Bluebell Railway news

[Tony Teague]

Truth is that, especially at present, it is unlikely any other heritage line could do any better with either Dukedog or the Radial, however, I am with Grizz that the Dukedog might be higher up somebody else's priority list than 'ours' and if they were prepared to tackle it I can't see it as being against the donors wishes to 'lend' it to another railway on a repair and operate for x years basis - if anyone wants, or is able to take it on.

As to liveries, whilst I support getting as close to the prototype as possible, most locos displayed several liveries during their lifetimes and ringing the changes produces more interest from the punters and photographers alike - but in the end it will be the owners who decide, and they are often a different body to the hosting railway - e.g. Maunsell Loco Soc, BB Soc, etc etc.

Tony

[rasalmon]

It's not always been Blue.
IIRC the plan had been to run it like this for a year, and then add lines and present it in SR Olive (this shade of green was chosen since it wasn't known exactly what shade of green the SECR used, but by using the same Maunsell olive green, it could be easily re-liveried).  But for some reason (probably because it's a real faff to repaint something that's in service) this never hapenned.  Same with 30541, which was supposed to run in BR livery for a year or two before going into Maunsell SR lettering.
Photo by Lewis Nodes.

[Dunsignalling]

TBH no heritage line can ever be described as "preserved" in the full sense of the word. Even though major elements are present, the number of visitors they have to cater for in order to survive demands significant changes from how things were when they were part of the general rail network. 

 

Using the Bluebell as an example, because it has to function as a "leisure destination" it can only ever be SR/LBSCR themed rather than a comprehensive re-creation. 

 

Also, of course, every heritage railway has its own heritage built up from the day it was founded. The Dukedog and NL tank do represent pivotal links with the Bluebell's beginnings. The solution has been in operation for some years, with visits to other lines that might have been former stamping grounds whilst remaining Bluebell-based.

 

Where I think that falls down is with artifacts like the Radial which are effectively worn out and probaby too fragile for restoration to result in a successful return to the operational fleet. Whilst that might be possible elsewhere, it has already been suggested (correctly imho) that a new build would be cheaper than restoration.

 

Its pre-Bluebell history may well be at the root of that.  The loco was prepared for preservation by BR on the basis of reuniting as much original Adams material as possible from the three survivors in one loco. That meant using the frames of 488/30583 that had been repaired under EKR ownership rather than SR-era replacements from either of the others, and an Adams boiler in preference to a less elderly Drummond example. All perfectly correct had it been going into a museum, but possibly less than ideal when destined for a working railway. Sixty years on, therefore, conservation may have become more appropriate than restoration.

 

Unfortunately, I don't envisage any other railway viewing the Radial differently than its current owners. Any future restoration would need to be a new-build in all but name to produce an engine sufficiently robust to cope with modern demands.

 

John

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[rasalmon]

13 minutes ago, Tony Teague said:

 if they were prepared to tackle it I can't see it as being against the donors wishes to 'lend' it to another railway on a repair and operate for x years basis

Even getting it out on loan to Didcot in exchange for re-tyring its wheels and firebox repairs (1984-89) was almost (but not quite) impossible. So no, the donor's wishes are not to be lightly over-ruled. If we break our agreement, then the real danger is that no one trusts us in the future.  We cannot simply over-ride undertakings previously given.  Anyway, it's supposed to be a high priority for a Bluebell overhaul (or was stated to be a few years ago anyway, once 'Sir A' and 'Stowe' are in service).

But the North London Tank or the USA, I'm sure could be subject to agreements where they went elsewhere for overhauls and returned to run on the Bluebell for alternate years of the 10 years of a certificate.  But then ask yourself which other railway would be in a position to invest their money in overhauling one of our locos?  After all that was the idea with ‘Stamford’ 23 years ago, but it's never actually been overhauled.  Could be possible as part of a Lottery bid.  But most railways would probably prefer to invest that money in their own locos.  The preservation movement is not short of out-of-service locos!

[Grizz]

Too many irreplaceable, unique, and very very precious toys in the toy box but at the same time a high percentage of them are worn out and broken toys. With little, feet on planet earth, hope of the financial backing required to repair or total rebuild in a timely manner as funds, workshop space and the needs of the running fleet can’t be matched. 
 

I think a boring as some might view it, having a Standard 4 Tank almost always in service should be achievable. After all there are three on the railway. If owners choose not to work on their assets for years, yet refuse to allow others to carry out work on them, then charge them rent. The less work the more the rent. Why do we need privately owned locos with little if any chance of running if the owners have no financial incentive to work on them. We have on occasion looked like the railway equivalent of ‘Steptoe’s Yard’....

 

Changing the subject slightly does anyone have any photos of the Brighton Directors Saloon in service on the mainline? I’d love to see what it would have looked like. Now that should be the flagship coach of the railway. Again only my opinion.....which really doesn’t count anyway as what I know about coaches could be written on top of a pin with a hammer.  But I’d prefer that than the GNR saloon. Sunday afternoon tea in the Brighton Directors Saloon hauled by Fenchurch in IEG, SP to HK shuttles in off peak times or as the private party coach on the Pullmans or Wedding Trains or Period Drama Filming. 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Grizz
Sopellni

[St Enodoc]

59 minutes ago, Grizz said:

Personally no. And I should say this only my personal opinion so it really doesn’t matter. 
 

Why pick on Bluebell as ‘Bluebell’ livery. Why not paint Stepney or Adams in Bluebell livery? It is preserving preservation  but it has no democratic input. Or validity. It is what it is. It is a dictatorial edict. 

Yes, it is "preserving preservation", because that aspect of preservation was itself 60 years ago. In my (also personal) opinion the "default" livery for 323 should be Bluebell Blue; for 27 SECR lined green; and for 178 any of the liveries it wore (or even did not wear) before or after preservation (disclosure: I'd rather like to see it in Bowaters green as it was in 1969 when I saw it at Ridham Dock on a school trip).

 

Anyway, we all know where livery debates end up, so that's my final word on this one!

[Oldddudders]

Perhaps it is a measure of just how far the Bluebell has come that this discussion can take place at all. I think the founders would be delighted at reaching EG, and future options on Ardingly etc, and apparently with some financial stability due to sound stewardship. The debate about which dilapidated loco is most deserving, or which colour this or that loco should wear, are only feasible because the railway is just "there", as a dependable backdrop to whatever is decided. 

 

Step back a little, and it is easy to view Bluebell in 2021 as a monumental achievement. 

[Grizz]

3 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Perhaps it is a measure of just how far the Bluebell has come that this discussion can take place at all. I think the founders would be delighted at reaching EG, and future options on Ardingly etc, and apparently with some financial stability due to sound stewardship. The debate about which dilapidated loco is most deserving, or which colour this or that loco should wear, are only feasible because the railway is just "there", as a dependable backdrop to whatever is decided. 

 

Step back a little, and it is easy to view Bluebell in 2021 as a monumental achievement. 

Wise Words...and thank you. Who’d have though that the colour of paint could provide such entertainment....

 

 

 

 

[Grizz]

After Bluebell’s 60th (61st) anniversary celebrations, there are a couple of other significant dates coming up in the not too distant future, that could be worth celebrating. Or at least acknowledging.

 

2025 - 200th Anniversary of the first loco hauled public railway in the UK

2029 - 200th Anniversary of the Rainhill Trials.

2030 - 200th Anniversary of the Worlds first regular railway passenger service.

 

I’m hoping to be around (still breathing) for these dates....

 

Bluebell would do these proud I am sure. We are good at this sort of thing.

 

 

 

[Neal Ball]

3 hours ago, Grizz said:

If this is the case, and like I said I do actually like the loco, then we are actually preserving preservation.

As this is now the case that it will be very publicly acknowledged that this is the case and that there will be documented publicly accessible reasoning as to why particular decisions are being made. However I don’t recall this being the prime directive for the Preservation Society. 

Are you the new Locomotive Director the railway? You seem quite vocal about what should and should not be there....

 

Lets get the thread back on topic and concentrate on news from the railway.

 

Thank you.

[Grizz]

2 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

Are you the new Locomotive Director the railway? You seem quite vocal about what should and should not be there....

 

Lets get the thread back on topic and concentrate on news from the railway.

 

Thank you.

Apologies for any offence caused Neal. To answer you question, Nope. As stated my personal opinion. Now unfollowed .All the best and good luck. Bye.

[Chris116]

2 hours ago, Grizz said:

Apologies for any offence caused Neal. To answer you question, Nope. As stated my personal opinion. Now unfollowed .All the best and good luck. Bye.

That is a great shame as you have supplied a lot of interesting photos and I for one will miss your input.

[Tony Teague]

3 hours ago, Grizz said:

Apologies for any offence caused Neal. To answer you question, Nope. As stated my personal opinion. Now unfollowed .All the best and good luck. Bye.

 

41 minutes ago, Chris116 said:

That is a great shame as you have supplied a lot of interesting photos and I for one will miss your input.

 

Totally agree - Grizz has personally kept this thread buzzing for a while now & I'm not clear what news from the railway we have been missing?

[BlueLightning]

6 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

Are you the new Locomotive Director the railway? You seem quite vocal about what should and should not be there....

 

Lets get the thread back on topic and concentrate on news from the railway.

 

Thank you.

 

Here was me thinking this was a forum (a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged) apparently discussion is not allowed.

 

I suppose you'll be flying over from Costa Blanca almost every day to bring us updates and news on the work happening at the railway as Grizz has done if he's no longer going to post? Or did you miss all that?

[phil-b259]

8 hours ago, Tony Teague said:

Truth is that, especially at present, it is unlikely any other heritage line could do any better with either Dukedog or the Radial, however, I am with Grizz that the Dukedog might be higher up somebody else's priority list than 'ours' and if they were prepared to tackle it I can't see it as being against the donors wishes to 'lend' it to another railway on a repair and operate for x years basis - if anyone wants, or is able to take it on.

 

 

The Dukedog is actually a pretty useful machine for the Bluebell - a mid range power wise but with a tender so can last a busy day without having to come in for coal. Mechanically its also pretty good meaning its next overhaul won't be too hard.

 

Yes it doesn't 'fit' the rest of the Southern collection (a 43xx or Manor would given their use on the Redhill - Reading line under BR) but its still a fine looking machine with a unique selling point as being the only other 'outside framed' loco in preservation other than City of Turo.

 

IIRC its being looked on as the notional replacement for the O1 when that locos ticket expires in 2027, so should enter the workshops in a couple of years if things go to plan.

Edited March 6, 2021 by phil-b259

[Michael Hodgson]

8 hours ago, Grizz said:

Wise Words...and thank you. Who’d have though that the colour of paint could provide such entertainment....

 

 

 

 

Surely Rule 1 applies to the livery?

[St Enodoc]

12 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Anyway, we all know where livery debates end up

It seems that I was right...

[adb968008]

On 06/03/2021 at 03:30, Grizz said:

Well yeah exactly. We are depriving a Western preserved line of the only preserved example. Did it ever run on the Central Division? Or Southern? Personally I actually quite like the loco but would prefer to see it in its home location. Same with the North London Tank. 

9022 was originally built in 1897 (3278) and 1903 (3436 / 3713 City of Chester).

so that makes it 124 years old, according to BR database.

 

The GWR owned it 51 years

BR owned it 14 years

Bluebell railway owns it 59 years

 

so it belongs more in Sussex than anywhere else at this point.

 

I wouldn't say the GWR is deprived of it either... last time I saw it was definitely in Wales...

 

 

The only home that matters in 2020 is a good home, engines can easily move for visits.

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by adb968008

[rasalmon]

On 09/03/2021 at 10:34, adb968008 said:

9022 was originally built in 1897 (3278) and 1903 (3436 / 3713 City of Chester).

so that makes it 124 years old, according to BR database.

Of course Earl of Berkeley is actually No.9017, which was rebuilt in 1938 using frames from "Bulldog" No.3425 (built 1906) and boiler and cab from "Duke" class No.3282 (originally named 'Chepstow Castle' and built in 1899).

However, 2/3 of the frames were actually built at Sheffield Park during the course of its last overhaul!
The tender it now has is No.2331 built in September, 1921

[adb968008]

22 minutes ago, rasalmon said:

Of course Earl of Berkeley is actually No.9017, which was rebuilt in 1938 using frames from "Bulldog" No.3425 (built 1906) and boiler and cab from "Duke" class No.3282 (originally named 'Chepstow Castle' and built in 1899).

However, 2/3 of the frames were actually built at Sheffield Park during the course of its last overhaul!
The tender it now has is No.2331 built in September, 1921

Funny, it took 3 days for anyone to notice that...

 

my brain focussed on my Bachmann model 9022 and missed the real one 9017 !

 

i’m getting old.

[Bomag]

On 06/03/2021 at 12:00, Grizz said:

After Bluebell’s 60th (61st) anniversary celebrations, there are a couple of other significant dates coming up in the not too distant future, that could be worth celebrating. Or at least acknowledging.

 

2025 - 200th Anniversary of the first loco hauled public railway in the UK

2029 - 200th Anniversary of the Rainhill Trials.

2030 - 200th Anniversary of the Worlds first regular railway passenger service.

 

I’m hoping to be around (still breathing) for these dates....

 

Bluebell would do these proud I am sure. We are good at this sort of thing.

 

 

 

 

After Bluebell's 60th anniversary, 3 months after Middleton's 60th we have

 

2022 - 210 anniversary of the first commercially success steam loco.

2023 - 265 anniversary of the worlds oldest railway.

 

[97xx]

Just spotted this thread, and continuing the discussion about liveries, I think there is an opportunity to present an engine in the really well-worn state it would have been at the end of steam.

 

I would have done this to the Adams radial when it was being cosmetically brushed up a while back for show purposes - it seemed a bit daft to make it look pristine whilst completely inoperative.

 

An element of 'preservation' could be to present what steam really looked like throughout a lot of its day, and how better to do it that to a loco out of steam and sat right at the end of the restoration queue? 

 

 

 

[rasalmon]

On 11/03/2021 at 19:45, Bomag said:

 

After Bluebell's 60th anniversary, 3 months after Middleton's 60th we have

 

2022 - 210 anniversary of the first commercially success steam loco.

2023 - 265 anniversary of the worlds oldest railway.

 

With respect, 210 and 265 are hardly significant anniversaries.  Not sure how you get "3 months" from Middleton opening to the public on 20th June 1960 for the university Rag Week to the Bluebell's public opening for a 6-week summer season with its own LRO in place on 7 August, :-) but the significant anniversaries relating to the Bluebell coming up that I can see are:

2022 - Terrier 150 - 'Fenchurch' is the first of the Terriers, and will be returning to steam.  Big gathering being planned at Barrow Hill, but would hope we'd also be celebrating on home turf too.

2023 - Centenary of formation of the Southern Railway, 75th anniversary of formation of British Railways.

2025 - S&D 200 - Shildon - Maybe Fenchurch can again represent the Bluebell as it did in 1975?  (Also 'Stepney' 150)

2026 - Centenary of the Bluebell's first internal combustion locomotive, Howard No. 957.

2027 - 'Baxter' and 'Sharpthorn' both 150

2028 - centenary of U-class 1618

2030 - our North London Railway Tank Locomotive and LBSCR Carriage 661 will both be 150 years old, and Bluebell 70.

2032 - Bluebell Line 150 (anniversary of the L&EGR Opening).

3034 - 150th anniversary of the Ardingly Branch opening.

2035 - Adams Radial Tank 150 years old, and Bluebell 75.

[Bomag]

5 minutes ago, rasalmon said:

With respect, 210 and 265 are hardly significant anniversaries.  Not sure how you get "3 months" from Middleton opening to the public on 20th June 1960 for the university Rag Week to the Bluebell's public opening for a 6-week summer season with its own LRO in place on 7 August, :-) but the significant anniversaries relating to the Bluebell coming up that I can see are:

 

 

Alright Bluebell was 6 weeks after Middleton (June, July, August = 3 months at a shot). Well it was tongue in cheek about the 210 and 265, but being the first and/or oldest does help in having bigger numbers, particularly when you get fed up with being told the Bluebell was the first standard gauge preserved railway. This has tended to be moderated to first preserved mainline or BR line in the last few years. I think the early Bluebell people thought that the Middleton was a lot of academics playing trains; however, when I was in the RCE there were an awful lot of Leeds University engineers who managed to blag their first few years in BR by having learnt the basic on Middleton.       

[rasalmon]

On 23/03/2021 at 21:54, Bomag said:

 

Alright Bluebell was 6 weeks after Middleton (June, July, August = 3 months at a shot). Well it was tongue in cheek about the 210 and 265, but being the first and/or oldest does help in having bigger numbers, particularly when you get fed up with being told the Bluebell was the first standard gauge preserved railway. This has tended to be moderated to first preserved mainline or BR line in the last few years. I think the early Bluebell people thought that the Middleton was a lot of academics playing trains; however, when I was in the RCE there were an awful lot of Leeds University engineers who managed to blag their first few years in BR by having learnt the basic on Middleton.       

Decades ago Bluebell and Middleton came to an agreement that honours were due to both, with Middleton being recognised as the first heritage line to re-open, and Bluebell as the first to reopen a former passenger line.  All that was mentioned on here was "After we've celebrated our 60th (61st) anniversary..."  It would be very strange if Bluebell stole Middelton's thunder, and celebrated Middleton's anniversary, so Bluebell celebrates its own, as KESR will be celebrating its 50th this year (or 60th if you believe Heritage Railway mag!).   Sorry, it just sounds like, 60 years on, you personally have a massive chip on your shoulder over how successful Bluebell has been, when you should be celebrating how successful Middleton has been.

Edited March 27, 2021 by rasalmon