SECR Birdcage Coaches

[Nick Holliday]

There were a few dual-braked Brighton engines, usually at sheds that were adjacent to other companies' lines - Bradley does list the locos so fitted, but as I'm 12,000 miles away from my bookshelf, I can't check if/which E4s may have been so fitted...

Bradley seems to indicate that, sadly, no E4 had vacuum brakes before grouping. A handful of its larger cousin, the E5, were, and they were allocated to sheds where interchange traffic from the SECR or LSWR might be expected, St Leonards, Horsham and Fratton.

I wonder whether any SECR carriage stock was dual braked, to allow it to run on foreign lines. Unfortunately, the only reference I have, Coutanche's book on bogie stock, makes no mention of braking, even though some of the stock described was designed specifically for use on through trains, and must have had some provision for working with air-braked stock from other lines.

[Richard Jones]

Any indication when the composite in Southern Railway "olive" livery is likely to be released? (As with the brake 3rds, I have mine on "pre-order"

Cheers

Richard

[SRman]

F2F43736-175A-41E8-81D1-3EB7063D254D.png

 

You get about 5m of lights, can be cut to the required size.

 

I have some similar strips, but they are very bright. How did you dim them to reasonable levels, Peter?

 

Bradley seems to indicate that, sadly, no E4 had vacuum brakes before grouping. A handful of its larger cousin, the E5, were, and they were allocated to sheds where interchange traffic from the SECR or LSWR might be expected, St Leonards, Horsham and Fratton.

I wonder whether any SECR carriage stock was dual braked, to allow it to run on foreign lines. Unfortunately, the only reference I have, Coutanche's book on bogie stock, makes no mention of braking, even though some of the stock described was designed specifically for use on through trains, and must have had some provision for working with air-braked stock from other lines.

 

You could always run the E4 (or any other 'Brighton' loco) with the birdcage set at slow speed with a brake van tacked on the end - stock movements/deliveries.

Edited January 10, 2018 by SRman

[pete_mcfarlane]

I wonder whether any SECR carriage stock was dual braked, to allow it to run on foreign lines. Unfortunately, the only reference I have, Coutanche's book on bogie stock, makes no mention of braking, even though some of the stock described was designed specifically for use on through trains, and must have had some provision for working with air-braked stock from other lines.

Not necessarily - air braked railways were very much a minority in pre-group days. The SECR stock designed for through workings was interchanged with the Midland, GWR and LNWR which were all vacuum braked lines. In later SECR days they used some rather nice gangwayed brake composites for these workings. 

 

Air braked SECR stock was mainly (if not entirely) stuff inherited from the Chatham, which was slowly fitted with vacuum brakes. 

[GNR Dave]

There is a photo on Ebay showing a B4 with a birdcage 3 set in Southern livery at Hackbridge, an LB&SCR station in Surrey.

[adb968008]

There is a photo on Ebay showing a B4 with a birdcage 3 set in Southern livery at Hackbridge, an LB&SCR station in Surrey.

pretty certain thats not Hackbridge.

 

Hackbridge is all curves, bar a short straight section that had a single arch bridge for the mineral railway which was only taken down last year. On the side of that arch is marshland lower than track level.

 

This picture has a multi arch bridge, with track at lower level and grasslands above it.

 

I’m thinking it could be the Carshalton beeches line, maybe between Waddon and Wallington, but they are mostly single arch too, or may further north of Mitcham junction ?

 

Anyone tell what the train code is from the discs ?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PHOTO-SR-EX-LB-SCR-CLASS-B4X-LOCO-NO-2043-AT-HACKBRIDGE-1938/362206518077?hash=item545530db3d:g:rboAAOSwr81USA1C

Edited January 11, 2018 by adb968008

[Wickham Green]

Any indication when the composite in Southern Railway "olive" livery is likely to be released? (As with the brake 3rds, I have mine on "pre-order"

Cheers

Richard

No indication whatsoever on the Hattons site when I looked yesterday .............. my pair of brakes are feeling decidedly lonely !

[Limpley Stoker]

No indication whatsoever on the Hattons site when I looked yesterday .............. my pair of brakes are feeling decidedly lonely !

And I’m getting lots of complaints from first class passengers.....

[Nick Holliday]

pretty certain thats not Hackbridge.

Hackbridge is all curves, bar a short straight section that had a single arch bridge for the mineral railway which was only taken down last year. On the side of that arch is marshland lower than track level.

This picture has a multi arch bridge, with track at lower level and grasslands above it.

I’m thinking it could be the Carshalton beeches line, maybe between Waddon and Wallington, but they are mostly single arch too, or may further north of Mitcham junction ?

Anyone tell what the train code is from the discs ?https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PHOTO-SR-EX-LB-SCR-CLASS-B4X-LOCO-NO-2043-AT-HACKBRIDGE-1938/362206518077?hash=item545530db3d:g:rboAAOSwr81USA1C

Semgonline gives the 1934 headcode as being to Portsmouth via Mitcham Junction, and I certainly don't think it's on the West Croydon to autonomy line.

Not sure what you mean by Hackbridge being all curves, as the line to Mitcham Junction is as straight as a die for some distance, with a number of overbridges, whose form I cannot currently recall. I also don't think any of the bridges wer associated with the mineral line, assuming you are referring to the Surrey Iron Railway, which ran to the west of the mainline.

[Wickham Green]

Semgonline gives the 1934 headcode as being to Portsmouth via Mitcham Junction, and I certainly don't think it's on the West Croydon to autonomy line.

Not sure what you mean by Hackbridge being all curves, as the line to Mitcham Junction is as straight as a die for some distance, with a number of overbridges, whose form I cannot currently recall. I also don't think any of the bridges wer associated with the mineral line, assuming you are referring to the Surrey Iron Railway, which ran to the west of the mainline.

Hackbridge STATION is, indeed, on a curve - but there's a long straight to the north between two three-arch bridges and spanned by a third so somewhere there is perfectly plausible ........... judging by the birdseye view on Bing maps the fields beyond the train may be new-looking housing.

( Must admit I didn't realise Sutton had gained Autonomous Area status ..... whatever next ? )

[adb968008]

Hackbridge STATION is, indeed, on a curve - but there's a long straight to the north between two three-arch bridges and spanned by a third so somewhere there is perfectly plausible ........... judging by the birdseye view on Bing maps the fields beyond the train may be new-looking housing.

( Must admit I didn't realise Sutton had gained Autonomous Area status ..... whatever next ? )

Long straight.. there’s not many of them around there, unless you mean Hornby R601 ?

 

Mitcham is straight, and straight upto towards Croydon to..

 

But the only straight bit around a Hackbridge, the line is raised, as it’s going through a swamp..and it’s of course climbing all the way to Sutton. there’s no swamps in that picture..it’s rising hillside, that’s what made me suspicious, unless of course in the last 70 years the lands been taken away and it’s sunk to a swamp ?

 

Could it be taken between Mitcham junction and Mitcham Eastfields.. plenty of straight line, with grassy rolling hill there, even today and some candidate bridges.

 

FYI, whilst looking around for other pictures around here, I came across this std 4 tank 80012 at East Croydon with Birdcages...

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/img/s/v-3/p1980261384-3.jpg

 

And 80013

 

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/img/s/v-3/p107299700-3.jpg

Edited January 11, 2018 by adb968008

[Richard Jones]

Just to add, post grouping, the Southern increasingly fitted vacuum ejectors to quite a number of classes of Brighton locos, ironically Westinghouse pumps were fitted to South Western M7 class and South Eastern H class when the SR adopted the Brighton's air operated push pull system

 

There were a few dual-braked Brighton engines, usually at sheds that were adjacent to other companies' lines - Bradley does list the locos so fitted, but as I'm 12,000 miles away from my bookshelf, I can't check if/which E4s may have been so fitted...

Edited January 12, 2018 by Richard Jones

[trevor7598]

Just to add, post grouping, the Southern increasingly fitted vacuum ejectors to quite a number of classes of Brighton locos, ironically Westinghouse pumps were fitted to South Western M7 class and South Eastern H class when the SR adopted the Brighton's air operated push pull system

 

 

In Southern Railway days it was very much a case of mix and match. As you say H and M7 tanks were fitted with Westinghouse

air pumps for pull /push , while many LBSC coaches were converted to vacuum brake before the decision was taken to eliminate

ordinary LBSC steam hauled stock.

And this is where the Birdcage sets came in, as they took over the duties of former LBSC stock on many lines in Sussex.

Interestingly the inner stepboard on the bogies ( as modelled by Bachmann on the SECR liveried Birdcages ) was removed by the SR as

presumably it was foul of somewhere off the old SECR system. 

[GNR Dave]

The bridge in the background is the one a few hundred yards to the north of Hackbridge station. It was IIRC called New Bridge for decades after it was built (for access to the farmland to the west, cut off by construction of the railway) . If you go onto Google maps satelite view you will see the straight section of track to the north of the bridge. The bridge no longer has vehicular access but is used by dog walkers and for access to the bird sanctuary where the farm used to be. The landscape has changed very little since the pic was taken other than a few houses which would be just out of shot to the right of the photo.

 

GNR Dave

(Hackbridge resident)

[Nick Holliday]

The bridge in the background is the one a few hundred yards to the north of Hackbridge station. It was IIRC called New Bridge for decades after it was built (for access to the farmland to the west, cut off by construction of the railway) . If you go onto Google maps satelite view you will see the straight section of track to the north of the bridge. The bridge no longer has vehicular access but is used by dog walkers and for access to the bird sanctuary where the farm used to be. The landscape has changed very little since the pic was taken other than a few houses which would be just out of shot to the right of the photo.

 

GNR Dave

(Hackbridge resident)

Thanks for sorting that out. Saves me dragging the long suffering, and old, bearded collie around Hackbridge, as she doesn't like the thistles along the path!

The gradient along this section was a relatively shallow 1:300, the real climb to Sutton, at around 1:90, began after Hackbridge station, with only a brief section at 1:200 to afford relief, at Carshalton station.

[Wickham Green]

In Southern Railway days it was very much a case of mix and match. As you say H and M7 tanks were fitted with Westinghouse

air pumps for pull /push , while many LBSC coaches were converted to vacuum brake before the decision was taken to eliminate

ordinary LBSC steam hauled stock.

And this is where the Birdcage sets came in, as they took over the duties of former LBSC stock on many lines in Sussex.

Interestingly the inner stepboard on the bogies ( as modelled by Bachmann on the SECR liveried Birdcages ) was removed by the SR as

presumably it was foul of somewhere off the old SECR system. 

Just to clarify that - it may not be the 'H' thread but the Southern Railway didn't actually fit Pull & Push gear to a single example of that class - that happened under British Airways ............ a number of 'R' and 'R1' 0-4-4Ts WERE equipped in earlier years.

[No Decorum]

Just to clarify that - it may not be the 'H' thread but the Southern Railway didn't actually fit Pull & Push gear to a single example of that class - that happened under British Airways ............ a number of 'R' and 'R1' 0-4-4Ts WERE equipped in earlier years.

Were they fitted with wings as well?

[Wickham Green]

Were they fitted with wings as well?

Well done Pike - I wondered who'd be first to spot that !

[Oldddudders]

Thanks for sorting that out. Saves me dragging the long suffering, and old, bearded collie around Hackbridge, as she doesn't like the thistles along the path!

Do I not recall there was a doggie burial ground on the up side, country end of the station?

[Nick Holliday]

Do I not recall there was a doggie burial ground on the up side, country end of the station?

Don't know about a doggie cemetery, but there was the famous quarantine kennels located on the up side, at the Sutton end of the station. More recently a factory estate and now a developing housing project.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Nick Holliday

[Limpley Stoker]

What happened to Hackbridge Cables? I remember their cables reels loaded on flat wagons in their siding during the early 60’s. No sign oh SECR coaches then.

[adb968008]

The bridge in the background is the one a few hundred yards to the north of Hackbridge station. It was IIRC called New Bridge for decades after it was built (for access to the farmland to the west, cut off by construction of the railway) . If you go onto Google maps satelite view you will see the straight section of track to the north of the bridge. The bridge no longer has vehicular access but is used by dog walkers and for access to the bird sanctuary where the farm used to be. The landscape has changed very little since the pic was taken other than a few houses which would be just out of shot to the right of the photo.

 

GNR Dave

(Hackbridge resident)

 

We must be near neighbours, I live off the Wallington line.

I was thinking (almost) to go down there and have a look, but weren't the bridges demolished recently ?

Every time Ive seen it from the train.. its swamp.. apart from that big incinerator being built close by.

 

Hackbridge, Like Mitcham looked to have sidings back in the day, but I haven't seen any pictures. I was always surprised given the size of Carshalton, that neither it's stations had any sidings, though Wallington looks to have been subtstantial.

 

Whilst looking up old pictures of these line's online (can't find any more birdcages), I noticed a few of the overhead wires, you can still see cutoff's from those gantries at West Croydon, that and where the bomb exploded in 1941 raises the section of plat 3 which if you look still have it's temporary repair visible (I point these reminders from history out to my daughter as we travel then pull out the books to show her how it was).

 

meanwhile maybe some day Sutton can visit its owners.

http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news/9165171.The_mystery_of_the_missing_locomotive/

Edited January 12, 2018 by adb968008

[phil gollin]

.

 

Ah !  Another "neighbour" here, although from near Mitcham station.  I remember the Cable factory/yard, AND the quarantine kennels.

 

Yes, Mitcham had a yard (beyond the road bridge towards Wimbledon) initially to serve Mitcham gas works and some factories (including a coal by-products one and a paint factory).  When the St Helier estate was being built the yard was used for building materials and there was a contractor's line running from between Mitcham and Mitcham junction over the Wandle and onto the estate.  In the fifties it became an Engineers/S & T yard.

 

Some photos ;

 

St Helier's contractor line ;

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/100795926@N02/31990484456/in/photostream/lightbox/

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/100795926@N02/31219387113/in/dateposted/

 

A busy Mitcham yard ;

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/100795926@N02/31188249214/in/dateposted/

 

Aerial view ;

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/100795926@N02/31912030271/in/dateposted/

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/100795926@N02/31881033082/in/dateposted/

 

There are other views in that Album that might be relevant.

[Turbo_Tim]

No indication whatsoever on the Hattons site when I looked yesterday .............. my pair of brakes are feeling decidedly lonely !

I feel your pain. I'm waiting too - Southern livery Birdcages and H Class seems to have been a bad choice in terms of waiting for their arrival. Be nice to know where they are and when they're coming.

[Limpley Stoker]

I feel your pain. I'm waiting too - Southern livery Birdcages and H Class seems to have been a bad choice in terms of waiting for their arrival. Be nice to know where they are and when they're coming.

Let’s hope they haven’t ended up in the Streatham Common condemned coaches sidings before we got to run them!

 

I found this pic said to be at Cheam ( I lived there ‘53- ‘63 ).and I think it is taken near the road bridge carrying the Epsom road, near Nonsuch School.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Limpley Stoker