GWR four-plank wagon from Coopercraft kit + GWR one-plank wagons

[wagonman]

Richard, can you not keep your current 5141 and renumber it to one of the 950 standard wagons that had the 15' 6" x 7' 5" dimensions? Or maybe you only want wagons that there are photos of?

 

You are quite right of course, I could renumber it though I do generally prefer to model a specific prototype (in other words I don't know any numbers of suitable wagons!). By the way, if you want guidance with a scratchbuild I'd happily oblige.

[Mikkel]

Thanks very much Richard. We're going on holiday elsewhere in teh country soon and I was thinking of starting on the 18ft one-planker as a challenge for the evenings. I will build it in plastic as that is what I feel most confident about.

 

I have been looking at underframe parts. The MJT parts for the W-irons, grease axle boxes and springs look nice, although they are not 9-leaf springs. The Mainly trains etches with corner plates, crown plates etc looks good.

I'm currently working out the dimensions in mms. Apart from the drawing of the 18ft wagon in Atkins et al there is conveniently also a drawing of the solebar, floor and sideplank arrangements for a single plank open on p 41, incl measurements. 

 

BTW this has strayed completely off-topic, sorry folks!

[Il Grifone]

Don't forget that the 3-plank wagons were only 15' 6" long...

 

Many years ago, I converted a Kirk (shows how many years!) 4 planker into a 3. At the time, I didn't realise this and it is too long to this day (one of those 'one day' jobs).

 

The Kirk axleboxes have plenty of 'meat' to file into grease boxes.

 

Incidently the ABS 4 plank kit has grease boxes.

Edited July 16, 2013 by Il Grifone

[Garethp8873]

I don't know if these photos I took of 41277 on the SVR may help you never know. If you need more photos let me know.

 

Garethp8873.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2013 by Garethp8873

[Miss Prism]

If the bones of that really are 41277, it's over 120 years old.

 

Mikkel might approve, or disapprove, of the livery...

[buffalo]

If the bones of that really are 41277, it's over 120 years old.

Could be, square-ended buffer beams, L-section end stanchions...

 

Nick

[Miss Prism]

Actually, Nick, it's the shape of the L-section end stanchions that look like modern replacements to me.

 

Even so, a remarkable specimen.

[Garethp8873]

Quick history lesson on 41277;

 

• The oldest survivor (Diagram 021, Lot 556) of 18000 standard Open Wagons constructed between 1886 and 1902. The 813 Fund which own 41277 also own two other Open Wagons from this period. These are 51237 (built 1892) and 52243 (built 1896).
• Was sold out of GWR service in 1935 and has the distinction of having been withdrawn before of the ex-GWR Severn Valley wagons were even built.
• Was purchased in derelict condition at Sharpness Docks in 1984 and livery it has been restored in is 1890 "Broad Gauge" livery style according to the latest SVR Stock book in 1998.

The information is from the SVR Stock book from 1998.

 

Garethp8873.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Garethp8873

[buffalo]

Actually, Nick, it's the shape of the L-section end stanchions that look like modern replacements to me.

Yes, I was thinking about the section rather than the metal itself. I suspect this wagon was rebuilt from an underframe in much the same condition as 51237 and 52243 in Gareth's links above. Looking closely at Gareth's photos, most of the metalwork, especially the corner plates and the door hinges, look slike recent replacements.

 

Apart from the section, though, the stanchion shape looks odd to me. As I understand it, L-sections on the ends of opens are early, with T-section appearing around the turn of the century. However, the shallow angle of tapering on this wagon is not something I've noticed before on the L type. Usually, they are tapered only over the top few inches. The long taper does seem to be quite common, but not universal, on later wagons (maybe from around 1910?) with T-section stanchions.

 

...

• The oldest survivor (Diagram 021, Lot 556) of 18000 standard Open Wagons constructed between 1886 and 1902...
• ...
• ... livery it has been restored in is 1890 "Broad Gauge" livery style according to the latest SVR Stock book in 1998.

The information is from the SVR Stock book from 1998.

 

Thanks for that information, Gareth. Yes it is O21, but remember that this diagram and lot refers only to the fitting of the single shoe lever brake on the previously unbraked side in 1927. Previously, these wagons had not be assigned to a diagram.

 

Even if we still have many questions, our understanding of GWR wagon liveries has moved on since 1998. That livery probably dates to no earlier than about 1893/4. In the final years of the broad gauge, wagons had "G.W.R" towards the left end and their number towards the right end. Then there's the red/grey question...

 

Nick

Edited July 21, 2013 by buffalo

[Garethp8873]

From I can guess, I don't think it will be long before 41277 will be having an overhaul. At the moment they have their hands full with replacing the roof of the GWR S&T Tool Van 80982 along with the GWR Chaired Sleeper 40554 (both being 813 Fund wagons).

 

The last time I remember being it being in the yard at Bewdley was between September/October 2010, after having suffered damage to the buffers during a shunt. During this time though, they were working on the BR Cattle Wagon 891054 and GWR Mica B Van 105873 along with the Chaired Sleeper. Since then it has been pulled out and sits with several other wagons down a siding just as you leave Bewdley heading to Bridgnorth known as the Tenbury Lane. I don't know if the damage has been sorted but I doubt it has. They may be awaiting for a slot to open up and then put it in but it will have competition from several others including the Brecon & Merthyr Open Wagon 197 will requires a major restoration which will include replacing several interior boards which have now fallen through.

 

The livery is probably following the same practice as what they have done with LNER Mineral Wagon 223162 which has been painted up as "Highley Mining Co." 162 at the Engine House in Highley to show the tourists a typical PO wagon.

 

Garethp8873.

Edited July 21, 2013 by Garethp8873

[wagonman]

The solebars appear to be channel rather than bulb but otherwise are very convincing – for me the only jarring note (leaving aside arguments about colour) are the end stanchions which look like those fitted in the 1930s. They should be parallel with just a short angle (about 45°) at the top.

 

For 1890s style they would have to remove the second set of brakes and retro-fit grease boxes!

[MarkAustin]

It's not an O21 as it only has the brakle on one side. Presumably it was sold rather than convert it to O21.

[buffalo]

It's not an O21 as it only has the brakle on one side. Presumably it was sold rather than convert it to O21.

If you're referring to Gareth's photos of 41277 in post #29, then I suggest you take another look. The last photo clearly shows the additional single block brake.

 

Nick

[Mikkel]

Thanks for posting those photos, Gareth. I'm on an erratic internet connection at the moment so apologies if I have missed something, but: Would any of those planks date back to before 1904? Or would they all have been replaced long ago...  It would be interesting to have a look for the original layer of paint. I would think archaelogists had the tools and techniques to do something like that nowadays?

[Buckjumper]

It would be interesting to have a look for the original layer of paint. I would think archaelogists had the tools and techniques to do something like that nowadays?

 

Back in the early 80s a member of the GER Soc. who was a serving police officer, asked a colleague in forensics look at some full-depth paint chippings taken from a cast plate attached to the headstock of a carriage withdrawn just after Grouping. Following tests, an astonishing twenty six layers of paint and varnish (plus several layers of dirt!) from the pre-Grouping period were discovered.

 

Edit: Grammar

Edited July 26, 2013 by Buckjumper

[Garethp8873]

Thanks for posting those photos, Gareth. I'm on an erratic internet connection at the moment so apologies if I have missed something, but: Would any of those planks date back to before 1904? Or would they all have been replaced long ago...  It would be interesting to have a look for the original layer of paint. I would think archaelogists had the tools and techniques to do something like that nowadays?

 

Hello Mikkel, Not a problem whatsoever. In my opinion, I doubt any of 41277's woodwork is original. As it states in the last SVR Stockbook from 1998, it was purchased in derelict condition at Sharpness Docks in 1984. If it was in that state when it arrived on the SVR, it would have gone under for a full overhaul. Since arriving on the SVR in 1984, 41277 has only had the one overhaul in my knowledge.

 

Going on the subject of original layers of paint though; during the overhaul of 1896 built GWR Gunpowder Van 58725 in 1980, traces of Southern livery were discovered. This would have been from when it had been on loan to the Southern Railway during the Second World War. Rather remarkable when can be discovered when a wagon is overhauled!!

 

Garethp8873.

 

Edited July 25, 2013 by Garethp8873

[Castle]

Going on the subject of original layers of paint though; during the overhaul of 1896 built GWR Gunpowder Van 58725 in 1980, traces of Southern livery were discovered. This would have been from when it had been on loan to the Southern Railway during the Second World War. Rather remarkable when can be discovered when a wagon is overhauled!!

Hi All,

 

The great wagon overhaul story from Didcot (possibly apocryphal) is that when CROCODILE F No. 41934 was repainted, faint traces of its WW2 livery was discovered - complete with swastikas!

 

For those that don't know this wagon went out with the BEF to France in 1939. Left behind undamaged after Dunkirk it was press ganged into service by the whermacht until the post D-Day invasion brought it back under Allied control. The GWR asked for it back and home it came to survive into preservation. The problem with this tale is that there is no photographic evidence of it but I hope its true!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

 

Purveyor of Tall Tales Extrodinare. Threads Hijacked at No Extra Cost.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Castle

[Mikkel]

I've dug out this old thread as I recently came across a photo which I think may show one of the GWR one-plank wagons discussed. There aren't a lot of photos of these wagons around and I have never seen this photo mentioned before in the literature.

 

Note especially the enlargement available in the r/h column.

 

http://www.dudleymall.co.uk/loclhist/roundoak/roundoak.htm

 

Edited to correct link

Edited August 24, 2015 by Mikkel

[corneliuslundie]

The right hand part of the photo, as far as the centre of the arch, appears on the dustjacket of the book cited on the Pensnett Railway. But there are no photos of wagons in the book itself except some internal users in 1966.

 

Jonathan

[wagonman]

I've dug out this old thread as I recently came across a photo which I think may show one of the GWR one-plank wagons discussed. There aren't a lot of photos of these wagons around and I have never seen this photo mentioned before in the literature.

 

Note especially the enlargement available in the r/h column.

 

http://www.dudleymall.co.uk/loclhist/roundoak/roundoak.htm

 

Edited to correct link

 

Damn. Can't make out the number, though it does look like one of the 18ft wagons...

[Gordon A]

In the last of Garethp8873's four pictures (Post 29) of the wagon there appears to be what I take as two bump stops on the sole bar either side of the V hangar, but they don't appear in any of the other pictures???

 

Gordon A

Bristol

[Mikkel]

Damn. Can't make out the number, though it does look like one of the 18ft wagons...

 

Yes, I also tried enlarging the photo to see the number, but very hard to decipher. Second number seems to be 4, but that's not much use.

 

 

In the last of Garethp8873's four pictures (Post 29) of the wagon there appears to be what I take as two bump stops on the sole bar either side of the V hangar, but they don't appear in any of the other pictures???

 

Gordon A

Bristol

 

Well spotted. I think it must be another wagon. Looking at the track it seems to be standing in a different spot.

[Compound2632]

@Mikkel. @wagonman, I'm just commenting here so that I have a fighting chance of finding this very informative old thread again!