On30 - can it really be that bad?

[chaz]

I had a short conversation with somebody at the Warley Exhibition just passed (no names - no packdrill) about the relative merits of On3 and On30. he was adamant that On3 was the true way (my words not his) and that the Bachmann On30 range are toys that bear no resemblance to a real railway.

 

Now it's my intention to build an On30 layout. My reasons?

• I want something that can be got running fairly quickly and without too much expense. I could probably afford some On3 stock but I have plenty of other things I want to do with my money.
• Whatever else the Bachmann range is it certainly runs well.
• I want to spend my time on the scenery and track, not on kit-building stock - I've been there, done that, with my 7mm Dock Green layout.
• I actually do like the Bachmann range - it badly needs weathering to tone down its in-your-face colours - and it will get it.

It seems to me that my approach, although not strictly accurate either in gauge or stock outline, is perfectly valid and could produce a nice model with potential for all sorts of features.

 

I would welcome any comments, either pro or anti.

 

Chaz

 

 

 

 

[Barry O]

Chaz

 

its your layout... but once you see On3 stock you realise that the Bachman stuff is not right. Its up to you - if you want a quick layout then On30 is probably the way to go - if you want realism its up to kit building and some loco modification.

 

 

Barry O

[Arthur]

I can't comment on how close to prototype the Bachmann On30 range is but the models look good, run well and, as you say, with a bit of weathering, really can look the part. I've a couple of their locos for a 'one day' project. I've seen some very atmospheric and interesting layouts built around the Bachmann range. From your 'reasons' list I'd suggest they fit the bill perfectly.

 

Sure, if you were embarking on a project to model a specific prototype line perhaps you would need to take a different approach. Probably an approach which would involve more research, more time, more cost and require more kit and scratch building. An approach very different to the one which inspired you in the first place.

 

Edit; pretty much what Barry said!!' crossed posts.

[chaz]

Chaz

 

its your layout... but once you see On3 stock you realise that the Bachman stuff is not right. Its up to you - if you want a quick layout then On30 is probably the way to go - if you want realism its up to kit building and some loco modification.

 

 

Barry O

 

Thanks Barry. I have only seen one On3 layout and although the rolling stock did look very good, most convincing and (presumably) accurate, I was less impressed with the overall scene. I want to spend my time making a convincing landscape with buildings and bridges. My efforts with the rolling stock will be limited to relettering, weathering and, maybe, a few conversions.

 

there have been a few On30 layouts published in mags or annuals that have hit the spot for me - although I would be the first to conceed that the stock running on them is inaccurate.

 

Chaz

[chaz]

I can't comment on how close to prototype the Bachmann On30 range is but the models look good, run well and, as you say, with a bit of weathering, really can look the part. I've a couple of their locos for a 'one day' project. I've seen some very atmospheric and interesting layouts built around the Bachmann range. From your 'reasons' list I'd suggest they fit the bill perfectly.

 

Sure, if you were embarking on a project to model a specific prototype line perhaps you would need to take a different approach. Probably an approach which would involve more research, more time, more cost and require more kit and scratch building. An approach very different to the one which inspired you in the first place.

 

Thanks - I think we are on the same wavelength Arthur. I am about to start my "one day" project - I too have some stock which just needs painting to be ready to go.

 

I do think the hobby ought to be big enough to accommodate both approaches.

 

Chaz

[Barry O]

Chaz

 

next thing you know you will want to build On3 or On2 like Bob Harper - he has used the Bachmann coaches as a basis for cut and shut lengthening to make them more appropriate and has also made use of some S scale rtr wagons from the USA....  once you get into US Narrow gauge it can be compulsive....

 

hope the layout comes together well.

Barry O

[Oldddudders]

I had a short conversation with somebody at the Warley Exhibition just passed (no names - no packdrill) about the relative merits of On3 and On30. he was adamant that On3 was the true way (my words not his) and that the Bachmann On30 range are toys that bear no resemblance to a real railway.

 

Now it's my intention to build an On30 layout. My reasons?

• I want something that can be got running fairly quickly and without too much expense. I could probably afford some On3 stock but I have plenty of other things I want to do with my money.
• Whatever else the Bachmann range is it certainly runs well.
• I want to spend my time on the scenery and track, not on kit-building stock - I've been there, done that, with my 7mm Dock Green layout.
• I actually do like the Bachmann range - it badly needs weathering to tone down its in-your-face colours - and it will get it.

It seems to me that my approach, although not strictly accurate either in gauge or stock outline, is perfectly valid and could produce a nice model with potential for all sorts of features.

 

I would welcome any comments, either pro or anti.

 

Chaz

Leaving aside the issue of individual models for a moment, the basic problem with On30 is the gauge - effectively 2'6", which falls nicely between the 2' gauge common in Maine, and the 3' in Colorado and elsewhere. The gauge is thus another OO, in effect. That said, I like the chunkiness and reliability of the Bachmann models, and continue to buy them, especially on US ebay, where bargains are to be had. A sound-equipped 4-6-0 cost me £103, factory sealed, albeit plus expensive postage. Paradoxically, I am also building kits for structures, where the kit is a pretty exact replica, and will thus be much more accurate than the trains which pass.

[chaz]

Chaz

 

next thing you know you will want to build On3 or On2 like Bob Harper - he has used the Bachmann coaches as a basis for cut and shut lengthening to make them more appropriate and has also made use of some S scale rtr wagons from the USA....  once you get into US Narrow gauge it can be compulsive....

 

hope the layout comes together well.

Barry O

 

Thanks Barry. Hmmm. I think that I am already committed to On30 - as I have probably bought enough stock to operate the railroad I intend to invent. Once I start laying track (I intend to spike code 83 to wooden ties) that will fix things.

 

Chaz

[Unknown Warrior]

Bachmann 0n30 is an excellent starting point for getting into American Narrow Gauge. Start there and see where it takes you. At least you can get something up and running fairly quickly and start enjoying it, which is after all what the hobby is supposed to be about!

[chaz]

Leaving aside the issue of individual models for a moment, the basic problem with On30 is the gauge - effectively 2'6", which falls nicely between the 2' gauge common in Maine, and the 3' in Colorado and elsewhere. The gauge is thus another OO, in effect. That said, I like the chunkiness and reliability of the Bachmann models, and continue to buy them, especially on US ebay, where bargains are to be had. A sound-equipped 4-6-0 cost me £103, factory sealed, albeit plus expensive postage. Paradoxically, I am also building kits for structures, where the kit is a pretty exact replica, and will thus be much more accurate than the trains which pass.

 

Thanks for those thoughts Ian. Interesting that you should mention the gauge inaccuracy. I was looking at a layout at the NEC with a friend of mine and it was done very nicely. He's an EM modeller so I turned to him and said "Is that OO or EM, I can see it's not P4?" - and his reply? - "Dunno, can't tell." I think we can stop worrying over much about gauge - if you want to be accurate, fine, go ahead, but don't pretend it's of the first importance. I too "like the chunkiness and reliability of the Bachmann models".

 

Chaz

[chaz]

Bachmann 0n30 is an excellent starting point for getting into American Narrow Gauge. Start there and see where it takes you. At least you can get something up and running fairly quickly and start enjoying it, which is after all what the hobby is supposed to be about!

 

Quite so, UW. The nice thing about the Bachmann range is that the stuff is nicely detailed, although I am happy to admit that it is a long way from being accurate.

[dave_long]

Go On30, it really can be so much fun and made to look stunning. For me this is the ultimate: http://coastline.no13.se/#home Troels has not updated that in a while but it is updated on railroad line forum, which has a thriving On30 forum. --> http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36954 over 6 volumes of his work.

 

Go for it I did. My British stuff is P4 yet On3 has never interested me in the slightest. I have a small roundy sawmill layout in On30 with a handful of scratchbuilt wagons and a couple of DCC porters. Although my next layout will be Maine 2 footers, but still on On30 as I'm definitely not up for On2. 

 

Bachmanns range is basically a hotchpotch of stock thats a) still available to measure and B) fairly prototypically popular, plus a few other things.

 

You'll love it once you start! 

 

 

edit: The smiley should actually be 'b )' 

[chaz]

Go On30, it really can be so much fun and made to look stunning. For me this is the ultimate: http://coastline.no13.se/#home Troels has not updated that in a while but it is updated on railroad line forum, which has a thriving On30 forum. --> http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36954 over 6 volumes of his work.

 

Go for it I did. My British stuff is P4 yet On3 has never interested me in the slightest. I have a small roundy sawmill layout in On30 with a handful of scratchbuilt wagons and a couple of DCC porters. Although my next layout will be Maine 2 footers, but still on On30 as I'm definitely not up for On2. 

 

Bachmanns range is basically a hotchpotch of stock thats a) still available to measure and B) fairly prototypically popular, plus a few other things.

 

You'll love it once you start! 

 

 

edit: The smiley should actually be 'b )' 

 

Couldn't agree more with you, Dave. Troels layout does make the case for On30 for me, a superb model that I have sought out both on the net and in mags and annuals. My British layout is FS 7mm and prototypes are selected to fit a North London yard on the ex-GNR system. It's quite a relief to be able to step away from the research needed and kit building that On3 would require and find the Bachmann stuff off the shelf.

 

Chaz

[Mike Bellamy]

I have to declare an interest here as I help Paul Martin at shows. Anyone thinking about American Narrow Gauge should look at his EDM Models web site

http://www.ngtrains.com/

 

Other have already explained the Bachmann compromise between On3 and On2 - in fact they almost 'invented' On30 as their first narrow gauge offerings were the 2-6-0 and coaches for the Christmas market - Hawthorne Village and Thomas Kincade are two I recall - designed to just be a circle of HO track running around the Christmas Tree with pottery buildings. This very soon developed into the comprehensive range that's now available. Like a lot of Bachmann stuff these days, it's built in batches and not always available but the range is also being upgraded to now include DCC and sound if required.

 

Code 83 track and points are available from Micro Engineering and Paul also stocks rolling stock from AMS and San Juan (available in On3 and On30) - it's when you compare these more accurate models with Bachmann that you see that the scale models tend to be bigger.

 

Hope that helps

 

Mike

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear Modellers,

 

I'm sorry, but as a long-time NGer, I'm hearing the same tripe yet again... I thought RMWebbers were a bit more broadminded to the railways/roads of the world...

(Prof takes a breath, calms down, and thinks logically)

 

1 - Yes, there were 30" gauge operations worldwide, even in the parochial USA ( http://www.pearcedale-conservation-park.com.au/c&b/SZ.html#usa , http://on30center.com/on30/library/protlink.html )  so this "2' or 3' but nothing in between" furphy has to stop.
(Know that you want to model Colorado? Fine, go with On3, and watch your bank balance disappear.
Know that you want to model Maine 2'ers? Cool, On2 is an option, if you can find the equipment and are willing to tune finicky brass locos that need the same curve radii as a SG O scale loco, prototypically-engineered Forneys don't turn tight! 

 

However, if you are not wedded to either CO or MA NG, and want to model almost any other narrow gauge operation in the USA,
Then On30 is a certainly a valid, and entirely proto-plausible option...)

 

2 - While not all of the B'mann On30 equipment is proto-based, much of it is. J&S passenger cars, OR&W freight cars, Baldwin and Porter locos, Davenport and the new Whitcomb diesels, Alco Mallets, and of course the Climax which is a dead ringer for Tyers Valley 25t 30" gauge SN1694 and Longworths SN1375.

 

3 - It needs to be stated clearly, On30 does not (necessarily/inherrently) = Bachmann!
Said another way, hands up anyone who remembers/recognizes On30 modelling "Before Bachmann"? Anyone?
http://members.optushome.com.au/jdennis/vulcan/frameset.html

http://on30center.com/on30/library/ontn/on30news.html

 

There are myriad other providers of On30 equipment and kits, some of which are very accurate representations of various proto NG equipment.

 

Admitedly, down here in Oz, we still have a steam-powered 30" gauge railway we can refer to, to remind us that " 1/4" scale NG modelling" does not exclusively = Colorado or Maine,

http://www.puffingbilly.com.au/

 

but as far as "Is On30 really that bad?",

I wold respectfully suggest removing the blinkers, and having a good look around...

 

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

 

PS mandatory modelling content

No B'mann stuff runs on this layout without at least a dose of weathering, and all such equipment shown has been kitbashed into quite-accurate representations of various Aussie Logging equipment.

[5050]

Have a look at 'Eagle Rock' in the current Continental Modeller.  This was made with hand built wood sleepered spiked track, scratchbuilt buildings, weathered and detailed Bachmann stock and scratch built stock using Bachmann chassis, trucks etc.  A cracking example of compromise in a situation where different track gauges of prototype exist.  Scenically I don't think it can have many rivals - but that has no impact on the track gauge of course.

 

Now, we don't want another OO/EM/P4 style gauge war do we

[PatB]

A lot of early (and even some more recent) 009 stuff wasn't/isn't terribly accurate to any given prototype and yet many modellers have managed to produce gorgeous, atmospheric layouts using it. I see no reason why the same can't apply to Bachmann 0n30 gear.

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear 5050,

 

Have a look at 'Eagle Rock' in the current Railway Modeller.  This was made with hand built wood sleepered spiked track, scratchbuilt buildings, weathered and detailed Bachmann stock and scratch built stock using Bachmann chassis, trucks etc.  A cracking example of compromise in a situation where different track gauges of prototype exist.  Scenically I don't think it can have many rivals - but that has no impact on the track gauge of course.

 

Now, we don't want another OO/EM/P4 style gauge war do we

 

No, agreed, we don't want flame wars here on what is one of the more friendly Model RR forums going round...

 

However, it would be nice to see some educated and informed discourse about proto 30" NG equipment and operations,
model offerings, and On30 as a scale outside/beyond/prior to this amazingly narrow-sighted "On30 = Bachmann" mindset which appears soo prevalent worldwide...
(as already noted, On30 was a going-concern long before B'mann got behind it in the late 90s...)

 

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

[dave_long]

I love the Baccy Forneys, the Heisler is a nice model too. Yes there have been well documented issues with split gears but Baccy have finally remedied this and will send out replacements.

 

Backwoods do some stunning add ons and detailing and full kits if your brave enough.

 

Prof,I do love your 9 mile layout and agree whole heartedly with your comments.

 

Yes Bachmann models do need weathering, and porters really could do with stay alive decoders if you run dcc or you spend ages cleaning wheels (pick up issues aside).

Paul at NGtrains does an outstanding job and keeps a very healthy stock of supplies and his newsletters are a good read! 

[5050]

Dear 5050,

 

 

No, agreed, we don't want flame wars here on what is one of the more friendly Model RR forums going round...

 

 

 

 

Glad someone agrees with me occasionally

 

I've been there, experienced it - and got the scars.

 

Both mentally and physically

[Mike Bellamy]

I must apologise for being one of those who has upset the good Professor - however I did use inverted commas when I said that Bachmann almost 'invented' On30 - this was meant to imply that until they produced their ready to run range, there was more limited commercial support for that particular gauge.

 

Getting back to the original question  Bachmann On30 range are toys that bear no resemblance to a real railway you now have a great deal of positive evidence that this is simply not true !

[alfsboy]

I think 0n30 is huge fun and for the accuracy Tontons  to  rubbish  it says more about them that you .We are supposed to enjoy model trains and you can go down whatever route you want as long as you ENJOY it .

[Stevelewis]

I have  been  a  user  of  Bachmann 0n30  since  its  introduction  about  15 Years

 ago

 

As  I still build  0n30 layouts  (currently  building  one  in  a  shed)  I think it  goes  without  saying  that  I  quite  like  the  products, Ok  some  of them  may  be  a little dubious  as  far  as  scale  and original prototype is  concerned,  but  for  an  all over   effect I think they  are  fine  products.

 

The  running  qualities  are  excellent,  the  locos  are  heavy  as  a lot  of  Metal is  used  in  their  construction,  I must  admit   I have  a (pronounced) leaning  towards  the  Mallets, both  versions of  which perform  impeccably  and  sound  quite  superb.

 

One of  the issues with 0n30 is  that  availabilty, can be  an issue, as  many of the items  are limited  run production.

 

I purchase  most  of  my items  from www.tower-models.com  Dave  & Roger,  Kernow  has a few  items usually  but at  Higher  prices  and  I occasionally  use www.micromark.com in New York  as  they sometimes  list  items  which  have  sold  out in the  UK  ( delivery  takes  around 10 days and  VAT +£8.00 is  charged by the border control agency (or whatever it is  called).

 

A couple  of   reading  suggestions ------ The  0n30  Annual  around  £14.00

 

Up Clear Creek on the  Narrow  Gauge  &  More  Up Clear  Creek on the  Narrow  gauge,

  These 2 volumes  are  reprints from Narrow Gauge & Short Line  Gazette over  several  years by  Harry W Brunk,  not  so much a  How to Build a model railway  theme  but about  the  Colarado & Southern NG Railway, each volume  is  around  300 pages,  and  they  are  quite  expensive  books,  I bought  mine  from  Camden  Miniature  Steam  Services in Frome  Somerset.

[ngtrains.com]

All the above is very interesting and proves that 0n30 is a viable modelling scale and not a toy. As you are just starting out all I would counsel really is to think about what you want to achieve and agree with yourself some standards and stick to them.

 

As a trader selling both 0n3 and 0n30 stuff (but modelling 0n3 myself) there are some regular pit falls to watch out for. These I see repeatedly from customers who didn’t think it through before they started.

 

As other have already said 0n3 is a scale model of 3ft gauge prototypes, not just Colorado, as I have a fleet of west coast geared loco’s, and East Broad Top loco and a couple of Uintah Mallets. 0n3 has its own set of standards obviously applying to track gauge but also to couplers and coupler height. Physical size is less clear as there were some diminutive 3ft gauge loco’s just as there were some huge 2’6” gauge ones.

 

0n30 is, mostly, a model of 2’6” gauge railways but with some commercial diversions like including the 2ft gauge Forney’s and the 3ft gauge 4-6-0 but notably it has adopted the HO coupler and its height as its commercial standard.

 

Where it all goes a bit woolly is when you start mixing the two. San Juan do ready to run models of many of the Colorado narrow gauge wagons and have in recent years compromised by including 0n30 wheelset but the couplers are still 0n3 and the physical size is dead scale so, for example, a San Juan flat car will dwarf one from the Bachmann catalogue. So, decide which coupler standard you intend to use and stick with it. Changing the 0n3 ones to 0n30 isn’t straightforward. Going the other way, fitting 0n3 ones to Bachmann 0n30 cars, is easy on some vehicles (the 2 bay hopper) and nigh on impossible on others.

 

Also before you start decide on the track standards you want to adopt. I am thinking mostly of curve and turnout radius. There was something of an outcry against Bachmann when, having introduced the range with the mogul (happy on 15” curves), the Porters (happy on 6” corners), they released the Forney which unless you are very careful about what its pulling needs 24”. 

 

Just like on the real thing little engines go round tighter curves than big ones.

 

To some extent the second hand market for MMI loco’s has been driven by a general misunderstanding of this fundamental principle.  When MMI released their models of the K27, K28, K36 and K37 with both 0n3 and 0n30 versions lots of 0n30 modellers bought them and slowly they trickle back on to the market as people realise they are big 3ft gauge engines, take up a lot of space and don’t go around corners. MMI did what they could with flangeless centre drivers on the 0n30 versions but it still won’t handle Peco medium radius turnouts reliably and laughs at the NG Wye

 

A K36 whilst only 3 foot gauge is physically about the same size as a standard gauge 9F. Doesn’t matter what the track gauge is it’s going to take up a lot of space!

It’s not just in the models though that the weight and size is underestimated. Seems there is a prototype for everything.

 

 

Most of all decide what you want to achieve and how it will look and have fun. If your aim is a realistic model, just like in every other scale, choose elements that look right together

[chaz]

I have to declare an interest here as I help Paul Martin at shows. Anyone thinking about American Narrow Gauge should look at his EDM Models web site

http://www.ngtrains.com/

 

Other have already explained the Bachmann compromise between On3 and On2 - in fact they almost 'invented' On30 as their first narrow gauge offerings were the 2-6-0 and coaches for the Christmas market - Hawthorne Village and Thomas Kincade are two I recall - designed to just be a circle of HO track running around the Christmas Tree with pottery buildings. This very soon developed into the comprehensive range that's now available. Like a lot of Bachmann stuff these days, it's built in batches and not always available but the range is also being upgraded to now include DCC and sound if required.

 

Code 83 track and points are available from Micro Engineering and Paul also stocks rolling stock from AMS and San Juan (available in On3 and On30) - it's when you compare these more accurate models with Bachmann that you see that the scale models tend to be bigger.

 

Hope that helps

 

Mike

 

Thanks Mike, I am aware of Paul's EDM venture, and have indeed bought a number of items from him - including the excellent On30 annuals.