The Engine Shed

[dibber25]

I am not questioning your motives. But your employer* is out to make money.

 

Some people argue that Hornby would get a good return from giving free stuff to profit-seeking publishers. But none of us is in a position to know that: only Hornby knows their cost/benefit, and, therefore, whether or not what you want is "unreasonable".

 

Given how heavy Hornby's losses have been recently, and given the - to me - impressive turnaround their new management has achieved, I'm happy to keep giving them the benefit of any doubt.

 

Paul

 

* I think you've told us before that you've retired, so replace this word with whatever is appropriate!

You seem to be talking about free review samples. That debate has been dead and buried for months. I was talking about the supply of information by e-mail, which you will see if you re-read my post. I am still employed by Bauer Media as Consultant Editor on their railway/model railway titles. 

CHRIS LEIGH

[Fenman]

You seem to be talking about free review samples. That debate has been dead and buried for months. I was talking about the supply of information by e-mail, which you will see if you re-read my post. I am still employed by Bauer Media as Consultant Editor on their railway/model railway titles.

CHRIS LEIGH

I was including both: it takes time for someone to communicate, and time costs businesses money.

 

Paul

[ruggedpeak]

So what we are saying is, you can't please all of the people all of the time?

 

And on that bombshell........

[dibber25]

Surely this is the wrong way of looking at it?

 

I would suggest the most important question is "what is in the best interests of our readers?", not whether this is an opportunity for revenge in a game of tit-for-tat.

 

Paul

You're quite right. Reviews are published, whenever possible, in the next available issue after the sample is obtained/received. We would not hold back a sample in order to review it alongside another similar model. If the two arrived together, it is possible that the reviews would appear in the same issue and I think this did happen once during my tenure as Editor - once in about 15 years.

 

CHRIS LEIGH

[jjb1970]

I think the engine shed is a terrific effort from Hornby. Along with Simon Kohler's blog I think it represents a vast improvement in how Hornby communicate with their customers. In that sense I think it is to be applauded.

 

However, there is no reason why Hornby cannot maintain communications with the press in addition to promoting their efforts through blogs and their website. Clearly they are not going to meet the press every fortnight as what would they have to say and it'd cost a lot in terms of time. I think an annual get together supported by informal chats at trade shows and exhibitions would be quite adequate.

 

Magazines aren't going away, despite the constant predictions that the Internet and technologies such as tablets and smart phones would kill off the printed magazine there is no sign of that happening yet. However I also think that magazines are surviving partly by adapting to a changed information environment. People do get most of their news via other channels now, magazines that thrive are offering informative articles and in depth coverage to help people understand and use the news they receive from other channels. If we look at railway magazines then "Modern Railways" does include a news section but I suspect (certainly in my case) that is not why people buy the magazine, they buy it for some very good feature articles and writers. I do not buy Model Rail or Railway Modeller to get news, I buy them as I like the articles and tips on becoming a better modellers, I also like the reviews in Model Rail.

 

Given that, I can see why Hornby do not see the magazines as their priority in terms of disseminating news. I accept there are still people who do not use the Internet, but nowadays most people who do not have access to the Internet will have made a choice to opt out and I'm not sure that I know anybody now that never uses the Internet. Usually the argument that some people do not use the Internet points to older people as the example but in my experience older people have taken to the web like a duck to water and I know loads of older people that love the Internet. Hornby are like any other business, anything they spend will have to be justified by being able to demonstrate some sort of return on that spend and demonstrating that it adds value. If they have decided that direct comms between them and their consumers offer the best value then I'm guessing there is a rationale to support that position.

 

Like I say, I do think Hornby should engage with the model press, but I'd see that engagement more in terms of longer term vision and ideas, not as a way of disseminating what we might call news.

[Dunsignalling]

Surely this is the wrong way of looking at it?

 

I would suggest the most important question is "what is in the best interests of our readers?", not whether this is an opportunity for revenge in a game of tit-for-tat.

 

Paul

There is no moral superiority in refusing to play tit-for-tat with Hornby if it would disadvantage one of their competitors by (hypothetically) holding back a review of a duplicating product which might have beaten theirs to market. 

 

My point was that, if Hornby refuse to communicate with magazine editors, they shouldn't be surprised if the modelling press no longer give them the easy ride that has been (with a few honourable exceptions) the norm in the past.

 

The duty of the magazines is to inform their readers of what is happening as soon as it happens, not managing news for the benefit of one player.

 

The choice between buying the first model to market immediately or waiting to see how the other one turns out is for the buyer to make, not a magazine editor.

 

John

[The Stationmaster]

I'm not sure I would go quite that far Ian. It is one promise kept by the executive team. Let's see if the others are kept too.

I do wonder if it in reality is one department 'let off the leash' by a new management decision?  The whole feeling of 'The Engine Shed' is that there is some enthusiasm and more than a touch of fun (in the nicest way) about it - thus what the management said they would do is actually happening because those doing it want to do so and enjoy it.  Not quite the same thing as telling department ABC that they will now have to do so & so.

 

As far as press/media relations are concerned it would seem to have gone in the opposite direction - a gregarious and enthusiastic individual who seemingly enjoyed 'playing to the gallery' and having an annual starring role in revealing future plans has gone and there is no one to fill the void.  Let's be honest SK could, and no doubt sometimes did, get a rough ride at shows and probably at times he got some fairly penetrating questions from the model railway press and he was undoubtedly 'a company man' when it came to representing his employers.  To do that sort of thing you need enthusiasm, knowledge, a thick skin, a fair bit of ability to 'spin' the subject, and an ability to develop relationships.  Take away something (i'.e someone) who has had years of experience doing it and who enjoyed it (most of the time one imagines) and it is awfully difficult to replace however you do it. 'Awfully difficult' of course also translates in business terms to expensive.

 

That's not an argument for Hornby not communicating with the model railway media but in many respects a view on the difficulties that might be involved if you don't understand how such relationships work for your company - and I have a suspicion that might be the problem with Hornby's present senior managers and directors; it's just an area with which they are not familiar.

[dibber25]

I do wonder if it in reality is one department 'let off the leash' by a new management decision?  The whole feeling of 'The Engine Shed' is that there is some enthusiasm and more than a touch of fun (in the nicest way) about it - thus what the management said they would do is actually happening because those doing it want to do so and enjoy it.  Not quite the same thing as telling department ABC that they will now have to do so & so.

 

As far as press/media relations are concerned it would seem to have gone in the opposite direction - a gregarious and enthusiastic individual who seemingly enjoyed 'playing to the gallery' and having an annual starring role in revealing future plans has gone and there is no one to fill the void.  Let's be honest SK could, and no doubt sometimes did, get a rough ride at shows and probably at times he got some fairly penetrating questions from the model railway press and he was undoubtedly 'a company man' when it came to representing his employers.  To do that sort of thing you need enthusiasm, knowledge, a thick skin, a fair bit of ability to 'spin' the subject, and an ability to develop relationships.  Take away something (i'.e someone) who has had years of experience doing it and who enjoyed it (most of the time one imagines) and it is awfully difficult to replace however you do it. 'Awfully difficult' of course also translates in business terms to expensive.

 

That's not an argument for Hornby not communicating with the model railway media but in many respects a view on the difficulties that might be involved if you don't understand how such relationships work for your company - and I have a suspicion that might be the problem with Hornby's present senior managers and directors; it's just an area with which they are not familiar.

Good to see SK running the Locomotion stand at the Peterborough BRM show this afternoon and to have a chat. He's written the intro for a Model Rail 'bookazine' project that will be out before Christmas . Andy assures me that RMweb receives no direct communication from Hornby, either, so it's not just the printed mags which are being ignored. Bachmann was there with a manned display. Hornby wasn't. Plenty of early crest S15s available from various traders - no late crests seen.

CHRIS LEIGH

Edited October 17, 2015 by dibber25

[grahame]

I accept there are still people who do not use the Internet, but nowadays most people who do not have access to the Internet will have made a choice to opt out and I'm not sure that I know anybody now that never uses the Internet. Usually the argument that some people do not use the Internet points to older people as the example but in my experience older people have taken to the web like a duck to water and I know loads of older people that love the Internet.

I don't think this is universally true and believe that the number of railway modellers who are both internet savvy and connected is over stated.

 

My experience, as editor of the NGS Journal with a circulation of around 6000 members, is that that far more of them do not use email or the internet than I initially thought. Many still communicate by hand written posted letters! There have been weeks when I receive more letters than emails from members. This seems to indicate that many of our older members (N gauge modellers) are not connected.

 

If that example if replicated across the entire railway modelling market then potentially those who rely on electronic methods for disseminating information are missing a significant potential market segment.

 

G.

Edited October 17, 2015 by grahame

[dibber25]

I don't think this is universally true and believe that the number of railway modellers who are both internet savvy and connected is over stated.

 

My experience, as editor of the NGS Journal with a circulation of around 6000 members, is that that far more of them do not use email or the internet than I initially thought. Many still communicate by hand written posted letters! There have been weeks when I receive more letters than emails from members. This seems to indicate that many of our older members (N gauge modellers) are not connected.

 

If that example if replicated across the entire railway modelling market then potentially those who rely on electronic methods for disseminating information are missing a significant potential market segment.

 

G.

It's a widely-held misconception among those for whom the internet is the be-all and end-all of life, that everyone feels the same as they do. You're quite right, while there is some decline overall in the market for printed magazines, it probably equates to little more than age-related attrition of the railway modelling market as a whole. For younger folk, yes, the internet is clearly No. 1, but look at the attendance at an average model railway exhibition and they aren't 'younger folk'! Hornby's eggs are very much all in one basket at present. It makes life more difficult for the established model railway media (which includes RMweb, Andy tells me) but we all continue to report Hornby news obtained from other sources. It's better, however, to get information from the horse's mouth and to have a working relationship with the organisations whose products we are publicising.

CHRIS LEIGH

[Ian Hargrave]

Well said,Chris Leigh.....and it needs to be said.

[jjb1970]

I'm not denying that there are people who do not use the Internet, however it is not just model railway producers that have pushed more of their marketing efforts to the Internet, it is a pretty much universal move. And I do not really accept the assumption that older people are not interested in using the Internet, it is not something I've found. Quite the opposite, the older people I know use the web as much as younger people, a few of the older members of my family were not that hot on it until they discovered using Skype to keep in touch with grand children, use social media and such like and now they use the web all the time.

 

I think most of these arguments are based on a false premise as the implied argument seems to be that people will either buy magazines or use the Internet, there is no reason why people cannot use the Internet and still buy magazines. I don't really get much news about anything from printed media however I do buy magazines, but I expect different content from printed media and if the magazines were purely about news I'd have stopped buying them long ago in all likelihood. Even though I could get the on-line editions of the magazines I read when it comes to things like modelling tips and in depth articles I still enjoy printed copy.

[grahame]

I do not really accept the assumption that older people are not interested in using the Internet, it is not something I've found. Quite the opposite, the older people I know use the web as much as younger people,

 

I don't think anyone has claimed or suggested that older people in general are not interested in the internet. However in my experience, and certainly from wider than just friends and family, I get the impression that there are still many not connected - for whatever reason. There are certainly those not interested but also those unaware, cant afford it, unable due to illness or disabilty, phobias, or even out of range. Consequently the number of those who are connected and do use it is probably over estimated.

 

G.

[Ian Hargrave]

If we have no knowledge of non Internet users this shouldn't be interpreted as proof that they do not exist.Remember that business of "no man is an island....." .? These folk still need a voice to speak for them and in a sense to be their eyes and ears.Reading some of this thread,I think I can be forgiven for reaching the conclusion that some of us seem to lack an awareness of the needs or existence of others.

And yes,I do think The Engine Shed is a brilliant conception..but it is not all things to all men.I actually have met "older people " who do not use and have no intention whatsoever of using the world wide web.Pllease be careful of stigmatising them and .....as many elder statesmen have experienced....marginalising them.

 

There is room for all forms of communication.....in cyberspace and in print.Can we accept that ?

[Ozexpatriate]

The whole feeling of 'The Engine Shed' is that there is some enthusiasm and more than a touch of fun (in the nicest way) about it - thus what the management said they would do is actually happening because those doing it want to do so and enjoy it.  Not quite the same thing as telling department ABC that they will now have to do so & so.

Very much so Mike. That enthusiasm feels evident and is infectious. To me it feels like "The Engine Shed" blog comes from the heart of the development team and does not feel like an overly filtered, carefully crafted product of a marcom professional. There is a lot of appeal in that.

 

That's not an argument for Hornby not communicating with the model railway media but in many respects a view on the difficulties that might be involved if you don't understand how such relationships work for your company - and I have a suspicion that might be the problem with Hornby's present senior managers and directors; it's just an area with which they are not familiar.

On the subject of communications with the trade press, and without consideration of the substance of the answers, Mr. Southworth has certainly made himself available on at least two published occasions including us directly (was it a year ago or more?) and more recently with Phil Parker at MREmag. I imagine that the trade press regularly reaches out to him for 'on the record' comments. Without knowing more I don't want to draw any conclusions.

 

Andy York made the observation that a big benefit of communicating directly with the press is the opportunity to ask follow-up questions that are not possible with one-direction, broadcast, out-bound marketing efforts. I don't know where the communications gap is but there does appear to be one.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Ozexpatriate

[grahame]

I don't know where the communications gap is but there does appear to be one.

Yep, and I think you've answered and identified that one - communication needs to be two way and it should engage with all potential customers.

 

Cheers.

G.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

communication needs to be two way and it should engage with all potential customers.

 

Not necessarily so, if the business is aiming for maximum returns while in a situation of supply constraint.

 

Brutally, the aim is the minimum spend on communication that will obtain the maximum profit as rapidly as possible from the volume of product brought to market. Targetting the most affluent segment with the greatest awareness and willingness to spend is a likely route to this goal, and is consistent with Hornby very clearly seeking to grow  their direct sales, with no retailer involvement. The picture I am getting is of a business that probably cannot source the manufacture of goods in the quantities it once did - no surprise considering that their one time supplier, the now closed Sanda Kan operation, was the largest maker of such goods -  and so there is a tight focus on wringing the maximum profit as fast as possible from what can be brought to market.

[grahame]

.

 

Targetting the most affluent segment with the greatest awareness and willingness to spend is a likely route to this goal, and is consistent with Hornby very clearly seeking to grow  their direct sales, with no retailer involvement.

What Hornby appear to be doing is selecting the cheapest channel not the one that leads to the most affluent customers. And even targetting affluent customers is not the best approach - the ideal audience is those with the greatest propensity to spent, rather than just those with most wealth and awareness. Growing your customer base is a better long term solution than scaling back on communicating.

 

G.

[jjb1970]

People seem to be forgetting that Hornby publish an annual catalogue to promote their current product range. That is printed on paper and sold in model shops. If people are determined to avoid on-line communication then they have this catalogue to use. And despite the complaints magazines still carry stories about Hornby and people can keep on top of things by taling to their local model shops. Most local model shops love talking to customers about what is happening with the lines they stock. There are also model clubs, many modellers have friends that model. And people seem to be forgetting that two way communication still includes sending a letter to Hornby or making a line for somebody like Simon Kohler if he is at an exhibition. People who criticise the idea of internet based communications tend to overlook just how many ways information is still disseminated outside of the web. Clearly there are people who live alone in remote places who will rely on either the internet and printed media for their links with the world.

From Hornby's perspective their marketing and promotional efforts will be targeted both to get the best returns and also to grow their business. Something to remember is that Hornby are not a charity, neither are they a major corporation with large PR departments whose only purpose is to plant stories in the media and manipulate public opinion. Personally I wouldn't like the sort of cosey relationship between suppliers and magazines I see in some sectors where it can all get a bit too comfortable.

[reevesthecat]

Hornby do produce a catalogue which does sometimes include pictures of the prototype rather than the actual finished model and I would prefer a release direct from Hornby rather than the word of mouth suggested as this story may have been through several changes before it reaches my ears. I have the Internet and read the communications I do not belong to a club or have friends who model. How do Hornby reach those like me who also may not have the Internet?

Mark

[ruggedpeak]

Hornby do produce a catalogue which does sometimes include pictures of the prototype rather than the actual finished model and I would prefer a release direct from Hornby rather than the word of mouth suggested as this story may have been through several changes before it reaches my ears. I have the Internet and read the communications I do not belong to a club or have friends who model. How do Hornby reach those like me who also may not have the Internet?

Mark

 

The question is how Hornby cost-effectively reach those who don't have the internet? Marketing is not about reaching ever single possible customer, it is about reaching the maximum possible of customers for the minimum cost. Nat S's comments last year stated that they had done market research and segmentation on their customers. If true and done well they should have a good idea of how various segments can be reached and some idea of the likely cost and response rates. We have no idea of what that research shows, but it could well be that those without the internet and don't read mags etc are in fact not cost-effective/profitable customers to reach.

 

We need Hornby to be succesful and profitable, and like any business that means targetting those customers who generate the best returns. Long term relationships are lovely, but not if they come at disproportionate cost or are unprofitable. A common mistake in business is clinging onto long term customers who it transpires do not actually yield any value. This is arguably the situation with magazines, Hornby are clearly looking at their marketing mix and (probably experimenting) to alter it to deliver better performance for the business. I know from experience of my own business that some specialist mags can think they are some utterly essential part of a hobby (in my case not modelling) with a sense of entitlement and who's editors should be treated with god-like status. This was the case maybe 20 years ago when there were only one or two key mags that had influence. It comes a bit of a shock to some that the world has moved on and every niche hobby seems to have 4+ mags and none has any dominant power. It simply isn't efficient for some businesses to try and support that many mags. There are cheaper and easier ways of reaching similar audiences these days.

Edited October 18, 2015 by ruggedpeak

[reevesthecat]

I wouldn't have thought an email to the magazine with a few pics wouldn't cost much.

[grahame]

I wouldn't have thought an email to the magazine with a few pics wouldn't cost much.

Yep, updating magazines and forums with an email is a cheap, quick and easy method of communicating and marketing.

 

I think its absence is more about attitude rather than marketing budget constraints. After all, unless they advertise in the magazine, they are hardly contributing to commercial magazines costs of printing and distribution of any news items.

 

G.

[ruggedpeak]

I wouldn't have thought an email to the magazine with a few pics wouldn't cost much.

 

 

Yep, updating magazines and forums with an email is a cheap, quick and easy method of communicating and marketing.

 

I think its absence is more about attitude rather than marketing budget constraints. After all, unless they advertise in the magazine, they are hardly contributing to commercial magazines costs of printing and distribution of any news items.

 

G.

I disagree. The photos have to be of the correct format and quality for the magazine (i.e. professional studio shots) showing the product in its best light, the copy needs to be written and checked by a PR or marketing person, and each mag may come back with queries or requests etc. So that's potentially 5 or 6 queries or extra requests. It is time consuming and thus costly to do it properly.

 

And Hornby have no control over what is actually published, or if it is published at all. When I had my own business I soon got fed up being asked for samples and copy for magazines who then either never used it or worse took the product and never published anything about it. In my view magazines are nowhere near as effective at promoting products as they pretend.

 

I don't see how this relates to an attitude. There seems to be an underlying assumption that Hornby have to engage with the magazines. They don't. There is no god-given right for mags to be given any material or samples by Hornby or anyone else. Hornby have decided, rightly or wrongly, that they are not part of their marketing mix to the same extent they were previously. Hornby are a business, not a charity to support multi-million pound publishing companies like Warners, Bauer or Key. Nat Southworth has previously stated they have done market research, and I am pretty confident Hornby have a reasonable understanding of what works and what doesn't, and are experimenting to develop this further. And I also suspect, in part from experience of running my own business in another niche sector, that when you have so many magazines, print mags becomes a less efficient and effective form or marketing. SK has already explained the cost of dealing with multiple publications is, and I can tell you it is in fact a complete PITA.

 

I commend Hornby for their approach, it makes a lot of sense when they are still sorting out their supply chain and distribution,  I also note that some mags are allowing their pet contributors to have sly and unfair digs at Hornby. If I was Hornby and found cheaper and more effective ways of reaching customers I'd choose them too. And that's exactly what I did with my business.

[The Stationmaster]

An interesting and varied range of further comments but it is perhaps pertinent to remember that we are where we are and also not to forget where we were.  Most (all?) of Hornby's senior management will have little or no knowledge of the latter as they are new to a company involved in model railway manufacture.  But they come to it with ideas and approaches to customer relations formed by their past experience and where I would think potential customers are likely to be less demanding discerning and where at the expensive end of the market they are more likely to be collectors rather than users (of the product).

 

And it is that latter distinction which has a particular impact in our hobby - we ant to know not just how accurate it is in appearance but how well it works.  The latter can really only come from reviews by experienced people and those people generally are either modellers or modellers working on magazines (be they printed or electronic in format).  Now that might not suit the 'limited supply' situation mentioned by some above because we often have to buy 'sight unseen' as a result of it BUT many of us might still be making that decision on the basis of past experience of that 'manufacturer' including reviews as well as personal comments on sites such as this or at clubs or from friends etc.  Thus regular contact with hobby related magazines can be good for the overall image of a business and that image will translate as reputation which will translate as sales.

 

And it's a two-way street - Hornby is known for its occasional ability to repeat a product exactly the same as it was previously - right down to the painted running number; result poorer sales than changing the running number.  Some of its reps know that from retailers, hobby media will tell them roughly the same.  Message - media contact is two way (and not just in the form of polls!).  And, as  I said previously, I tend to the view that part of the reason for Hornby's current attitude is probably financially based but it is also due to not wholly understanding the market they are dealing with (except on the part of The Engine Shed which, coming back to the thread heading, definitely seems to have got that well & truly sewn up.