Mid-Cornwall Lines - 1950s Western Region in 00

[St Enodoc]

Ah, I see the schematic is much more complex in reality.

 

However, if you leave the dotted lines in, you have the ability to run trains both ways through the loops at the same time.

 

You could also lose the extra Down Main line and just run through one of the Penzance loops.

 

 

st_enodoc_yard.gif

That's a very good suggestion about the dotted tracks Stu. I'll see if I can find a way to do that without having to buy an extra Mini Panel. It should be OK at Penzance as there is a spare input, but at Paddington the Tregissey siding needs an input of its own meaning that all 30 are accounted for.

 

Alternatively, an extra route independent of the Mini Panel might be possible, just running the wires from the decoder direct to the push buttons.

 

Thanks.

[St Enodoc]

Last weekend I mentioned a strange clicking sound from the decoders. I connected up the auxiliary power supply to the Paddington UTP but it was still there. At the same time the routes would not throw reliably and trains kept stalling on the point frogs. Clearly something more fundamental was happening.

 

I took a closer look at what was going on and found that the clicking was associated with the EB1 circuit breaker for the accessory bus tripping, so there was either a short or an overload. The clicking seemed to be coming from the middle set of decoders at the Penzance/Paddington overlap, so I disconnected the accessory bus from that set and the clicking stopped. Next I disconnected one by one the three solenoids that are wired to that set of decoders. When they were all disconnected everything was OK but when any of the three was connected the EB1 tripped.

 

I checked for shorts and couldn't find any so I decided the problem must be an overload, as I had observed when I first set up the decoders earlier this year. Rather than increase the trip current on the EB1 I decided to connect the accessory bus direct to the SB5 first. In this configuration everything was OK.

 

So, what was causing the overload? I think it could only be the surge current to charge the capacitor in the decoders. With the present configuration there are 41 decoders in circuit, each of which has an individual capacitor on it. Even if each capacitor only draws say 100 mA, that is over 4 A just for the existing configuration. The final layout will have nearly 60 decoders so before I get that far I will probably have to run a separate booster for the accessory bus as otherwise it will trip the internal protection in the SB5. In the meantime I think that the way forward will be to fit a separate EB1 for each group of decoders. With no more than three sets of eight decoders in a group, this should give good protection. I've already got two EB1s that I can use for this, so I think I'll start this job next weekend.

 

Edited for typos and to distinguish between groups and sets of decoders

Edited July 17, 2016 by St Enodoc

[Mallard60022]

Blimey, great diagnosis and that stems from your superbly tidy and beautifully organised wiring; something I must aspire to but will fall very short of sadly.

Hope all is sorted anyway.

Phil

[St Enodoc]

Blimey, great diagnosis and that stems from your superbly tidy and beautifully organised wiring; something I must aspire to but will fall very short of sadly.

Hope all is sorted anyway.

Phil

Thanks Phil - I hope so too. What I did today was a temporary fix. I think that the additional EB1 circuit breakers will be the permanent solution.

[Mallard60022]

Those EB1s seem pretty good to me. Worth it seemingly?

Phil

[St Enodoc]

Those EB1s seem pretty good to me. Worth it seemingly?

Phil

Yes, if you are using an NCE 5 amp system like a Power Pro or SB5. If you are using the basic PowerCab they should not be used as the total output from the PowerCab is only 2 A. In this case current limiting using light bulbs (NCE CP6 or similar) is the way to go.

 

I can't speak for other DCC systems as I have no experience of them I'm afraid.

[Mallard60022]

Yes, if you are using an NCE 5 amp system like a Power Pro or SB5. If you are using the basic PowerCab they should not be used as the total output from the PowerCab is only 2 A. In this case current limiting using light bulbs (NCE CP6 or similar) is the way to go.

 

I can't speak for other DCC systems as I have no experience of them I'm afraid.

That's really helpful as I'm starting with my existing Power Cab but upgrading to 5A Pro once the thing works OK. Thanks.

Phil

[islandbridgejct]

Hello. 2p worth, from the armchair, after a long working Sunday:

 

How will the layout run? Will trains dispatched from Paddington go back into the Paddington sidings, ready to run again the same direction? Or will they end up in the Penzance loops and be turned to return to Paddington? If the latter, why do you need loops at all? You could run the up and down main in front of them, and run them to a dead end / traverser release up against the wall (if it's not too far away.) Then a quick trip up the line to a convenient turntable, and you're ready to depart.

 

But if you're using the former approach, why do you need 2 sets of loops at all? Wouldn't it be better to have 6 double length loops for up and down, without distinguishing Paddington from Penzance?

 

Your original layout seems most practical if you do need 2 sets of loops, because the yard can be accessed from either line without blocking the other, though I think the real railway would be more likely to have had a double junction into a receiving loop - but maybe this is not one of those cases where being true to prototype matters. Your revised layout seems to make better use of space, but then I don't understand the need for 2 sets of double ended loops.

 

Maybe just my stupidity after a 15 hour working day (blah). Thanks for the distraction of a layout question - it helps. You can have your 2p back now.

 

Alan

[St Enodoc]

Hello. 2p worth, from the armchair, after a long working Sunday:

 

How will the layout run? Will trains dispatched from Paddington go back into the Paddington sidings, ready to run again the same direction? Or will they end up in the Penzance loops and be turned to return to Paddington? If the latter, why do you need loops at all? You could run the up and down main in front of them, and run them to a dead end / traverser release up against the wall (if it's not too far away.) Then a quick trip up the line to a convenient turntable, and you're ready to depart.

 

But if you're using the former approach, why do you need 2 sets of loops at all? Wouldn't it be better to have 6 double length loops for up and down, without distinguishing Paddington from Penzance?

 

Your original layout seems most practical if you do need 2 sets of loops, because the yard can be accessed from either line without blocking the other, though I think the real railway would be more likely to have had a double junction into a receiving loop - but maybe this is not one of those cases where being true to prototype matters. Your revised layout seems to make better use of space, but then I don't understand the need for 2 sets of double ended loops.

 

Maybe just my stupidity after a 15 hour working day (blah). Thanks for the distraction of a layout question - it helps. You can have your 2p back now.

 

Alan

Alan, those are all good points, some of which I have pondered at length over the last few years.

 

Most of the trains will run into the loops in one direction and then run out again in the opposite direction (i.e. changing from Up to Down or vice versa) but there are some trains that will either a) only make a one-way trip in the sequence or b) magically turn into a different, later, train running in the same direction (this saves a lot of coaches!). However, from time to time, it's convenient to be able run trains round the circuit and back to where they came from. This is definitely the case when I'm on my own without the rest of the team around. I found the back to back "dead end" fiddle yards on the existing St Enodoc branch layout rather restrictive in that sense so I think that double-ended loops are here to stay. I suppose I am saying that at the most basic level I want a roundy-roundy rather than an end-to-end layout.

 

I looked very seriously at having a single set of loops running all the way round the walls with no points in the corner - not least because of the time saving on building, motorising and wiring all the points. I even got to the point of drawing it out to scale with transitions in and out of each track to increase the track centres round the curves. However, I felt that having very long loops with perhaps 5 trains nose to tail in each would not give me enough flexibility.

 

The "independent" main lines were intended for when I just want to watch the trains go by. I'm not sure now whether I need them to be independent at all or just incorporated into the loops themselves. I don't think losing the ability to have a train circulating on the Up Main while a different train is running into or out of the loops is too important either. It won't happen during sequence operation and when we are playing trains we can just stop the other train when we need to. I might tweak the plan further with this in mind.

 

If I'd thought about all this earlier I might have designed the loop entry and exit tracks with scissors crossovers but doing that now would involve reconfiguring the tracks on the scenic sections as well as the loops. For better or worse this is probably a step too far.

 

All good food for thought and all helpful in moving bit by bit towards the eventual answer.

 

Thanks.

[St Enodoc]

That's really helpful as I'm starting with my existing Power Cab but upgrading to 5A Pro once the thing works OK. Thanks.

Phil

Sounds good Phil. For a layout your size you probably don't need to go the full Monty and get a Power Pro. Upgrading to the SB5 will be a lot cheaper and will let you run with up to 6 throttles which should be plenty.

[St Enodoc]

On 17/07/2016 at 01:38, Stubby47 said:

You could also lose the extra Down Main line and just run through one of the Penzance loops.

Stu, I've been mulling over your and Alan's comments. You made me wonder why I need to designate the "main lines" through the storage area at all - and the answer is that I don't. The main lines cease to exist at the point where they go offstage. Everything beyond that is just the off-stage loops.

 

So if I replace the main lines by additional loops, and add one more connection at each end, I can have 14 loops in each of Paddington and Penzance that have access at both ends to and from both main lines on the scenic section.

 

 

The outermost loop at Paddington and the innermost loop at Penzance have to be kept clear to allow this, but the whole layout ends up far simpler and, dare I say it, more elegant. I've checked this against the scale plan and it will work, although the connections will come off in slightly different places (which is why I didn't show the Tregissey siding on these sketches).

 

I'll still need to remodel the overlap area, and I will need to build a few extra points, but at the moment I think it will work.

 

Again, I won't start making any changes on the layout itself until I have taken the time to try to find reasons they won't work, so further comments are still welcome.

 

So thanks for stirring the pot and reminding me of one of my favourite maxims - less is more.

Edited July 22, 2023 by St Enodoc
images restored

[60012 Commonwealth of Australia]

Just spent a very enjoyable hour reading through this (got distracted from SOS Junction)

 

It's incredibly neat, and makes every layout (and indeed every wiring job) I've ever done look like it was done by a 6 year old (admittedly one or two of them were, but anyway )

 

It's not my region, but looks great and I really need to stop being tempted by the Hornby BR Blue Castle.... Must tell myself a blue A3 will suffice

 

Look forward to seeing more progress, and the outcome of what will happen with the fiddle yard.

 

Peter

[Stubby47]

So here's me thinking Sydney to Melbourne can't be that far... It's 859 miles, via the coastal route, further than the length of the UK.

 

The size of Australia does not compute...

[60012 Commonwealth of Australia]

So here's me thinking Sydney to Melbourne can't be that far... It's 859 miles, via the coastal route, further than the length of the UK.

 

The size of Australia does not compute...

By car, using the most direct route, it's about 545 miles (877km)

 

And yeah, it's way bigger than the UK! Although that being said I've travelled further in the UK than in Australia... The furthest I've been in Aus is Adelaide which is 727km, but in the UK I've gone from London up to Inverness which is 914km...

 

Peter

Edited July 23, 2016 by 60012 Commonwealth of Australia

[The Stationmaster]

So here's me thinking Sydney to Melbourne can't be that far... It's 859 miles, via the coastal route, further than the length of the UK.

 

The size of Australia does not compute...

 

It's easy enough in one of these Stu (sorry about the brand - fortunately 'he' doesn't own it although he gets royalties for the name)

 

[St Enodoc]

So here's me thinking Sydney to Melbourne can't be that far... It's 859 miles, via the coastal route, further than the length of the UK.

 

The size of Australia does not compute...

It's not far really. Only an hour by air, 10 or 11 by road and about the same by rail. Perth takes a bit longer - 68 hours by rail and I don't know how many by road, with a two-hour time difference thrown in. We tend to measure journeys in terms of time rather than distance. - it doesn't feel quite so bad then.

[St Enodoc]

Just spent a very enjoyable hour reading through this (got distracted from SOS Junction)

 

It's incredibly neat, and makes every layout (and indeed every wiring job) I've ever done look like it was done by a 6 year old (admittedly one or two of them were, but anyway )

 

It's not my region, but looks great and I really need to stop being tempted by the Hornby BR Blue Castle.... Must tell myself a blue A3 will suffice

 

Look forward to seeing more progress, and the outcome of what will happen with the fiddle yard.

 

Peter

Thanks Peter and thanks for all the Likes. I'm off to play trains tomorrow with some mates (0 gauge, Midland Railway, 1910) and we shall no doubt mull over the fiddle yard question during the afternoon.

[Mallard60022]

It's easy enough in one of these Stu (sorry about the brand - fortunately 'he' doesn't own it although he gets royalties for the name)

 

129_DS~1.jpg

Is that DCC & P4?

Phil

[60012 Commonwealth of Australia]

Thanks Peter and thanks for all the Likes. I'm off to play trains tomorrow with some mates (0 gauge, Midland Railway, 1910) and we shall no doubt mull over the fiddle yard question during the afternoon.

O gauge MR?

 

I have one of Johnsons 1Fs in pieces on my work desk (in 0 haha) awaiting me to be bothered to finish it! Also needs a motor and new wheels as I don't really like the cast wheels it came with given the unsightly gap in the spokes to allow for electrickery to take place!

 

And then once that's done, and I've spend $????? on Dunoon (appropriate number of ? inserted ) I can get around to giving it a layout and some rolling stock haha.

 

Enjoy playing around tomorrow (take photos!), and we all look forward to seeing the outcome of the fiddle yard conundrum.

 

Peter

[60012 Commonwealth of Australia]

Is that DCC & P4?

Phil

Nope but this is (sort of)

 

 

It's P4 cause I pushed the (cr**py split axle) wheels out and then coated the axles and wheels in superglue because half the plastic part of each axle broke. It's waiting for a decent chassis and probably Ultrascale or Brassmasters P4 wheels. Subsequently, I don't think it runs... (Can't be bothered testing it yet)

 

And it's sort of DCC because I shoved a TTS Sound A4 chip in the tender before I use it on another loco. No wires soldered though, just a loose chip which makes a lot of noise when I move it haha

 

*Sorry for the thread hijack!

 

*edit - It was converted after this photo, as can be seen it's on old Tri-Ang Super 4 Code 1000000 track!

Edited July 23, 2016 by 60012 Commonwealth of Australia

[Gwiwer]

It's easy enough in one of these Stu (sorry about the brand - fortunately 'he' doesn't own it although he gets royalties for the name)

 

129_DS~1.jpg

 

 

Point of Order, Mike, as Virgin Blue hasn't existed for some time now.  The brand is currently Virgin Australia with a "more white" colour scheme.  They are the carrier of choice for many Australians making inter-Capital flights though they don't service every regional location as do Jetstar / QANTAS.  The former is the "no-frills" brand of the latter for those unaware and now has a substantial operation in the Asian region as well.  Third cab off the rank is Tiger Airways with a few flights between the major cities.  Sydney - Melbourne is one of the world's busiest air corridors with flights every 15 - 30 minutes most of the day including Sundays.

 

I've driven from Melbourne to Adelaide and from Melbourne to Sydney.  The latter via both inland and coastal routes.  The coast is much the better for scenery but takes twice as long.  Inland it's straight up the Hume Highway at a steady 110kmh (72mph) for the most part and is, for mile after mile, very much the same scenery while you dodge the trucks and dead roos on the road.

 

I have also driven via Canberra through the mountains which is probably the best route of all between Melbourne and Sydney Turn left at Cann River up the Monaro Highway and head for the hills!  That's a superb and surprisingly remote drive until you reach Cooma.  Which ever way you go top up the tank at regular intervals, carry some water and at least snack food.  Check the spare tyre and the wheel brace.  Stay rested and hydrated and drive safely.

 

Now back to Paddington - Penzance which is still a fair trek at 300-plus miles but also one full of pretty scenery, places to stop and where no-one is going to greet you with "G'day darl"

[simonfish45]

...but years ago you would have heard an porter shouting 'snur-sny' while he walked up and down the platform.

This translates as'St. Erth change here for St. Ives' .

[St Enodoc]

A very enjoyable afternoon with friends today, operating a fine 0 gauge model railway. It's an end-to-end Midland Railway layout set in the Leicestershire/Nottinghamshire area in about 1910, with two passing stations en route and a set of colliery exchange sidings. The whole thing coils round the room via a sequence of three 180-degree turns.

 

The owner is a very private man and would prefer not to see more details in the public domain, so unfortunately I can't tell you much more other than that I still don't like loose couplings even in 7 mm scale.

 

We did chat about the Mid-Cornwall Lines storage loops over tea and cakes. The overall view was that I should make the changes so I have decided to go ahead. Watch this space for the gory details once I get going.

 

The main challenge is going to be the route setting. With the extra connections, there will now be 33 possible routes at Penzance and 34 at Paddington (the extra one being the Tregissey siding). Each Mini Panel is limited to 30, so I will have to find another way to operate the extras. I have two thoughts in mind. The first is that some of the routes - the crossovers at the "outer" ends of the loops, for example - only involve one or two points so I will try operating those directly from the push buttons using the "Momentary" input terminals on the decoders. If that doesn't work I will have to bite the bullet and upgrade from the SB5 to the full Power Pro system so that I can add two extra Mini Panels. The first method will be a lot less expensive.

 

In other news, the almost-mythical 40 foot cab bus cable finally arrived yesterday, so I fitted it in place of the temporary 4-core cable. I also took the chance to run it along the back of the layout, away from the accessory bus that runs along the front so as to minimise any risk of interference between them. This also gave me the chance to install another UTP so that there is now one each at Paddington Down end and Penzance Up end, for use if the radio system goes wrong for any reason.

 

I also bought another EB1 circuit breaker so I can now connect one to each of the decoder groups. DCC Concepts has confirmed that the turn-on current can be up to 150 mA per decoder, so that is almost certainly why the overload I mentioned last week was happening.

Edited July 24, 2016 by St Enodoc

[Barry O]

Midland Railway.. proper job engines and stock! We may still see you return from the "WR dark side"

 

In the old dcc days you would now be rebuilding PCBs with altered diode matrices to get the new route selections right..... as TUI would say... yeh, right!

 

Baz

[St Enodoc]

Midland Railway.. proper job engines and stock! We may still see you return from the "WR dark side"

 

In the old dcc days you would now be rebuilding PCBs with altered diode matrices to get the new route selections right..... as TUI would say... yeh, right!

 

Baz

Thanks Baz and congratulations on submitting the 500th post.

 

You're right about diode matrices. I'd still be using them If I hadn't decided to go DCC for the storage loop points.