Clean locos and rolling stock

[mikeandnel]

Just to start a bit of a discussion going!

Having created a model in the pre-group period, I prefer to keep all my stock in ex-works condition, i.e., no weathering.

Apart from the fact that early pre-group railway companies took pride in their locos, particularly looking clean in order to attract passengers, I personally can see no point in spending hours painting and lining or lettering stock, making a personally satisfactory job of it, and then making it all dirty!.

So what do you all out there think? 

I am already ducking!

 

Michael

[Oldddudders]

I'm with you. In both prototype and model, beautiful paint schemes should be seen and appreciated as their builders intended. Burgundy's recent triumph of an LBSCR loco looks so good that I suggested that any significant weathering was surely spoiling the effect, and I believe he stepped back from full weathering.

 

Unfortunately we live in a modelling era when weathering is seen as the last thing in authenticity. Undoubtedly much of it is done very skilfully and represents the way locos and stock looked in the latter years of steam - and most years of diesel/electric traction. That doesn't mean it's the way the owners and operators wished it to look, and part of the fantasy of modelling for me is that trains should be clean and smart. Perhaps having run carriage-cleaning depots in my murky past may have something to do with it!

[Miss Prism]

There's a big difference in my view between 'clean' and 'ex-works'. Just look at pregrouping wheels, motion, footplates, roofs, etc etc.

[Mrkirtley800]

I am with you there mikeandnel.  I model Midland Railway circa 1908 and there is no way that I will dirty up my locos and carriages especially as they have been painted and lined for me.  A couple of locos which I have painted are weathered, but apart from that it is pristine, and do you know what,  I don't care.

Derek

[mikeandnel]

For Oldddudders and Derek

Good to know that I am not alone in my way of thinking about this subject

Being 80 YOA I can remember as a train-spotter seeing trains before the war

that appeared to be clean, and they can still be seen on most preserved lines

in that condition because the people involved like to see them that way.

Same for me with my models

 

For Miss Prism

I appreciate what you say so I must plump for ex-works condition with my stock.

When younger modellers only know the condition of todays stock, then, of course, they

will model stock dirty, in the interests of authenticity as they know it.But I find the liveries of  

pre-group locos and rolling stock to be so colourful that weathering them almost seems a crime!

 

Regards to you all

 

Michael

[jcm@gwr]

I'm afraid this is a 'me too' post!

 

Although I can understand Miss Prism's point.

I think, as and when the layout gets closer to

being done, I will go for very light weathering

in the lower areas.

 

The current trend seems to be that everything

needs to be weathered to represent the stock

the day before it was scrapped!

 

Jeff

[davknigh]

Have a look at some of the pictures in Martyn Welch's book "The Art Of Weathering" and you'll see the difference between ex-works and 'clean' as Miss Prism points out. Weathering is supposed to be subtle and takes the usual caveat of "check your pictures".  Go out and compare your own car to one in a showroom and you'll see what I mean.

 

Cheers,

 

David

[MikeOxon]

Another factor is the methods that were used for cleaning. 

 

According to 'The Oxford Companion to British Railway History': "In Victorian days the cleaned paintwork on boilers, tenders, and tank sides was protected by a coating of tallow worked up by cleaners into a fishscale pattern using pads of cloth" 

 

I have seen photos that show this effect, looking a bit like the traditional cinema curtains.  It would be an interesting challenge to produce the effect on a model!

 

Mike

 

EDIT: for a photo, see my later post in this thread at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/74849-clean-locos-and-rolling-stock/?p=1163992

[alfsboy]

I would still lightly weather the motion and such .A small amount of air ,steam and water marks round joints would also look good .I would also weather  black areas ,again lightly .just to show detail up ,likewise oil  stains on parts that were suceptable to it .I used to do this when custom painting locos  .Although mainly American brass locos  and filthy ,some locos  such as early russia iron finished Mason bogies and early Cooks etc still looked good with just a tad of weathering ,almost to add some depth and detail,same for mint diesels .I Noted tornado was immaculate  when I saw her but close up still leaked and farted round joints and general track dirt  had accumulated in corners and spokes .So I suggest yes but gently and with thought .A general blow over with an airbrush is not the way to do it .my own method would be a very slight dusting of a dark greay round the chimney stack ,a light dusting on the black smokebox ,wheels and underframe but almost rubbed off on the latter .Same for any cab painting ,

Martin

[Poggy1165]

Hmm - interesting one. My grandfather told me that in pre group days locos were as clean as the ones in York museum - which (old version) we were visiting at the time. He remembered, as a young cleaner, having to clean the backs of driving wheels, and some guy used to come round with white gloves to check it had been done. On the other hand I believe standards dropped sharply from 1914, and I have in my collection of photos not a few GC engines looking rather weathered, especially goods and shunting engines. Of course engines had to get dirty in traffic to some extent, or there'd be no need to clean them, would there? But prior to 1914 I don't think there were too many BR-style filth encrusted wrecks running about.

 

Coaches were kept clean. Again, the GC Directors intervened when a particular rake got a bit mucky due to it being stationed overnight somewhere (Deepcar?) where they had no cleaning facilities. Arrangements were made to avoid this situation in future. That this sort of thing should be a matter for the Board is, I think, significant.

 

On the other hand, no one polished wagons, not even in the glory days. I think wagons should always be weathered, as I doubt they received even so much as a brush with a rag between repaints.

[Baby Deltic]

Unfortunately (or fortunately) for me, grime is a must. A clean train would look totally out of place on the prototype I have modeled. In pre-grouping days, the North London may have been nicer though!

[mikeandnel]

Wow!, what a response! So far it seems fairly evenly balanced between Clean, Dirty and Part weathered

I thought that this subject would get some comment and so it has.

 

For Poggy1165

This is the period that I prefer to model and your Grandad was, I'm sure, quite correct in his recollections.

Concerning wagons and vans, even if I tried to make them appear dirty or weathered, Then I probably could not

see it with my old eyes! 

 

For Alfsboy

Same goes for trying to replicate loose joints etc, in EM gauge, I would not be able to see it!

 

For Mike Oxon

If you think I am going to try coating my little efforts with tallow, Forget it!

But you are probably correct in what you say.

 

Anyway gentlemen, the subject is still open for comment. Many thanks

 

Michael

[billbedford]

Coaches were kept clean. Again, the GC Directors intervened when a particular rake got a bit mucky due to it being stationed overnight somewhere (Deepcar?) where they had no cleaning facilities. Arrangements were made to avoid this situation in future. That this sort of thing should be a matter for the Board is, I think, significant.

 

Really?

 

These coaches all had the same livery. I think you mean that front-line service coaches were kept moderately clean, but the cleaning on the rattle-trap boxes that were used fore lesser suburban and workmen's trains were more perfunctory.

 

And let's just remember that the were no fancy detergents or cleaning solutions pre WW1.

[mikeandnel]

For Bill Bedford

Thanks for the comment.

I was up on Mousa Island a month ago

Must have missed you!

Regards

Michael

[Poggy1165]

Nice picture Bill. I've seen it before, but for me it symbolises the wonder of the pre-group era. An Atlantic on three very mixed coaches. If that doesn't cry out to be modelled I don't know what does.

 

Are you sure the second coach ain't teak? I suppose it comes down to what we call clean. There is clean, and there is sparkling. Anyway, that GC Board action really did happen, and as the coaches in question were stabled overnight somewhere really quite obscure, I'd be surprised if they were stock for the Manchester to Marylebone crack express. But you are right - I can't guarantee that the 4 wheel stock taking miners to work was anything like as smart as the express rakes, and I suspect that it wasn't.

 

To return briefly to the question of locos - I've just been looking at a photo of a 9F (LNER N5) dated to 1911. And while it isn't anything like as dirty as the BR jobbies I recall in my youth, it sure as hell isn't clean either. I should describe it as rather more than lightly weathered. It doesn't appear to be lined either, although in theory it ought to be. As it seems to be on Nottingham (Victoria) pilot duties you might have thought they'd have kept it polished up, but no. Maybe the pre-group era wasn't quite as smartly turned out as we would like to think.

[asmay2002]

Weathering isn't just about whether things are clean or dirty.  Paint fades and varnish yellows (and white leaded roofs went grey because of a chemical reaction with the sulphorous fumes not because of dirt).  You can have something clean which doesn't look like it came straight out of the paint shop.  There are plenty of photos of LBSCR engines in Stroudley livery where the paint has come off the side tanks and polished metal shows through - a completely different weathering effect not often modelled.

 

Old photos can be a bit misleading too.  Pre WW1 glass plates for cameras were expensive and trains were numerous so photographers of the era were known to wait for a nice clean engine to photograph. If you look for photos of rarer prototypes you find pictures of dirtier engines even pre WW1 particularly with goods and shunting engines.  

 

What is needed is subtlty.  Any engine will kick up some dirt from the track as it moves at speed - straight off the shed it may be clean but it won't be around the wheels by journey's end.  What a well looked after engine won't have is lots of rust (beloved of  the more cack handed BR era weatherers). but it may still be a little dirty with paint that has detiorated a bit.

[burgundy]

An interesting discussion - and one with which I have been struggling for some time!

I admit cheerfully that many of my locos are in "ex-works" condition, but, for the last year or so, I have been trying to develop the techniques to give them the look of clean engines - but locos that are in traffic, rather than stuffed museum pieces.  

For starters, clean goods vehicles look a little odd to my eyes (and period photos suggest that they were unusual). The brake van below has therefore been given a light wash of grime to pick out crevices, plus some dry brushing to highlight the corners and flat surfaces that would have become faded.  

   

Much the same approach (a suggestion from Chris Cox)  has been used on these two K's 4 wheelers, using shades of brown that are a bit lighter to dry brush highlights and a bit darker for picking out the crevices. It is not intended to be glaringly obvious, but, when you stand them next to some vehicles that are simply sprayed in mahogany, you can see the difference.

Locos are a bit harder - especially when you have just painstakingly applied a full pre-group livery! It is also difficult to visualise how a pre-grouping livery might have weathered, given the absence of colour photos. Wandle is a straightforward repaint of a Dapol body - undertaken with the misguided intention of being a quickie.

Before

and after

This one went a bit further than I intended (which has encouraged me to do a bit more practice before I let loose on another full kit build) but there is nothing that cannot be found on contemporary photos of Terriers (subject to interpretation of colour). Leaking boiler feeds with polished metal around them. Stains around the condensing pipes. A bit of grime to suggest hard work around the murkier corners of industrial London.

The goods tank below is also shown before

    

and after

with much the same effects.

As Oldddudders has mentioned, I bottled out of giving Dieppe the same treatment - although the tender top was severely toned down from a "red lead" colour using black weathering powder; I can't imagine that it stayed red for very long with regular applications of coal dust.  

My personal view is that it would look better if the area below the footplate showed some evidence of oil and traffic film, to go with the half empty tender. However, for the moment, I can't quite visualise the effect that I would like to achieve nor can I think of the techniques to achieve it - so for the time being it is safe (rather than risk making a pig's ear of it)!

Hope this is of interest

Best wishes

Eric

[ian@stenochs]

Hi All,

 

This is a really interesting topic.  In my earlier modelling period I went for pristine ex works finish to all my pregrouping models.  However on seeing photographs of David Jenkinsons Kendal layout in the press and books it really hit home how unrealistic his models looked.  I know his models were very well built and true to prototype but the whole thing just shouted 'model' at me.  Since then all my pre group stuff has had some weathering. 

This is an example with what I like to think is a working but cared for locomotive where the upper works are only slightly dirty and the under frame more so.

 

Sorry about the creased sky!

 

Happy modelling,

 

Ian. 

[davknigh]

Eric,

 

Very nicely done, you seem to have captured the 'feel' that shows a working engine.

 

Just out of curiosity, where did you get the replacement safety valves for your Terrier? Are they commercial or scratch built?

 

Cheers,

 

David

[mikeandnel]

Hello Eric

A long and detailed post and I think that you may have cracked it with your approach.

I must admit that from what you say, I will have to look at dirtying up some (if not all) of my non-loco stock

but I am still not happy with the idea of destroying beautiful liveries as, like you, I would not have the foggiest

idea of how to give the locos that 'realistic' look.

I think that I will just have to continue to employ the same fanatical loco cleaning team!

Best regards

Michael

P.S. Incidentally, when do you expect to be back re the transfers?   

[chaz]

Hello Eric

A long and detailed post and I think that you may have cracked it with your approach.

I must admit that from what you say, I will have to look at dirtying up some (if not all) of my non-loco stock

but I am still not happy with the idea of destroying beautiful liveries as, like you, I would not have the foggiest

idea of how to give the locos that 'realistic' look.

I think that I will just have to continue to employ the same fanatical loco cleaning team!

Best regards

Michael

P.S. Incidentally, when do you expect to be back re the transfers?   

 

There need be no question of "destroying beautiful liveries". In pre-group days, when labour was cheap, the standard of cleanliness was very high. However it has to be accepted that a coal-fired steam loco must inevitably have got dirty whilst working - this was unavoidable. it is quite likely that when it had finished it's duties a gang of cleaners would have toiled to get it back to an impressively clean condition. BUT while it was working there would have been no escaping the effects of smoke, soot, ash, oil, grease and water.

 

Here's a snap of number 9. Without a doubt a clean, well looked-after machine, but look at the state of the top of the streamlined casing. It had just pulled a train from Alton (in Hampshire) to Worcester. Admittedly that's quite a long run but maybe equivalent to an average day's work for a loco?

 

 

 

Personally I think the kind of weathering needed to suggest a working machine that is subject to a thorough cleaning regime is the most difficult, but it can be done. I don't think a quick mist coat with an airbrush will answer, it's going to take some careful, detailed work.

 

However the last thing to say on the subject - on this as on so many other things RULE ONE APPLIES.

 

Chaz

[mikeandnel]

Hello Chaz

Your RULE ONE being?

Would it be something like: Do what and how you like to please yourself primarily?

Michael

[Oldddudders]

Hello Chaz

Your RULE ONE being?

Would it be something like: Do what and how you like to please yourself primarily?

Michael

I think that's the polite gist of it. "It's my railway and I'll do as I (bloomin' well) like!" is a more common version.

[burgundy]

Eric,

 

Just out of curiosity, where did you get the replacement safety valves for your Terrier? Are they commercial or scratch built?

 

Cheers,

 

David

David

The columns are from Branchlines and are turned brass. The levers are either out of the scrap box (left overs from some kit) or made up from a couple of bits of flat brass strip. Almost anything is better than the usual cast whitemetal efforts.

Best wishes

Eric

[chaz]

Hello Chaz

Your RULE ONE being?

Would it be something like: Do what and how you like to please yourself primarily?

Michael

 

Rule One?  - "It's my or (in this case) your  **********  railway!"    (Insert your own choice of adjective)