Brian Kirby Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) In the past, I asked SK about this on several occasions. It was very obvious that there were two main objections - 1 It didn't reduce the cost by much because it required new packaging, instructions etc. 2 It resulted in the hobby being awash with poorly-built examples of Hornby product which the company felt did its reputation no good. CHRIS LEIGH Good points, but designing the packaging, writing the instructions and promoting the kit would be a one-off expense. Some of the kits are bound to be completed incorrectly or badly, that's the name of the game, but it never did any damage to Airfix's reputation for aircraft kits, most will be assembled competently, but that's also why i suggested bodies are supplied in plain plastic colours like black, then CKD and RTR can be distinguished at a glance. Corgi have allowed some of their road vehicle models to be produced in a more basic form for Atlas Editions, with some details omitted, has that damaged Corgi? You could add a few paints and cheap brushes to the CKD kit pack, like they do for basic car and aircraft kits, thus offering the complete self-contained package for the consumer of any age, even to the ones new to the hobby, who haven't even got a train set. Guess what, they'll soon be wanting the train set to go with their initial purchase, so train sets and model railways become more popular again for the beginner. Cheers, Brian. Edited September 11, 2015 by Brian Kirby Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted September 11, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) In the past, I asked SK about this on several occasions. It was very obvious that there were two main objections - 1 It didn't reduce the cost by much because it required new packaging, instructions etc. 2 It resulted in the hobby being awash with poorly-built examples of Hornby product which the company felt did its reputation no good. CHRIS LEIGH They want to have a look at Book Law then. Although in fairness it seems to be an outlier. I'm always bemused by constant tales of how much labour is going up and why models are getting more expensive, yet when somebody comes up with an idea that saves labour we find it really won't save that much........? Which is it then? Edited September 11, 2015 by Legend 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 .....Guess what, they'll soon be wanting the train set to go with their initial purchase, so train sets and model railways become more popular again for the beginner...... There are far more distractions now available to society today, and society itself has a very short attention span, so you cannot assume that the sale of a CKD/PKD pack will automatically lead to a clamour for a train set. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted September 11, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) Whoever suggested selling old moulds to a third party? The big manufacturers could employ moulding firms in the UK, so long as the moulds are compatible. Are Airfix kits moulded in the UK? Didn't Bachmann have a large batch of couplings made in the UK, when there was a sudden shortage a few years back? Alternatively parts could be made in China, be bundled together, then arranged into kits in the UK? You can't assume all old moulds are badly worn, it depends how good a seller the model has been, unless there's a fault in the mould? Cheers, Brian. And the motors, wheels, chassis castings, circuit boards etc etc etc. Hornby no longer have the machinery for any of this, they haven't since they started getting everything made in China. Probably all turned into razor blades as soon as it was ripped out of Margate, maybe it remained derelict until they vacated the site or maybe it went years ago. Their new premises won't have been arranged to accommodate a packing line because their business model has no need for one. They'd have to contract it out here or get it done in China; the logistics are the same, either way. Moving the moulds etc. on to a third party is the only real option if you want the whole thing done over here and Dapol are the only firm currently doing what you want in the UK. Bachmann have never manufactured in the UK, having had it all done in HK since taking over from Palitoy (Mainline). I'm never gonna convince you that CKD is not a saviour for the hobby that everybody is craving for, Brian, and you are never gonna convince me that there's a significant return in it for anybody. Leave it a couple of years and we'll see who's right. Until then, I'm stepping off this particular merry-go-round. Regards, John Edited September 11, 2015 by Dunsignalling 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold toboldlygo Posted September 11, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 11, 2015 I've been saying this ever since Hornby announced that they were doing '023. '021 would have been a much better option, as that is also the only one where there is hard photographic evidence of it carrying the late crest before rebuilding .... my '023 on the other hand .... DSC00025.jpg It's a such shame people don't always go further back into the topic more than a few pages (though to be honest a good majority of the last few pages have nothing to do with the Crosti ) We wouldn't have to keep repeating ourselves. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted September 11, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) They want to have a look at Book Law then. Although in fairness it seems to be an outlier. I'm always bemused by constant tales of how much labour is going up and why models are getting more expensive, yet when somebody comes up with an idea that saves labour we find it really won't save that much........? Which is it then? But it doesn't. It justs shifts the emphasis to less skilled labour. Hornby simply don't make enough stuff overall (let alone just a few niche half-built kits that would probably do their bottom line more harm than good) to finance the cost of a mechanised packing system of the sort you see in the food industry so it would still have to be done by hand. Book Law? Whassat? John Edited September 11, 2015 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyW Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) To get back on topic i.e. Crosti 9F, mine arrived from Hattons last week, better than I expected and runs really well. It may not be super detail like the Brit but at least come winter I can look forwards to enjoying a couple of evenings detailing it myself. There are 3 Crosti 9F's undelined in my Ian Allen Combine 020, 021 and 028, unfortunately I cannot remember where each was seen, you don't think of making notes to use 50+ years later! I do remember that the first Crosti (rebuilt) I saw was going through Leamington Spa, the others may have been at Rugby but cannot recall if it was WCML or the GC across the Birdcage bridge or Market Harborough. I only visited MH a couple of times as it was a fair way to cycle. Edited September 12, 2015 by TonyW Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 So couldn't the rested or retired moulds from an older model be brought to the UK, and used here purely as a supply of kit parts, without the extra labour cost of assembly? BK Dapol's situation is somewhat different from Hornby or Bachmann's. Dapol have the injection moulding and tampo equipment in the UK (Dapol only really started using China when they introduced their N gauge range), the other two do not. There's also the compatibility issue of the tooling - Hornby have had hellish problems within China when moving manufacturer, and I'd bet that Dapol would likely not be able to use their Chinese toolings on their UK machines. Dapol are currently uniquely placed to do this kind of thing in the UK industry, but with a limited selection of items. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDJR7F88 Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Just a bit of fun, though I would do a spot of Photoshop with my sample... 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) I have been running mine with a Bachmann 9F and a 1989 Eveming Star from when I was young. The latter has not been run in a lonnnnnng time but was surprised it went away quite smoothly for an old ringfield loco. Naturally both the Crosti and Bachmann 9F are all round better models in all aspects. However the Crosti shows some parentage in the 1989 loco by having exactly the same pony truck albeit with correct diameter wheels. The good news is the parentage stops there. On the layout, the running qualities of the new crosti are as good as the several year old, run in Bachmann model, ok the Bachmann is a tad quieter but not much in it. Overall speeds are near identical through the range, well the crosti being a tad faster, but not enough to prevent using both as a double header. I can tell you, one of these 9Fs is already a very powerful model on a layout, the double header easily surpasses Heljan's Garret. It really is unstoppable. My crosti is an excellent runner straight out the box, (better than those in videos posted here) so I doubt it will improve with running in. A slight peeve is the possibility of a TTS one. Hope Hornby sell a TTS upgrade pack as I do not need two Crostis. Tender looks to be BR1B on this model (?). Post script edit: dam the adverts here, I just went and brought Kernow's bargain 28XX! Edited September 13, 2015 by JSpencer 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadnought05 Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 So far as I'm aware, all Crosti's were fitted with BR1B tenders. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 I have 3 Crosti's.... You can get a creme...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 ....I'm never gonna convince you that CKD is not a saviour for the hobby that everybody is craving for, Brian, and you are never gonna convince me that there's a significant return in it for anybody..... Railway modellers in Britain, and economic / commercial reality, rarely sing from the same hymn sheet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Railway modellers in Britain, and economic / commercial reality, rarely sing from the same hymn sheet. What real hard facts and previous situations are you basing this theory on? AFAIK a CKD loco, coach or wagon hasn't been tried in recent times, apart from the successful Dapol/Airfix CKD coaches, so where's the proof that it won't be well received? Fortunately we don't all live in North Korea, so instead we can have a healthy exchange of views and come up with new ideas. It is faintly Luddite to suggest that just because we haven't tried it in the past, means that it won't work in the future. ( I thought we were going back to Crosti 9Fs and Dunsignalling had bowed out of this discussion- he's just agreed with Ivan, - obviously still interested in the idea?) Cheers, Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 What real hard facts and previous situations are you basing this theory on? ..... That essential ingredient in railway modelling: fantasy. Look around you. The modern hobby cannot exist without it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 So far as I'm aware, all Crosti's were fitted with BR1B tenders. There were one or two changes in the '60s after being de-Crostied. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold toboldlygo Posted September 14, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 14, 2015 92028 finally breaks cover after a replacement gears were fitted. As per a forum member's request, I'll put up a blog entry on how I did this one in the next few days hopefully. 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 Good points, but designing the packaging, writing the instructions and promoting the kit would be a one-off expense. Some of the kits are bound to be completed incorrectly or badly, that's the name of the game, but it never did any damage to Airfix's reputation for aircraft kits, most will be assembled competently, but that's also why i suggested bodies are supplied in plain plastic colours like black, then CKD and RTR can be distinguished at a glance. Corgi have allowed some of their road vehicle models to be produced in a more basic form for Atlas Editions, with some details omitted, has that damaged Corgi? You could add a few paints and cheap brushes to the CKD kit pack, like they do for basic car and aircraft kits, thus offering the complete self-contained package for the consumer of any age, even to the ones new to the hobby, who haven't even got a train set. Guess what, they'll soon be wanting the train set to go with their initial purchase, so train sets and model railways become more popular again for the beginner. Cheers, Brian. I'm just passing on what I was told. I'm not saying I agree with it but I can see there is a difference between something which is ONLY sold as a kit (Airfix) and something which, once it is assembled, might reasonably be presumed to have been factory assembled and if that assembly is done badly it reflects, however erroneously, on the factory. Also - and probably being more pragmatic about it - a kit would have a lower retail price and less profit for manufacturer and retailer. Maybe, if the product was not being made in China, the economics of CKD would stack up better, as they seem to for coaches moulded in Wales, for instance. CHRIS LEIGH 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted September 15, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 15, 2015 (edited) What real hard facts and previous situations are you basing this theory on? AFAIK a CKD loco, coach or wagon hasn't been tried in recent times, apart from the successful Dapol/Airfix CKD coaches, so where's the proof that it won't be well received? Fortunately we don't all live in North Korea, so instead we can have a healthy exchange of views and come up with new ideas. It is faintly Luddite to suggest that just because we haven't tried it in the past, means that it won't work in the future. ( I thought we were going back to Crosti 9Fs and Dunsignalling had bowed out of this discussion- he's just agreed with Ivan, - obviously still interested in the idea?) Cheers, Brian. Brian, You really shouldn't entice me back in by mentioning me by name.... ......I have never said I wouldn't buy CKD if it became available; as with everything else, my decision would be based solely on whether it resulted in models of something I want. My position on whether it should be done was (and is) that returns from what Hornby could sell it for wouldn't match what they make from selling fully assembled models. If I am correct, any investment would be better targeted in doing more of what they are already doing. That has no bearing on whether I would like them to do it. I think it a little excessive to describe the Dapol CKD coaches as successful. There is a big difference between "success" and reviving serviceable but obsolete assets to obtain a modest extra return for the business. Dapol were able to do this because they still have the capacity and plant to do it in-house. Hornby no longer have either and the economics of paying for production slots in Chinese factories for what would be (at best) a speculative new venture with dubious returns almost certainly don't stack up. Moreover, if Dapol CKD was successful in absolute terms (i.e. profitable enough to match the percentage returns on their new products) they would have added to the range. The fact that they haven't tends to support my position as stated above. Regards John Edited September 15, 2015 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 Surely the bottom line is - it ain't going to happen !! It's not a new idea, and if it had so much merit we would already have it. Despite repeated assertions to the contrary, executives in the model railway business do have a degree of business acumen. CKD is just another "If they produced XYZ they'd sell like hot cakes" wish-cry; in this case in response to inevitably rising world production costs. This debate is purely hypothetical, and will make zero impact on the development of commercial model railway production. Regards, John Isherwood. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold toboldlygo Posted September 15, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 15, 2015 As promised, blog entry is now up: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/135/entry-16617-how-to-crusty-a-crosti-a-toboldlygo-guide/ 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paftrain Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 I thought this thread was supposed to be about Crostis, not CKDs or the Chinese economy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 Re: my comment earlier in the thread concerning my failed Crosti. I had emailed Hornby; after a delay in responding, they now state that a supply of spares is on route to the UK, and if I remind them at the end of the month, they will post out to me a set of replacement gears. Patience is a virtue. Success again with Hornby, thanks. Stewart 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Quite right Paftrain, let's get back to Crostis, the CKD chat is just going round and round in circles, but i'm puzzled how the Dapol/Airfix CKD coaches can't be regarded as successful? They certainly sell consistently well, i've bought loads over the years for conversions and the main suppliers seem to be always re-stocking? Here's that pizza-cutter front wheel being tackled, i always try and work first with what's provided, rather than chucking away and replacing (how very Green). Come to think of it, apart from some scrap bits of plastic, offcuts of wire, some old paint and remainder transfers, this conversion has cost "nuffin", even the old screw coupling was a Jackson (crimped with pliers) dug out from the spares box. First two pics show one wheel flange reduced, the other awaiting turning in the Unimat, not sure which pic is clearer, so here's both. Last pic shows the "improved" wheels back in the bogie. Cheers, Brian. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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