Sheffield Exchange, Toy trains, music and fun!

[Andrew P]

1 hour ago, 81C said:

Buses on a bridge top stuff Monty. 

He knows how to please an audience.

[jazzer]

22 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Still here. So tough luck DCC Troll Fans. 

 

My eldest donated her old phone to me yesterday so I had a practice at wideoing with it. 

 

Cracking layout. What sort of controller(s) are you using and where are the power feeds to the track ? I asked Andy P this question the other day but forgot he was a DCC disciple.

The reason I ask is that I had a big argument with my train set last week and threatened to rip it all up, but started behaving a bit better , except for one thing , and I don’t want to invest in a new controller if it doesn’t help. I have an old gauge master which still produces slow running as good as the DCC wallahs can get but there is a problem on one section. Basically I have 3 x 4ft baseboards on a scenic section plus fiddle yard with power connected at each end. The fiddle yard and boards 3&2 are all linked by rail joiners, and everything runs consistently. However there is a beak between boards 2& 1, (the terminus end) because of facing points. Therein lies problem . Trains run      into the terminus section, slowing down gently then suddenly speed up a bit just as the should be slowing to a walking pace before stopping. Then when the loco runs round the train it runs smoothly on board 1 then suddenly slows on baseboard 2. 

The controller is wired up to board 1 , but if I connect it with crocodile clips to board 2 the reverse happens I.e. boards 2&3 are ok and board 1 looses power.

looking at how evenly yours runs I wonder whether I need another track feed , or some problem with the controller but I can’t logically work out why either should be necessary. Any thoughts/suggestions ?

[Clive Mortimore]

44 minutes ago, jazzer said:

Cracking layout. What sort of controller(s) are you using and where are the power feeds to the track ? I asked Andy P this question the other day but forgot he was a DCC disciple.

The reason I ask is that I had a big argument with my train set last week and threatened to rip it all up, but started behaving a bit better , except for one thing , and I don’t want to invest in a new controller if it doesn’t help. I have an old gauge master which still produces slow running as good as the DCC wallahs can get but there is a problem on one section. Basically I have 3 x 4ft baseboards on a scenic section plus fiddle yard with power connected at each end. The fiddle yard and boards 3&2 are all linked by rail joiners, and everything runs consistently. However there is a beak between boards 2& 1, (the terminus end) because of facing points. Therein lies problem . Trains run      into the terminus section, slowing down gently then suddenly speed up a bit just as the should be slowing to a walking pace before stopping. Then when the loco runs round the train it runs smoothly on board 1 then suddenly slows on baseboard 2. 

The controller is wired up to board 1 , but if I connect it with crocodile clips to board 2 the reverse happens I.e. boards 2&3 are ok and board 1 looses power.

looking at how evenly yours runs I wonder whether I need another track feed , or some problem with the controller but I can’t logically work out why either should be necessary. Any thoughts/suggestions ?

I can have 4 controllers out of 6 in use at any one time. Each section has a rotatory switch to select the controller for that section. It also has an on-off switch that should be in the off position until I am about to move a train, that is so as I click say from controller 1 to 3 and I have another train working on controller 2 I do not power that section.  All sections are in parallel so all those switched to controller 3 should receive the same oomph as each other. 

The track plan showing the power feeds and isolating sections.

 

The control panel from the operating side.

Inside

 

The Gaugemaster GM500 that switch the point frogs.

 

I still have the signal wiring to put in and when that is in place I will tidy up my wiring.

 

Now your problem , without seeing your layout and its wiring sounds like there is a voltage drop between the baseboards. Again without seeing your wiring I can only guess at there being a problem with the connection. PM me some photos of the wiring and layout.

[ian]

Just two wires with DCC...

[Bogie]

On ‎29‎/‎04‎/‎2019 at 05:27, Clive Mortimore said:

Still here. So tough luck DCC Troll Fans. 

 

My eldest donated her old phone to me yesterday so I had a practice at wideoing with it. 

 

 

Mr M not only can you talk the talk but you can walk the walk.

 

That is fantastic - no wonder you have so many running sessions.

[Clive Mortimore]

3 minutes ago, ian said:

Just two wires with DCC...

Hi Ian

 

There are only two wires to each section as there would be to each power feed on a DCC layout.

 

Three wires to each point motor, as there would be to a layout using DCC controlled points.

 

Three wires to each frog switch as there would be if a switch or juicer was used for a DCC layout.

 

Just lots and lots of the same thing, which I enjoyed wiring up.

 

OK I have a few more wires in the control panel for the switches you do not need in DCC, but only two wires in each loco.

[5BarVT]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

 

Inside 

Luvverley!

[Andrew P]

Concord, Lancaster Bomber or NASSA control?

 

Just BRILLIANT wiring mate.

[richard i]

Wiring like that spider, your hired. Extension to dettingen will need doing. Management has agreed in principle to enlarged space to complete project. 

Richard

[Satan's Goldfish]

2 hours ago, jazzer said:

Cracking layout. What sort of controller(s) are you using and where are the power feeds to the track ? I asked Andy P this question the other day but forgot he was a DCC disciple.

The reason I ask is that I had a big argument with my train set last week and threatened to rip it all up, but started behaving a bit better , except for one thing , and I don’t want to invest in a new controller if it doesn’t help. I have an old gauge master which still produces slow running as good as the DCC wallahs can get but there is a problem on one section. Basically I have 3 x 4ft baseboards on a scenic section plus fiddle yard with power connected at each end. The fiddle yard and boards 3&2 are all linked by rail joiners, and everything runs consistently. However there is a beak between boards 2& 1, (the terminus end) because of facing points. Therein lies problem . Trains run      into the terminus section, slowing down gently then suddenly speed up a bit just as the should be slowing to a walking pace before stopping. Then when the loco runs round the train it runs smoothly on board 1 then suddenly slows on baseboard 2. 

The controller is wired up to board 1 , but if I connect it with crocodile clips to board 2 the reverse happens I.e. boards 2&3 are ok and board 1 looses power.

looking at how evenly yours runs I wonder whether I need another track feed , or some problem with the controller but I can’t logically work out why either should be necessary. Any thoughts/suggestions ?

 

 

Sounds like there is a voltage drop caused by however you are transferring the power between boards 1 and 2. So the first question is how are you electrically connecting boards 1 and 2? And have you given that a good clean and checked all the electrical connections involved?

[Clive Mortimore]

19 minutes ago, richard i said:

Wiring like that spider, your hired. Extension to dettingen will need doing. Management has agreed in principle to enlarged space to complete project. 

Richard

Hi Richard

 

Would the hiring include board and lodging in Colchester when I am required to fire up the soldering iron?

[john new]

21 minutes ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

 

Sounds like there is a voltage drop caused by however you are transferring the power between boards 1 and 2. So the first question is how are you electrically connecting boards 1 and 2? And have you given that a good clean and checked all the electrical connections involved?

 

Could something perhaps be  receiving power via a leakage? Sounds a daft one but on a club layout years ago we once had something similar occur and IIRC it was something you would never look for in a month of Sundays. As the boards had been put away on their sides at the end of club night some PVA from a ballasting job had dribbled and run across some contact points and even after it had dried was conductive. 

 

The other thought - is there a dodgy soldered joint or screwed together terminal/inserted wire that is increasing resistance?

Edited April 29, 2019 by john new

[St Enodoc]

5 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Ian

 

There are only two wires to each section as there would be to each power feed on a DCC layout.

 

Three wires to each point motor, as there would be to a layout using DCC controlled points.

 

Three wires to each frog switch as there would be if a switch or juicer was used for a DCC layout.

 

Just lots and lots of the same thing, which I enjoyed wiring up.

 

OK I have a few more wires in the control panel for the switches you do not need in DCC, but only two wires in each loco.

That's exactly how it works - whether DC, DCC or anything else.

Edited April 30, 2019 by St Enodoc

[jazzer]

10 hours ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

 

Sounds like there is a voltage drop caused by however you are transferring the power between boards 1 and 2. So the first question is how are you electrically connecting boards 1 and 2? And have you given that a good clean and checked all the electrical connections involved?

Thanks for the comment.  From the controller I have one pair or wires going ing to one end of the layout and one  going to the other end 16 feet away. I have been thinking that may be I needed and extra feed half way , but now I think not. I THOUGHT the electrical connections were good but after re-thinking it after yours and Clive's reply obviously the first step is to re-set and clean the connections . I still don't think it's that but clearly there's not much else I can start looking at until I've done that. 

Thanks a lot.

[jazzer]

11 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I can have 4 controllers out of 6 in use at any one time. Each section has a rotatory switch to select the controller for that section. It also has an on-off switch that should be in the off position until I am about to move a train, that is so as I click say from controller 1 to 3 and I have another train working on controller 2 I do not power that section.  All sections are in parallel so all those switched to controller 3 should receive the same oomph as each other. 

The track plan showing the power feeds and isolating sections.

 

The control panel from the operating side.

Inside

 

The Gaugemaster GM500 that switch the point frogs.

 

I still have the signal wiring to put in and when that is in place I will tidy up my wiring.

 

Now your problem , without seeing your layout and its wiring sounds like there is a voltage drop between the baseboards. Again without seeing your wiring I can only guess at there being a problem with the connection. PM me some photos of the wiring and layout.

Hi Clive Thanks for your comment. See more reply to Dr Goldfish. I will check the connections but I have also worked out a little experiment.  If I get two lengths of track, insulated from each other with power fed to each and then see how whether the same problem arises that should point me in the right direction .  I am flying out of the country on hols today so it will have to wait till I get back, but I will PM you, if that's ok if there is still a problem.

Thanks for taking the time to reply though. Sometimes we stare at these electrical problems and can't see the wood for the trees, especially those of us whose electrical knowledge is roughly that of a chipanzee

[Satan's Goldfish]

Another thought occurs from your description; how big/small are your wires doing the 16ft run? Keeping it simple, small diameter wiring has a greater resistance than heavy duty wires, even a 'short' 16ft length could be enough to see a voltage drop by the time it reaches the rails.

[jazzer]

8 hours ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

Another thought occurs from your description; how big/small are your wires doing the 16ft run? Keeping it simple, small diameter wiring has a greater resistance than heavy duty wires, even a 'short' 16ft length could be enough to see a voltage drop by the time it reaches the rails.

 

Thanks . I don’t think it’s that because one power feed runs about  10-12 feet from the controller then supplies about 12feet of track but the other one runs about 6 inches to the controller and only supplies 4feet of track. The drop in voltage ( assuming that’s what it is ) is normally on the longest section of track which logically suggests it’s something to do with the wiring, but if I connect the controller to the longer section with crocodile clips the situation is reversed, I.e. plenty of power in the longer section and a drop in speed on the shorter section. That’s what puzzles me.  It’s actually not all that much difference and if it was anywhere else it would hardly notice, but it just happens to be where the driver is making his final brake application coming to a stop so the increase in speed becomes quite noticeable.

Anyway I’ll have a look when I get back home. Sunnier climes and open air music are top of the agenda ATM. Flying out in the morning.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

[john new]

2 hours ago, jazzer said:

...., but if I connect the controller to the longer section with crocodile clips the situation is reversed, I.e. plenty of power in the longer section and a drop in speed on the shorter section....

 

With my testing head on, even without seeing it, from the symptoms you describe the what ever it is fault has to be in the wiring linkage.  Why do I say that?

1) It is replicate-able.

2) It reverses/swaps ends if the opposite ends are changed to the prime feeder.

3) The only commonality is therefore the intermediate link.

 

What happens if you disconnect the original connections completely and jump the gap with temporary bridging wires? From what you describe that should isolate the problem and the power will be the same both sides of the gap. That may not tell you what the fault is but should identify where it is.

Edited April 30, 2019 by john new

[richard i]

On 29/04/2019 at 17:44, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Richard

 

Would the hiring include board and lodging in Colchester when I am required to fire up the soldering iron?

Naturally the guest suite would be prepared . 

[jazzer]

10 hours ago, john new said:

 

With my testing head on, even without seeing it, from the symptoms you describe the what ever it is fault has to be in the wiring linkage.  Why do I say that?

1) It is replicate-able.

2) It reverses/swaps ends if the opposite ends are changed to the prime feeder.

3) The only commonality is therefore the intermediate link.

 

What happens if you disconnect the original connections completely and jump the gap with temporary bridging wires? From what you describe that should isolate the problem and the power will be the same both sides of the gap. That may not tell you what the fault is but should identify where it is.

 

Thank you for that. I have now  come to more or less the same conclusion. The funny thing is, one can look at a problem and get a mental block of ideas, then you bounce thoughts off others and they come up with thoughts and you think “ Why didn’t I think of that in the first place? “  

I expect when I get to the bottom of it, it will probably be the bleedin’ obvious, but thanks any way for kick starting my thought process.  As I said, I’ll be away on hols for a few weeks but if I sort it out when I get back I’ll put a post up and let you know.

[georgeT]

Hello Clive, l wonder if you could help me l need a power car for this trailer ? l bought it thinking l could simply get another but l can't seem to find one, any information appreciated, Bodgit seems to think you could help...BTW it's O gauge

Edited May 1, 2019 by georgeT

[Ravenser]

It says 121/122 DMU - those were single car units, with a cab at both ends . It looks nice but should have a motor 

 

While they were sometimes used in multiple with 117s on Paddington commuter services, and occasionally had a single-ended trailer attached , a single car DMU should be powered 

 

I assume this is a 7mm model?

Edited May 1, 2019 by Ravenser

[Clive Mortimore]

50 minutes ago, georgeT said:

Hello Clive, l wonder if you could help me l need a power car for this trailer ? l bought it thinking l could simply get another but l can't seem to find one, any information appreciated, Bodgit seems to think you could help...BTW it's O gauge

 

16 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

It says 121/122 DMU - those were single car units, with a cab at both ends . It looks nice but should have a motor 

Hi George

 

It is a trailer car for a Class 121. As Ravenser states the power car was a double cabbed affair, commonly called a bubble car. On some branches at busy times the unpowered trailer like you have would be coupled to the bubble car making a two car unit. https://railphotoprints.uk/p882512440/h84A70DFD#h84a70dfd

 

Hasn't Dapol made a powered O gauge bubble car?

 

It looks a nice model.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Clive Mortimore

[georgeT]

5 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

 

Hi George

 

It is a trailer car for a Class 121. As Ravenser states the power car was a double cabbed affair, commonly called a bubble car. On some branches at busy times the unpowered trailer like you have would be coupled to the bubble car making a two car unit. https://railphotoprints.uk/p882512440/h84A70DFD#h84a70dfd

 

Hasn't Dapol made a powered O gauge bubble car?

 

It looks a nice model.

 

Thanks for the quick reply Clive, it looks like my coach was only fitted to a 121 to make a two car unit in busy times, thanks again...

[stevea]

Hi, Clive

   Is there mischief afoot? I see that there now seem to be themed links at the foot of every thread in layout topics. On your thread I noted that it's DCC Help and Questions... That's a bit naughty....

Regards

Steve