chesham coaches (also Bluebell Themed). But how would they be with the teak livery?

 

 

Hornby don't seem to have any trouble doing teak effect these days? 

 

More of a problem would be the set-up/tooling costs for 3 different coaches.  They'd need to be convinced they can recoup the outlay quickly?  They spent nearly all their lives in teak though were painted for the last couple of years in service so not many true livery variations for the Cheshams either.

[RogerE]

The 'A' class such as No. 23 has even more possibilities than No. 1, The Metropolitan District had the same type of loco but with variations in the boiler fittings and in the MD green livery. Then there is the later modifications such as cabs and the ones that were sold off to such as the Cambrian and the Mersey Railways.

Also can be easily modified for LNWR use 

[Lord of Narnia]

The red strip versions were definitely in service, and included Q38 DMs, so it is a legitimate livery, more so perhaps than others we have seen.

 

The all-1935 stock train dates from when the trains were delivered with air doors I think. These were soon converted to hand doors in their N stock days so that they could run with the standard district fleet.

The 'all' 1935 stock trains were actually known a M stock and the 28 cars (4x6 cars plus a spare 4 car set) were used to suppliment the existing 1905 joint stock for the run out to Barking. This batch was fitted with EP brakes but only 2 of the 6 car trains were provided with air doors. The 26 N stock trailers were built for the District and were added to the existing BTH formations of B/C/D/E/G/H/K/L stock cars. These 26 trailers, along with the 14 M stock trailers (with the EP brakes disconnected and the 6 trailers with air doors converted to hand operated) were used after 1938 in H stock formations with C/D/E motors and trailers. It was not until the early 1950s that the L/M/N trailers were converted to Q stock trailers. Therefore in the early days (1938-1950) all Q stock trains were formed with Q23/27/31/35/38 motors and only Q38 trailers giving a strange appearance!

 

I hadn't noticed the window vents on the Q38/O/P stock. I must look at those further before continuing. Thanks

[GoingUnderground]

The least mixed Q Stock formation would be a set comprising Q38 only, I believe there was one formed when the older Q stock cars were being withdrawn. Spot the difference between Q38 and CP stock.

[Metr0Land]

I think there were actually 2 four-car sets of fully Q38 in the end?  Splitting hairs of course as most layouts could only justify 1 set anyway 

 

Only difference for modelling as far as I can see is those cable things on front of Q38?

[Xerces Fobe2]

I think there were actually 2 four-car sets of fully Q38 in the end?  Splitting hairs of course as most layouts could only justify 1 set anyway 

 

Only difference for modelling as far as I can see is those cable things on front of Q38?

 

There were 2 four car Q38 trains which were formed after the units were rewired the limiting factor being that  only 2 D motor cars were ever rewired.

 

XF

[GoingUnderground]

Checking Piers Connor, there were only two types of R-stock vehicle, DM, converted from Q stock, so we already have the body, and NDM. Only 6 DMs were built new.

 

Is it worth producing an R-Stock NDM body shell? Perhaps, because that is the only route to silver trains.

 

As I said, no manufacturer need commit to this programme in advance, because it can be created incrementally, and the LTM returning a Q-stock train to service is bound to generate interest.

I'd fprgotten that there were so few true R stock DMs. I think that weakens your case for producing R Stock as it would limit their use to unpowered centre cars in a formation topped and tailed by R38 (i.e. converted Q38 DMs). So the number of R cars that could be sold is further reduced unless the manufacturer went for the rare "all new build" R stock formation.

[Guest maxthemapman]

Manufacturer has O/P stock selling well, but red liveries only.

 

Liveries sell.

 

Manufacturer already has half the cars for R stock fully made up (Q38)

 

R stock needs just one extra car, NDM

 

R stock has same-shaped body shell, just different door/window spacing, and slight changes to front/ventilator shape (a really good CAD person could surely go straight from drawings/photographs to modified CAD in a day)

 

R stock NDM produced easily, manufacturer doubles livery options.

 

I don't get your argument. It is easier to get from OPQ to R than OPQ to G, most of the development work is done, the changes are easy because it is the flared sides that are hard to get right.

 

And it is not a million miles from what EFE did to produce both 1938 and 59/62 stock.

[GoingUnderground]

Manufacturer has O/P stock selling well, but red liveries only.

 

Liveries sell.

 

Manufacturer already has half the cars for R stock fully made up (Q38)

 

R stock needs just one extra car, NDM

 

R stock has same-shaped body shell, just different door/window spacing, and slight changes to front/ventilator shape (a really good CAD person could surely go straight from drawings/photographs to modified CAD in a day)

 

R stock NDM produced easily, manufacturer doubles livery options.

 

I don't get your argument. It is easier to get from OPQ to R than OPQ to G, most of the development work is done, the changes are easy because it is the flared sides that are hard to get right.

 

And it is not a million miles from what EFE did to produce both 1938 and 59/62 stock.

I never mentioned G stock. I agree it is easier to turn OPQ into R, after all R was just OPQ updated to take advantage of technological changes, much as you pointed out 59/62 Tube Stock was just 38 stock updated. I just don't think there's any market for R, as the the untutored eye it is identical to OPQ but is not red. I would be happy to be proved wrong.

 

Incidentally EFE has, so I have heard, a lot of the 59 Tube Stock in corporate livery left on its hands.

[Metr0Land]

Incidentally EFE has, so I have heard, a lot of the 59 Tube Stock in corporate livery left on its hands.

 

It would save me a job if they resprayed them and re-did the fronts to make '56 stock.  OK they can't do the Glocs ones because of the rainstrips above the doors, but the other 2 sets should be ok?

[SRman]

I never mentioned G stock. I agree it is easier to turn OPQ into R, after all R was just OPQ updated to take advantage of technological changes, much as you pointed out 59/62 Tube Stock was just 38 stock updated. I just don't think there's any market for R, as the the untutored eye it is identical to OPQ but is not red. I would be happy to be proved wrong.

 

Incidentally EFE has, so I have heard, a lot of the 59 Tube Stock in corporate livery left on its hands.

I never mentioned G stock. I agree it is easier to turn OPQ into R, after all R was just OPQ updated to take advantage of technological changes, much as you pointed out 59/62 Tube Stock was just 38 stock updated. I just don't think there's any market for R, as the the untutored eye it is identical to OPQ but is not red. I would be happy to be proved wrong.

 

Incidentally EFE has, so I have heard, a lot of the 59 Tube Stock in corporate livery left on its hands.

Essentially, I suggested that only the R stock NDM need be manufactured to add to the R38 DMs for a fairly typical R stock train to be formed at minimal extra cost to a manufacturer.

 

Don' t forget that much of the R stock was red until the 1960s and mixed colour formations regularly occurred.

 

Also, besides the different window and door spacing, those side window vents were different, although probably fairly easy to adapt from the earlier style in the CAD drawings.

 

Going back to what I posted earlier, to cater for most O, P and R stock train formations, three body shell mouldings would be needed; OPQ38R38 DM, OPQ38 T, R NDM. Those don't cover all possible train formations but would give a good start for typical trains of OPR stock plus the previously mentioned four car sets of Q38 trains.

 

I would love it if this did occur but I fear we are just wishing, here.

[GoingUnderground]

You don't need a separate moulding for the trailer on OPQ38 as the trailers were the same as the DMs as the intention was to motorise them at some point in the future. The trailers were an afterthought when LT realised that an all motor car train as planned might be too much for the electrical infrastructure and inserted a trailer into the formation to reduce the electrical load. All that is needed to turn the trailer into a DM is to remove the seats from the cab and insert a bulkhead plus driving controls IIRC..

 

That's why OPQ38 is possible as it can all be done with a single body, apart from the vent on the O Stock DM, can't remember whether it was the A or D end that differed from P Stock.

 

O/P and COP is simply a different underbody equipment moulding.

 

I'm off to the LT museum now.

[SRman]

Perfectly true - I covered that in an earlier post though. Originally I said two or possibly three body mouldings were needed but to simplify that last post I just said three!

 

As EFE have done, underframe mouldings could be separate to allow for the permutations as the R stock had different details for nearly every position within a train. If one really wants to be pedantic, the O and P stock A end motors had heavier underframes too, to support the extra weight of the Metadyne machines.

[Lord of Narnia]

The main differences btw the cars as I recall are as follows.

 

O stock DMs did not have a ventilator at the A end. The D end vent was of the same design as the Standard stock cars.

Q38 stock DMs had ward couplers rather than wedgelock. They also had pipes on the front (these differed from A and D ends) They had different underframes too.

R38 stock either had ward couplers (A end) or wedgelock coupler (D ends). They also had door fault light housing and a smaller cab front box for the set number rather than a larger one for the destination plates.

 

When delivered, several all Q38 stock trains (motors and trailers) ran on the Metropolitan Line until sufficient P stock was available. In 1971, 7 4 car Q38 stock trains were prepared for the ELL but they were soon replaced by CP stock.

[LULFAN]

Just in from an email from hattons

 

"It’s going to be a very exciting weekend for OO Gauge modellers, with the announcement of the 2013/2014 range from Bachmann this coming Sunday the 10th of March at the Coventry Transport Museum show"

 

I wonder if there will be news on any LT models ??

 

S stock maybe ??