On30 - can it really be that bad?

[chaz]

Sorry Chaz, I was being facetious. He doesn't sound like someone who'd have too many friends with that sort of attitude. From looking at your photos, you're doing some very nice work - I'm sure I'm not the only one here who'd like to see how your layout progresses. Don't listen to the knockers! 

 

I have thought about the attitude that was taken.Of course it is quite legitimate to prefer On3 (or On2) to Bachmann's version of On30, it is more accurate in many respects. And there is nothing wrong with expressing that view BUT what offended me was the refusal to admit any merit in taking the easier, less expensive route to make a layout.

 

Could it be, that having opted for the harder way, some people are jealous of those of us who have "cheated"? By making that choice they have it much easier and that is resented. Of course adopting either standard is no guarantee of a successful, convincing model - they are both going to require some thought and care.

 

One poster above asks why, if I am going to hand-lay track and scratchbuild buildings, am I going to use Bachmann equipment (the implication being that I am therefore going to spoil the result). The answer is that I don't have the time to do it all. If I were to opt for On3 I don't think I would have the time for those aspects I want to concentrate on, I certainly don't have the space for what I plan in On3 and the rolling stock would be very much more expensive.

 

The hobby is big enough for both approaches. I can admire a convincing layout built to either standard, but neither is a guarantee of success. Just because the track gauge, the locos and stock are accurate doesn't mean that the layout is inevitably better.

 

Every model railway ever made embodies compromises - that's inevitable and must be accepted - but we all adopt our own set of rules - and Rule One always applies. What I would hope for is a sense of proportion - remember that a lot of people who don't share our fascination will categorise what we all do as playing with toy trains. So let's be tolerant of different approaches and in public at least refrain from disapproval and denigration.

 

Chaz

[Barry O]

Chaz

 

having seen the work you already have done I am beginning to think that you have no "open" mind on the subject and that you are right and everyone who models in On3 is wrong... or am I missing something here?

 

If you place a San Juan Box Car against the side of a Bachmann on30 box car you will notice the difference in size.  Bachmann went On30 to make use of existing 00/ho track formations. As I said earlier it is your train set and you can build it in whatever scale size etc. 

[PaulRhB]

Chaz, as you say any approach is valid. Each of us has our own strengths and constraints, financial, time and space so at the end of the day as long as we enjoy it then there's a high chance others will too some avoid it because it's foreign!

Life's too short and we all have different interests. I planned a couple of On30 layouts where we were going to hand lay track before I found the micro engineering stuff through EDM, spiking track is a necessary evil at times but I'll avoid it if at all possible.

 

These were designed as exhibition layouts so are a bit busy.

 

This unfinished one could be split in two as the logging layout is self contained.

 

Neither got built as the BLI and MMI locos diverted me back to DRGW dreams, I even considered scaling down to HOn3 but the 1/48th models just have so much presence.

[Happy Hippo]

Chaz,

 

I have a simple policy when it comes to model railways.  We should model to the best of our abilities and to our chosen scale and gauge, whilst allowing others to do exactly the same without fear of recrimination or ridicule.

 

So I'm sure the 0n3 exponent has a magnificent scale model of all of the RGS, and very nice it looks too.

 

Nothing wrong with either 0n3 or 0n30.

 

All you seem to have is the 4mm 00/EM/P4 debate at a larger scale.

 

To my uneducated eye, the advantage of 0n30 allows you to run 0n2 stuff at a wider gauge and 0n3 stuff squeezed in a bit.  Or if you really want to, just mix 'em together.

 

I'd certainly use it (0n30) for Maine 2 foot stuff just to have fun; Perhaps almost 'plonk and play' as opposed to laboriously hand spiking 14mm gauge track and re-wheeling everything.

 

Regards

 

Richard

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear Barry,

 

...having seen the work you already have done I am beginning to think that you have no "open" mind on the subject

 

and that you are right and everyone who models in On3 is wrong...

 

or am I missing something here?

 

 

You don't really want me to answer that, do you?

 

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear Richard,

 

Um, but what of the modeller who consciously and purposefully chooses On30 to model an actual 30" NG railway/road?
 

The fact that few-if-any "fellow NG modellers" in similar debates for the last decade or so fail to even contemplate this as a possibility is just another reason why I find myself shaking my head and wondering "What NG fellowship?"

 

Enjoy Model Railroading, in whatever form you practise it,

Aiming to try and stay positive about a hobby which has been a struggle to enjoy for some time now...

Prof Klyzlr

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear Modellers,

 

Another example of On30 pre-Bachmann, C/O the late NG&SLG author Gordon North

 

http://denverandwestern.wix.com/on30#!about/aboutPage

 

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

[Happy Hippo]

Dear Richard,

 

Um, but what of the modeller who consciously and purposefully chooses On30 to model an actual 30" NG railway/road?

 

 

Prof,

 

Since I believed the OP was talking 'American 3 footers', and the apparent stigma attached to 0n30  by the 0n3 super elite,I ignored any reference to 30" lines so as not to confuse the issue.

 

But since you mention it, you are still compromising if you are using 16.5mm gauge to model true 0n30. 

 

In 7mm modelling, a 30" line works out at 18.5mm gauge.

 

In American '0', at 1/4" to the foot, a 30" line would run on 5/8" gauge (15.875mm qauge)..........................So whichever scale you adhere to, the 16.5mm  gauge chosen by 0n30 modellers in both UK and the USA is incorrect for a 2' 6" gauge line.

 

Regards

 

Richard

 

 

 

.

[chaz]

Chaz

 

having seen the work you already have done I am beginning to think that you have no "open" mind on the subject and that you are right and everyone who models in On3 is wrong... or am I missing something here?

 

 

"or am I missing something here?"   Yes, you are misrepresenting what I have said and ascribing to me a view that I don't hold.

 

If you are saying that I appear to have committed myself to On30 - you are quite right, and I have never suggested to the contrary - but it's a long way from there to me saying that "everyone who models in On3 is wrong". I have never said anything like that and I don't believe that - indeed I think you will see if you read my posts that I have said that there is, and should be, room for both approaches. What I am arguing for is tolerance.

 

"If you place a San Juan Box Car against the side of a Bachmann on30 box car you will notice the difference in size."   Yes, you are right, and I have conceded that the Bachmann equipment is inaacurate in various ways - that doesn't alter my approach, it just means that I can't run the Bachmann kit with the San Juan - something I have no intention of doing.

 

Now I have already said that if someone wishes to model in On3 and gets a convincing railroad I think that's admirable - I also think that it's possible to do the same in On30 - providing the equipment is compatible and consistent. If they do the latter I don't think their efforts should be denigrated or dismissed. I don't model in HO and probably never will but that doesn't mean that I can't admire a good model in that scale.

 

Chaz

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear Richard,

 

Personally, I've yet to meet anyone viewing a model from "typical viewing distances" with adequately calibrated-eyeballs to discern an approx 0.6mm gauge discrepancy (16.5mm VS 1/4" scale 30" gauge) by-sight and out-of-context.... (IE without both gauges laid end-to-end right in front of the viewer).

 

FWIW, that 0.6mm is within the gauge +/- tolerance for NMRA RP25...
(I just put a caliper to my HO NMRA standards gauge... ;-) ).

 

...oh, and someone had better alert the Puffing Billy 1/4" scale modellers that 16.5mm isn't accurate-enough....
(EDM Paul, you looking to produce that proposed PBR "On30" G42 garratt to 15.87mm gauge? No?...)

 

Happy Modelling,
Aiming to actually build something, not let my head scream "but it'll never be dead-accurate, so I simply won't bother",
Prof Klyzlr

[ngtrains.com]

(EDM Paul, you looking to produce that proposed PBR "On30" G42 garratt to 15.87mm gauge? No?...)

 

Yes, if you want. The wheels just press on to the axles so you can shove them to where you want them. Already had enquiries for the G in the UK & US interpretations of 2ft gauge basically making those versions finescale but wrong.

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear RMWebbers,

 

... Already had enquiries for the G in the UK & US interpretations of 2ft gauge basically making those versions finescale but wrong.

 

I hope I'm not out-of-line being highly-amused at the irony here, although I would seriously consider betting that nary an On30 modeller will/would take umberage with a On2/O14 modeller obtaining/running such a "wrong" model...
(I do wonder about the headroom clearance for 7mm crewmembers in a 1/4" G cab though...)

 

Can't wait to see the G, as with the recently announced nA going-live, it's a dynamite-time for PBR modellers...

 

Happy Modelling,|
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

[dibber25]

Take no notice of the gauge obsessives. I've seen some beautiful work done with and around Bachmann's On30 models. I have some White Pass equipment that's just resprayed Bachmann and Broadway On30. It looks great and it means I can use Peco track. Can't think of anything that would put me off the hobby more than having to make my own track - and re-gauge models!

CHRIS LEIGH

[trisonic]

Oh, Lord. Chaz just do it in On30. It'll be a pleasure to read about on here (we don't even mind if it is based on a South American prototype).

I've enjoyed your other work on RMWeb tremendously.

 

Best, Pete.

[highpeak]

I don't remember any real controversy when Dave Frary and Bob Hayden exploited N scale running gear to model Maine 2 footers. Of course, there was no internet back then, but the letters columns of RMC weren't filled with agonising over the discrepancy and demands that they lose 2mm off the gauge.

I dug out the October 2008 issue of MR where Bob Hayden's Carabasset and Dead River was a featured landmark layout. I have to say it didn't convince me, but that had nothing to do with the track gauge at all. It was more a case of Wiscasset-meets-Sellios that spoiled the show, which suggests that getting hung up on this On3/On2/On30 business is rather missing the point.

[dave_long]

Like that, Dave.  What are the baseboard dimensions and the radius of the curves?

 

Hi RRBill

Thanks

Its built on a piece of spaceboard insulation foam, so its set at 1220mm x 600mm. The track is down in the region of 7"-9" it was designed around 8.5" but fitting and bending down that tight is really hard to keep it as accurate as the plan, especially considering the foam.

[railroadbill]

Hi RRBill

Thanks

Its built on a piece of spaceboard insulation foam, so its set at 1220mm x 600mm. The track is down in the region of 7"-9" it was designed around 8.5" but fitting and bending down that tight is really hard to keep it as accurate as the plan, especially considering the foam.

Hi Dave,

 

Thanks for that, spaceboard insulation foam sounds like it should make a light board.  Thinking of trying a small ng layout  (not necessarily On30 but a scale using 16.5 mm gauge track) which would need to be portable ( due to loft being full of 00 layout).  So being able to use curves down to 7" - 9"  with short locos would be just the job.  Giving me some ideas so thanks for sharing your layout info.

 

Bill

[chaz]

Oh, Lord. Chaz just do it in On30. It'll be a pleasure to read about on here (we don't even mind if it is based on a South American prototype).

I've enjoyed your other work on RMWeb tremendously.

 

Best, Pete.

 

As is so often the case there has been a bit more heat than light in this topic. I will be building a layout in On30, as was always my intention. Thanks for the encouraging comment Pete. Having gauged (!) the feelings of other contributors I feel it's time for me at least to draw a line under this topic, so I will not be posting anymore here.

[dave_long]

Just searched an old thread about Troels Kirks layout and got shot down for saying how good it was that he used plain old HO track on his layout. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/71445-troels-kirk-cover-star/&do=findComment&comment=1035585

 

I used peco code 100 as it stands up well to being curved very tightly. I may hand lay in the future but spiking is not something I plan on doing, either solder or ME. 

 

If I can build a layout to half the standard Troels has/does in any scale or gauge then I'll be extremely happy!

 

One question though. Are the San Juan and Bachmann meant to be the same prototype. As if not then you cant compare the two. Its the thing with regards NG, look at the Welsh highland and the ffestiniog same track gauge but quite different size rolling stock gauge. Swings and roundabouts.

[dullsteamer]

...I dug out the October 2008 issue of MR where Bob Hayden's Carabasset and Dead River was a featured landmark layout. I have to say it didn't convince me, but that had nothing to do with the track gauge at all. It was more a case of Wiscasset-meets-Sellios that spoiled the show...

 

LOL! That's the most apt decription of the C&DR I've ever seen - pure gold! 

[dullsteamer]

As is so often the case there has been a bit more heat than light in this topic. I will be building a layout in On30, as was always my intention. Thanks for the encouraging comment Pete. Having gauged (!) the feelings of other contributors I feel it's time for me at least to draw a line under this topic, so I will not be posting anymore here.

 

Fair enough Chaz, but I hope you'll post progress reports on your layout?

[alastairq]

 

One question though. Are the San Juan and Bachmann meant to be the same prototype. As if not then you cant compare the two. Its the thing with regards NG, look at the Welsh highland and the ffestiniog same track gauge but quite different size rolling stock gauge. Swings and roundabouts.

 

 

 

Absolutely correct...neither make can be compared to the other, as they represent very different prototypes. The issue is, if modelling 'signature' trains, then mixing the makes might present a visual issue.

 

Where Bachmann have a problem is, where they have mixed prototypes within their own range.

 

I refer specifically to the Forneys, and the likes of the marvellous 2-6-0? The former is based upon a 2-foot gauge prototype..the latter,a 3-footer..or so.  Thus, the 2-6-0 is a 'large' engine for a small gauge....and the Forney presents issues if trying to 'narrow' its gauge to a correct 2-foot?

 

In fact, the 2-6-0 can be altered to 'standard' gauge [32mm], to represent a small std. gauge rod logging loco, with good effect. A trip through past decades of NG&SL Gazette, will elicit prototypes for such a change...especially the deep South [cypress??] logging lines?

 

Stock-wise, the coaches are good, and are wide enough to suit the gauge [but may have issues if representing a 3 foot prototype?]...although, personally, I think they look better if the platforms are extended a bit widthways [or rather, lengthways....front-to-back, not side-to-side]....with the roof extended to suit.

 

The ventilated boxcars are a good representation of the type, used on the smaller, or less well known US narrow gauge lines...I like the moveable end doors. [ventilation]

 

For me, the gauge...or distance apart of the rails, is irrelevant.

 

It is the scale [1/4 inch, or 1:48] which is more important....keeping that  to a consistency..and being able to use similar scaled ranges of ancillary stuff....rather than, who manufactured the basis for the stock?

[Loconuts]

Hi

 

I am a new user and have been modelling On30 for over 10 years and have read several false comments.  First of all Bachmann models are based on prototypes and are fairly accurate, the 25 ton shay was produced as a standard design, the 2-8-0 is based on a Baldwin export model and the Colorado & Southern Mogul was one of two which ran on that line.

I have seen a model of C&S 22 which was breathed on adding the missing parts that Bachmann missed and replacement of plastic parts with PSC castings and it equalled a PFM brass model of the same prototype.

Rolling stock is another thing but was based on early short stock and as they are a commercial manufacturer had certain constraints to work to.  All these shortcomings can be addressed by lowering the freight cars down on the trucks for that hunkered down look, coaches stretched or made into other versions.  Also fitting the stock with the KD Narrow Gauge knuckle coupling mounted at the On3 height.

Bachmann did not start the On30 scene, it is very popular in the US and has been going since the 1960's where modellers have mated HO mechs to scratch built bodies. Case in point that MMI produced 5000 models of each of the prototypes, 3000 were On30 and the remainder On3.

Don't use Peco track, it looks wrong and the standards it is made for is universal which means finescale will not function well.  Peco developed this track in the 1970's for the British scene which were using the old Hornby wheel standard.  It is not correct for the British narrow gauge scene now.  Use the Micro Engineering track with code 83 rail or smaller, the under gauge is not so noticeable with the smaller rail.

True MMI locos are bigger than your average Bachmann product but they will run ok through 3 foot curves.  I have here 2 x On3 models which I have re-gauged to On30 and have flanges on all drivers and they will run round 30 inch curves.  They will not run through Peco points reliably, but that is due to the slack in the frogs of the points.

My advise is book yourself a years subscription of the Narrow Gauge and Slim Line Gazette and join the Slim Gauge Circle here in the UK.

By the way I came across two pictures on the web of a Mason Bogie produced from Bachmann parts and it looked good, what parts I cannot tell you as there was no script with the pictures.

Just remember it is your layout and you can run what you like and join up with some On30 discussion groups on the other side of the pond, they are very friendly and helpful.

[dave1905]

Dave Long:

 

Vey nice, suggest you change the location to EAST Texas.  It has trees.  West Texas trees are either scrubby mesquite or non-existent.  If you like rocks and desert go to West Texas.  East Texas is called the "piney woods" and has lots of logging in it.   

[dave_long]

Dave

Mostly West Texas is as you say, however there are plenty of pine trees in west Texas if you look in the right places. Google west Texas pine trees. Plenty of penderosa's.

 

 

If anyone is interested my layout is forsale in rmweb classifieds.