Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench

[7TunnelShunter]

I suspect it is a hand coloured photo and whoever did it thought the wagon would be red not taking into account the lettering.

 

Don

 

Hi

 

It is clearly a hand coloured/tinted postcard and whoever did it, for whatever reason, tinted the ?7 plank with 25" GW red but the ?5 plank with 25" GW grey. Either they were looking for some sort of aesthetic, were using up red tint or intriguingly had some reason for tinting the 7 plank red.

 

Certainly odd and to be taken with Sodium Chloride (other salts are available etc.)

 

Best wishes

 

Chris

[Mikkel]

Over the years there have been some interesting discussions about red wagons in coloured postcards on here. Some of the cards have got me excited, but personally I have come to the conclusion that they just can't be trusted.

 

There may well have been som artists who actually did a little research, but others clearly just wanted to produce a pleasing and colourful postcard that would sell well. The last of these three is a particularly prominent example of that, I think! 

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Mikkel

[Regularity]

Interesting that in the second postcard, the vans are grey and the opens red!

[Donw]

Interesting that in the second postcard, the vans are grey and the opens red!

 

That may of course been the case at some point. Assuming the vans were built in greater numbers after the change to grey so grey vans might be more common but the large number of red opens would be more common than the newer grey ones.  The real problem is just when that change over occured and what would be the position at any time.

 

Don

[Compound2632]

That may of course been the case at some point. Assuming the vans were built in greater numbers after the change to grey so grey vans might be more common but the large number of red opens would be more common than the newer grey ones.  

 

Ah but... all three vans are the pre-Iron Mink wood-framed body type, built up to c. 1885. Can I believe the number on the first one, 37490? (Not sure of the last digit.) It fits rather nicely with my previous delvings into Great Western wagon numerology: it looks as though similar types were numbered in blocks; with the first Iron Minks numbered 37608 - 38000 (and then 47001 upwards), I have a theory that the run of numbers 37001 - 37607 was occupied by these wood-framed vans. This was based on two known numbers, 37023 and 37517, to which I can now add a third!

 

The ratio of the different types of open is also interesting, with 4-plank wagons in the majority. The 5-plank O4 with sheet rail has the cast number and G.W.R plates on the bottom plank, as one expects given its 1901 - 1904 building date; as might just possibly the 4-plank next after the first van. I good sharp print of the photo from which this postcard was produced would be fascinating!

Edited September 17, 2018 by Compound2632

[Mikkel]

The ratio of the different types of open is also interesting, with 4-plank wagons in the majority. The 5-plank O4 with sheet rail has the cast number and G.W.R plates on the bottom plank, as one expects given its 1901 - 1904 building date; as might just possibly the 4-plank next after the first van. I good sharp print of the photo from which this postcard was produced would be fascinating!

Ebay black and white version here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Badminton-Railway-Station-Photo-Hullavington-Chipping-Sodbury-GWR-3-/262381178800. I have that print in a removal box somewhere (most likely bottom of the pile!) as I intend to model the train at some point.

 

Meanwhile, a "Cordon" gas tank wagon in GWR red/brown at Pencanze in 1909

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by Mikkel

[Compound2632]

Ebay black and white version here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Badminton-Railway-Station-Photo-Hullavington-Chipping-Sodbury-GWR-3-/262381178800. I have that print in a removal box somewhere (most likely bottom of the pile!) as I intend to model the train at some point.

 

 

 

37486. And definitely plates on that 4-plank wagon.

[Regularity]

Meanwhile, a "Cordon" gas tank wagon in GWR red/brown at Pencanze in 1909

 

The coach cream is very white, and the chocolate very red: almost Caledonian in style. Edited September 18, 2018 by Regularity

[bgman]

Ebay black and white version here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Badminton-Railway-Station-Photo-Hullavington-Chipping-Sodbury-GWR-3-/262381178800. I have that print in a removal box somewhere (most likely bottom of the pile!) as I intend to model the train at some point.

 

Meanwhile, a "Cordon" gas tank wagon in GWR red/brown at Pencanze in 1909

 

pencanze 1909.jpg

 

 

That'll be all the salty sea air that will !

 

R.Usty

[Brassey]

The coach cream is very white, and the chocolate very red: almost Caledonian in style.

 

The upper colour in early time (pre 1908) was supposedly white but varnishing and weathering rendered it more cream.  Probably nothing like the custard of later years.  

[Buhar]

Sorry Mikkel,

Posted in the wrong thread. Should have been in with the D299 stuff.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Buhar

[wagonman]

Over the years there have been some interesting discussions about red wagons in coloured postcards on here. Some of the cards have got me excited, but personally I have come to the conclusion that they just can't be trusted.

 

There may well have been som artists who actually did a little research, but others clearly just wanted to produce a pleasing and colourful postcard that would sell well. The last of these three is a particularly prominent example of that, I think! 

 

001.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

The first photo shows Pictors Siding, or part of it, with a cut of stone wagons. Pictor & Sons was one of the companies that merged into Bath Stone Firms at the very end of 1887, so these wagons would have been in BSF livery – which was 'stone colour'. Not red.

 

The postcards were coloured by rooms full of poorly paid ladies who were expected to work quickly rather than accurately so these can never be taken as a record of the period.

Edited September 18, 2018 by wagonman

[Penlan]

............. at Pencanze in 1909

PenZanCe (Penzance) 

[Penlan]

The 'Phoenix' wagon at Badminton, The Phoenix Co., is in Ian Popes book on PO's in the Forest of Dean, page 83 (ISBN 1 899889 09 4) I believe, though I don't have a copy of this book.  If it's a typical Gloucester photo, then a photo date may help to date the picture.

[Penrhos1920]

Ah but... all three vans are the pre-Iron Mink wood-framed body type, built up to c. 1885. Can I believe the number on the first one, 37490? (Not sure of the last digit.) It fits rather nicely with my previous delvings into Great Western wagon numerology: it looks as though similar types were numbered in blocks; with the first Iron Minks numbered 37608 - 38000 (and then 47001 upwards), I have a theory that the run of numbers 37001 - 37607 was occupied by these wood-framed vans. This was based on two known numbers, 37023 and 37517, to which I can now add a third!

 

The ratio of the different types of open is also interesting, with 4-plank wagons in the majority. The 5-plank O4 with sheet rail has the cast number and G.W.R plates on the bottom plank, as one expects given its 1901 - 1904 building date; as might just possibly the 4-plank next after the first van. I good sharp print of the photo from which this postcard was produced would be fascinating!

You can add 35415 to your list of known numbers. See this photo: https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/photograph-of-wagons-in-the-yard-taken-by-an-official-london-north-picture-id90748382

[Compound2632]

You can add 35415 to your list of known numbers. See this photo: https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/photograph-of-wagons-in-the-yard-taken-by-an-official-london-north-picture-id90748382

 

Thanks, already got that one from that photo! Good cop, nevertheless.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Compound2632

[Dave John]

Interesting pics. 

 

I would agree with taking the colours in tinted postcards with a lot of salt, my own observations indicate they are very hit and miss. 

 

Now the pic of Launceston triggered what is a long running thought in my head. Next to the cattle wagons is what appears to me to be a peaked roof lime wagon. GWR experts will probably identify it accurately, but all the pre grouping companies had similar wagons, essentially an  open wagon with a peaked roof. The fact that it is next to the cattle wagons might indicate that the lime it contains is intended for use as a limewash disinfectant and therefore that is a sensible place to put it. 

 

Now, lime was used extensively ( still is really ) in the Victorian era for washes , in construction , soap making and a whole variety of industrial processes. The Caledonian had 40 to D25, I'm sure the numbers for the GWR are available. Which makes me wonder how much bagged lime was carried in ordinary vans rather than purpose built lime wagons. 

 

Sorry to wander off with odd thoughts Mikkel, but it is one on those historical things that I can't explain well. I have worked with quicklime on a few projects, it is vicious stuff. Maybe I'm completely wrong, but the number of purpose built lime wagons seems to be very low for the amount of the stuff that must have been transported across the railway network as a whole. 

 

Anyway any light shed on the subject ( oh limelight) would be welcome. 

[Graham456]

Maybe the reason for the lack of lime wagons is due to it being made on site? Down in Somerset their are lime kilns by the hundred, their are three of them in my little hamlet of Seven Ash, it being a sandstone region (quantocks exmoor) and lime or quicklime being corrosive stuff is safer to transport as stone than as lime, which would just need a open 5plk wagon

[Donw]

Maybe the reason for the lack of lime wagons is due to it being made on site? Down in Somerset their are lime kilns by the hundred, their are three of them in my little hamlet of Seven Ash, it being a sandstone region (quantocks exmoor) and lime or quicklime being corrosive stuff is safer to transport as stone than as lime, which would just need a open 5plk wagon

 

I very much agree that wherever there was Limestone you would find Lime Kilns and crushed limestone was used for spreading on fields. However Lime Kilns are fairly big generally so I am less convinced about it being burnt on site. Are you suggesting that say a farme would burn lime for his own use or that a local works would recieve stone by rail and burn it for local distribution?

 

Don

[Rail-Online]

............ Next to the cattle wagons is what appears to me to be a peaked roof lime wagon. GWR experts will probably identify it accurately, but all the pre grouping companies had similar wagons, essentially an  open wagon with a peaked roof. The................

 

 

I think it is more likely to be a GWR open with a sheet bar, a wagon sheet has then been pulled tight over the wagon giving the appearance of a peaked roof wagon (especially once the card is crudely tinted)

 

Tony

[mclong]

I think it is more likely to be a GWR open with a sheet bar, a wagon sheet has then been pulled tight over the wagon giving the appearance of a peaked roof wagon (especially once the card is crudely tinted)

 

Tony

 

The photo of Launceston is of the LSWR station , virtually every wagon and coach belongs to that company. The peaked roof next to the cattle wagons is a hut built over the buffer stops.

[Graham456]

I very much agree that wherever there was Limestone you would find Lime Kilns and crushed limestone was used for spreading on fields. However Lime Kilns are fairly big generally so I am less convinced about it being burnt on site. Are you suggesting that say a farme would burn lime for his own use or that a local works would recieve stone by rail and burn it for local distribution?

 

Don

No No I did not say where you find limestone you will find lime kilns totally the reverse.of course lime mortar was still need in areas of limestone so there are some there as well but it will not be needed on the fields

Both in bromham in Wiltshire where I come from and down in Somerset where I now live which are sandstone areas poor in lime on the fields,you will find lime kilns the stone was imported from limestone areas like the mendips or South Wales through watchet near where I currently live and burnt in kilns close to the feilds where it was to be used to be burnt

As stated lime stone is safe to transport linemorter/quick lime being a alkaline burns so is not safe to transport which its use as a cattle van disinfect was banned

As for kilns being large? You could fit one in a shed if you needed to say eight by twelve if you google street view for Lynmouth next to the cable car lift there are three in a row taking less room than a house on the sea front, conveniently for lime stone brought in as ships ballest along with the coal from Wales

 

Remember the use of lime way predates railways by at least a thousand years and most of these lime kilns pre date railways lime kilns only dropped out of use slowly when transportation made it posable to have factory's

Edited September 19, 2018 by Graham456

[Worsdell forever]

No No I did not say where you find limestone you will find lime kilns totally the reverse.of course lime mortar was still need in areas of limestone so there are some there as well but it will not be needed on the fields

Both in bromham in Wiltshire where I come from and down in Somerset where I now live which are sandstone areas poor in lime on the fields,you will find lime kilns the stone was imported from limestone areas like the mendips or South Wales through watchet near where I currently live and burnt in kilns close to the feilds where it was to be used to be burnt

As stated lime stone is safe to transport linemorter/quick lime being a alkaline burns so is not safe to transport which its use as a cattle van disinfect was banned

As for kilns being large? You could fit one in a shed if you needed to say eight by twelve if you google street view for Lynmouth next to the cable car lift there are three in a row taking less room than a house on the sea front, conveniently for lime stone brought in as ships ballest along with the coal from Wales

 

Remember the use of lime way predates railways by at least a thousand years and most of these lime kilns pre date railways lime kilns only dropped out of use slowly when transportation made it posable to have factory's

 

There's no lime on this side (North) of the NY Moors and no kilns, My grandad told me once that they collected burnt lime from Kettleness station and they wouldn't drop the load until the customer was there to take it away, indicating (he also told me) that it was powdered ready to use, it is of course very 'delicate', there were covered cells for lime to protect it. https://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/02/54/74/2547421_42eabcc7.jpg

 

There was limestone moved across the moors from Pickering to the blast furnaces at Middlesbrough via Grosmont and Battersby, this was in block trains of open wagons.

[wagonman]

No No I did not say where you find limestone you will find lime kilns totally the reverse.of course lime mortar was still need in areas of limestone so there are some there as well but it will not be needed on the fields

Both in bromham in Wiltshire where I come from and down in Somerset where I now live which are sandstone areas poor in lime on the fields,you will find lime kilns the stone was imported from limestone areas like the mendips or South Wales through watchet near where I currently live and burnt in kilns close to the feilds where it was to be used to be burnt

As stated lime stone is safe to transport linemorter/quick lime being a alkaline burns so is not safe to transport which its use as a cattle van disinfect was banned

As for kilns being large? You could fit one in a shed if you needed to say eight by twelve if you google street view for Lynmouth next to the cable car lift there are three in a row taking less room than a house on the sea front, conveniently for lime stone brought in as ships ballest along with the coal from Wales

 

Remember the use of lime way predates railways by at least a thousand years and most of these lime kilns pre date railways lime kilns only dropped out of use slowly when transportation made it posable to have factory's

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This answer raises a couple of questions in my mind, the first being: what cargo was exported from Watchet that required limestone to be brought back in lieu of ballast. Was it iron ore perhaps, but that trade had ceased before 1900.

 

The other point was more an observation. You don't use quicklime to make mortar, or limewash for that matter, as the reaction when water is added is strongly exothermic – in layman's terms, it gets bloody hot. What is produced is slaked lime which is inert and safe to handle. 

 

I definitely agree with you about the long history of lime use though! The Egyptians used it for plastering walls 6000 years ago, while the Romans used lime mortar for building work. The Roman architect and writer Vitruvius gave the recipe we still use today.

Edited September 19, 2018 by wagonman

[Graham456]

No lime kilns north of the Yorkshire moors ? Go and have a look at this link if it works http://www.brocross.com/industrial%20history/limekilns.htm

You should find all the ones you don't think exist, and were used to put the stones of that station in the picture together