Graham Farish N announcements July 2014 - SECR birdcage stock and some monster Scenecraft!

[Revolution Ben]

To me the quoting of N gauge sales as a percentage of OO sales is not very meaningful (if that is what is meant). It all rather depends what the OO market size is and it's trend. If OO sales have declined significantly in that period then 30% of them now may well be not much more than 15% of the earlier larger OO market size. On the other hand if OO has grown then to go from 15 to 30% could be a more than doubling of total N gauge sales in that period. 

 

A split of sales between the various gauges/scales and the total size (sales) of the market would be more indicative.

 

Hi Grahame,

 

Yes, good point.  You were there too - did you have a chance to ask them about this?

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[paulprice]

Am I the only one who is not too impressed with the offerings??

[Roy L S]

No Paul, you may actually be amongst the majority!

[paulprice]

Roy thanks its good to know it was not just me, sometimes I look at what is actually being released, and wonder if they are actually aimed at the modeller or just the box buying collector?

[grahame]

I found it difficult to get any absolutes - dates, figures, what next, etc.

 

I guess, and understandably, they're wary and concerned with how things might eventually turn out and releasing any meaningful and/or sensitive information. Presumably the market is in a bit of a flux (for several reasons like supply issues, labour problems, escalating costs, exchange rates and our economy - inflation up, wages lagging behind reducing disposal income, and what competitors are doing) and their announcements (few new products, time to catch up) is playing safe and cautious.

[lucazone]

Yep agreed with a lot of comments regarding slower releases. No problem with that, unless we look at how Beeching closed rural branch lines. Starve off N Gauge modellers with lack lust and infrequent releases that cost the same as 00, and then put out that the market cant be sustained and stop supporting it. Just a ponder.

 

My only question would be regarding the new tooled items - are they really the best choice to entice new modellers and grow the market?

 

Still that aside, I've got my sights on the NSE stock and some Dellner 57s, thanks Bachmann Though I'm still awaiting the ScotRail 47 and DBSO :/

[paulprice]

Yep agreed with a lot of comments regarding slower releases. No problem with that, unless we look at how Beeching closed rural branch lines. Starve off N Gauge modellers with lack lust and infrequent releases that cost the same as 00, and then put out that the market cant be sustained and stop supporting it. Just a ponder.

 

My only question would be regarding the new tooled items - are they really the best choice to entice new modellers and grow the market?

 

Still that aside, I've got my sights on the NSE stock and some Dellner 57s, thanks Bachmann Though I'm still awaiting the ScotRail 47 and DBSO :/

I don't understand why we had Scotts Guardsman in LMS black, a few years ago, then the same engine released in LMS Maroon, what a wasted opportunity, all I wanted was a Jubilee in LMS Black, oh well, perhaps your right about trying to stop supporting N gauge.

 

What I have noticed is if you look at 00 gauge, is the amount of "new" stock of releases two or three years old still sitting on the shelves in shops and not even discounted? I must admit I want an Ivatt 2-6-0 but every time I go to but one, I see the 00 version and feel a little short changed so leave the shop empty handed.....dam the 00 gauge lot

[grahame]

I'd have thought that a LMS black Jubilee would have been one of the easiest liveries to paint yourself. I bothered with painting a class 47 in to NSE which is a complex and difficult livery - now they've announced one. Perhaps if you have a go (we're modellers after all) they'll also announce one next time.

[jpendle]

Roy thanks its good to know it was not just me, sometimes I look at what is actually being released, and wonder if they are actually aimed at the modeller or just the box buying collector?

None of the new releases interest me as I'm modelling the North West today.

BUT I think Bachman deserve praise for bringing out pre-grouping stock. If they carry on and bring out something similar for the L&Y or LNWR I'd be tempted to build a small layout based around that.

 

John P

[paulprice]

I'd have thought that a LMS black Jubilee would have been one of the easiest liveries to paint yourself. I bothered with painting a class 47 in to NSE which is a complex and difficult livery - now they've announced one. Perhaps if you have a go (we're modellers after all) they'll also announce one next time.

your right, I have plans already to add two black examples to the fleet

[leachsprite4]

To me the silver anniversary train pack says a lot now as great opportunity missed not to have silver jubilee in original lms silver livery.

 

How much would collectors have paid for that and us modellers fought over them. Mind you a while to consolidate didn't Dapol say the same?

 

To me I admit I'm not spending at the moment as I'm working on kits and layout. That said I'm holding off the day of my first 100 loco, but likely to be n class or Dapol bullied depending on which comes first!

[msw2009]

I notice that a well-known Liverpool retailer is listing the birdcage sets at an eye-watering £102!  Although they stress it's a guide price, presuming they've included their usual 15% discount that suggests an rrp of £120.

 

It may initially seem like quite a lot of money after what we've been used to in recent years - the excellent Bulleids and Mk1s have until recently retailed for around £16 each - but we've been warned of looming price rises and I very much hope these sets are a success for Farish. 

 

There are relatively few rtr niche products that make it to the market in N gauge, although I acknowledge the excellent and greatly appreciated efforts of the NGS along with the occasional Dapol and impending DJ Models products that could be said to come from left-field. Farish have arguably been a little less adventurous than others to venture into such territory and whilst their investment in British N gauge is laudable they have played it safe to some degree.

 

I only have a small layout (SR, of course) but will be ordering at least one set and hope they sell well enough to encourage GF (and further encourage others) to look at some of the quirkier, less obvious offerings that our wonderful railway heritage has to offer.

 

Just a thought.

[paulprice]

Regardless of how much discount these attract at the point of release they are still very expensive models and must be a major chunk of most peoples modelling budgets. I know the level of detail now on the models particularly coaches is fantastic, but I hate to sound like a heretic do we really need it?

 

I mean I really appreciate the detail but from usual operating distances do you really see it? My Farish Stanniers are fantastic, but couple them up to my old Ultima models and from the usual operating distance I cant tell the difference.

 

I must admit to sometimes being a bit tight (prudent) when it comes to parting with my cash, I know I am not alone, but have you noticed how many of us ignore the initial releases of products, and wait, and wait until retailers get twitchy and pick up models at the "desperation must clear stocks" prices you quite often see?

 

I know someone who wanted a string of MK1's, initially he was looking at about £120 (practically £20 each), waited a couple of months and picked the models up for £13 quid each, which is almost the old Farish MK1 price.
 

[Roy L S]

I am sure everyone wants to make their modelling budget stretch as far as possible but the trouble is if we all sit and wait "prudently" in anticipation of cheap heavily discounted products which provide little or no margin for retailer and/or manufacturer how does that help grow the Market? Surely all it will do is encourage more wariness in future investment or worse still hasten it's demise?

 

Irrespective of what we think about pricing there has to be a margin in it sufficient to make investment worthwhile otherwise why should Bachmann and others bother?

 

There is an old saying that "you don't get owt for nowt". There is a cost to these models and while it may seem great in isolation to pick up a "bargain" (say) WD from Hattons for £79, too many of these and we will see no growth, possibly worse.

 

Sorry, if we want the hobby to survive we have to be prepared to pay if not the full RRP then a sensible price that provides a living for those who invest.

 

"Value" does not necessarily mean cheap and cheap is not necessarily good.

 

Roy

Edited July 23, 2014 by Roy L S

[Tim H]

I must admit to sometimes being a bit tight (prudent) when it comes to parting with my cash, I know I am not alone, but have you noticed how many of us ignore the initial releases of products, and wait, and wait until retailers get twitchy and pick up models at the "desperation must clear stocks" prices you quite often see?

 

 

I categorise each new model that's appropriate for my era and region as "essential" or "nice to have". The essential ones I'll buy when they come out, the "nice to haves" I'll wait and pick them if and when I see them heavily discounted.

 

Unfortunately for my wallet the Polybulks fall into the "essential" category....

[Roy L S]

If you only think of yourself in isolation and don't regard the bigger picture as important, then what you say about the hybrid car may be true. However if enough people change their mind set and buy a more "green" fuel efficient car (or not) then it does make a difference.

 

As far a my hobby is concerned I am not being "gallant" as you put it but pragmatic. I happen to like the current N Gauge offerings and want them to continue, but accept that to do that there is a cost. .

 

You will note that I did not suggest buying at RRP I suggested buying at a discount that still leaves a margin in it for those involved.

 

If you are happy as long as you get the cheapest price possible (even if it is less than cost) such that everyone loses money and you can accept the consequences, that is your choice, but I hope when/if it does come to it that you will not then be one of those who complains at the lack of new product investment or indeed worse.

 

With respect I find your view very short sighted.

 

Roy

 

P.S. Edit - My apologies too if I come across as overly grumpy, likewise only had one coffee as yet!

Edited July 23, 2014 by Roy L S

[Revolution Ben]

I am sure everyone wants to make their modelling budget stretch as far as possible but the trouble is if we all sit and wait "prudently" in anticipation of cheap heavily discounted products which provide little or no margin for retailer and/or manufacturer how does that help grow the Market? Surely all it will do is encourage more wariness in future investment or worse still hasten it's demise?

 

<snipped>

 

"Value" does not necessarily mean cheap and cheap is not necessarily good.

 

Roy

 

Hello Roy,

 

You've hit the nail on the head.  I'd like to think most of us are prepared to pay a fair price for a good product and acknowledge that what we pay doesn't just pay for the item itself, but also for future R&D for other models, salaries for those who make them, and the running costs of the retail industry that we need not just for these items but for many others - often including important but low-margin scenic items or scratchbuild materials.

 

Having said that, I do understand that no one wants to feel ripped off, or that they are being taken for a ride.  And yes, if you're prepared to be patient then the batch production model that is currently in vogue does can lead to a lower price a year or two down the line, though of course you also run the risk that the model will have sold out.

 

Like Tim above I tend to categorise models into "must have" and "would like" and then budget accordingly; but for the "must have" models then the additional £1, £5 or £10 I pay to own the model now, rather than in a year's time, is easily recouped by the enjoyment it gives me in that period.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[paulprice]

I must admit I need coffee too,

 

Its just a little frustrating being a "pre-nat" modeller, seeing almost constant releases of post 1948 models and then when something new is released that does not fall into category it appears to have a very limited or specialised area of operation.

 

I understand that retailers have to make a living, but sometimes I just have to apply a little hard nosed logic to my purchases, its hard enough to justify spending £100 for an N gauge loco to the Domestic Authority when they make comments like "but this 00 stuff is twice the size is it not better". That's even before I take the new purchase home and strip the factory applied paint finish off to repaint it.

 

I suppose the answer could be as others have suggested, is to take the easy route and just model 1948-68 like everyone else appears to do but who wants things to be easy?

[Karhedron]

I notice that a well-known Liverpool retailer is listing the birdcage sets at an eye-watering £102!  Although they stress it's a guide price, presuming they've included their usual 15% discount that suggests an rrp of £120.

I agree that on the face of it, the price does seem rather high (at least compared to what we are used to).

 

By comparison, the same Scouser establishment are offering pre-orders on the 4-car set of Dapol Maunsells at £72. That makes the Dapol coaches around 60% of the Farish ones on a price-per-coach basis.

 

Now there are all sorts of comparisons that could b made about the merits of one manufacturer vs the other. But at the end of the day, these coaches both ran on the SR in steam days and from the point of view of a casual buyer, I know which I would be leaning towards.

[Karhedron]

Like Tim above I tend to categorise models into "must have" and "would like" and then budget accordingly; but for the "must have" models then the additional £1, £5 or £10 I pay to own the model now, rather than in a year's time, is easily recouped by the enjoyment it gives me in that period.

I agree. I typically get GWR models when they are released (or even pre-order them). I am a western modeller and heart and do my best to encourage the manufacture of more stuff I like.

 

On the other hand, some stuff definitely falls more into the "nice to have" category. For this reason I have picked up items like a Dapol Brit and a rake of new Mk1 coaches for around 50% of RRP in various flash sales.

 

I am fortunate to have a regular income, even though a growing family means that the proportion of my budget that can go on modelling is actually fairly slim. However, we all cut our cloth according to our means.

[Mr chapman]

I happily pay £105 for a trio. Yes I'm aware that their expensive, I was hoping around the £75 mark. BUT the birdcage is a complicated shape that will be quite complicated to glaze ect. When you look at the price of a set of kits, solder, wheels, couplings, transfers, paint, details like roof vents and underfloor equipment I don't see them coming in much cheaper.

Are they expensive? Yes

Is it justified? Yes

Will I buy them? Hell yes! 

They've just handed me my dream coaches and I'm not about to turn around and say they cost more than I would like so no thanks. I'm happy for everyone else to wait, that way I might get a set on the first wave for a change

[talisman56]

I agree that on the face of it, the price does seem rather high (at least compared to what we are used to).

 

By comparison, the same Scouser establishment are offering pre-orders on the 4-car set of Dapol Maunsells at £72. That makes the Dapol coaches around 60% of the Farish ones on a price-per-coach basis.

 

Now there are all sorts of comparisons that could b made about the merits of one manufacturer vs the other. But at the end of the day, these coaches both ran on the SR in steam days and from the point of view of a casual buyer, I know which I would be leaning towards.

 

The Birdcage coaches are fully (relief) panelled, and the brake vehicles have a glazed raised roof section at one end. All this added detail (which is not 'extra' or 'super' detail) does make the model more complex than the panel sided Maunsells, Bulleids and Mark 1s. Whether that extra detail is worth 40%-odd extra purchase cost will be borne out when the product actually appears in the flesh for us to make that judgement.

[47475]

MK2As in blue/grey and NSE are very welcome, as is the MK1 works test train twin pack.

 

I hope we get to see some Trans-Pennine MK2As one day soon, too.

[Karhedron]

Back to Graham Farish, I was hoping that they would be announcing the missing Bulleid Brake composite, never mind!

I was rather hoping for this as well. They were used as strengthening vehicles, could be detached from expresses to form their own through trains (as per ACE) or paired up with a brake 3rd to produce the ubiquitous P-sets.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Am I right in recalling that some Birdcage sets moved to other parts of the Southern as electrification extended through Kent? I have tried looking for allocation details this morning on Google but without success (must be typing in the wrong keywords).

 

Can I bump this question? I would be interested in a set if I can justify them on the Western Section.