Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench

[teaky]

Since lime and Exmoor have been mentioned...

 

At Heddon's Mouth in North Devon there is an old lime kiln where limestone and coal were brought in by boat from south Wales and the processed lime carted inland.

[Graham456]

This answer raises a couple of questions in my mind, the first being: what cargo was exported from Watchet that required limestone to be brought back in lieu of ballast. Was it iron ore perhaps, but that trade had ceased before 1900.

The other point was more an observation. You don't use quicklime to make mortar, or limewash for that matter, as the reaction when water is added is strongly exothermic – in layman's terms, it gets bloody hot. What is produced is slaked lime which is inert and safe to handle

I definitely agree with you about the long history of lime use though! The Egyptians used it for plastering walls 6000 years ago, while the Romans used lime mortar for building work. The Roman architect and writer Vitruvius gave the recipe we still use today.

Being currantly in Mauritius I am a bit far away to check but Ballest on ships was stones to keep the ship upright. Now why carry ordinary stone from one port to another if you can carry a paying limestone as Ballest

 

I might have worded it wrong but you do use limestone to make lime mortar as you do for quicklime,limewash,and in my previous life working in the restoration and conservation industry gloves had to be worn when useing lime mortar due to its alkaline nature being far from inert

Here is a link to the coshh data sheet of your "inert" substance https://www.mkmbs.co.uk/Root/Documents/B016156.COSHHData.pdf

Edited September 19, 2018 by Graham456

[wagonman]

Being currantly in Mauritius I am a bit far away to check but Ballest on ships was stones to keep the ship upright. Now why carry ordinary stone from one port to another if you can carry a paying limestone as Ballest

 

I might have worded it wrong but you do use limestone to make lime mortar as you do for quicklime,limewash,and in my previous life working in the restoration and conservation industry gloves had to be worn when useing lime mortar due to its alkaline nature being far from inert

Here is a link to the coshh data sheet of your "inert" substance https://www.mkmbs.co.uk/Root/Documents/B016156.COSHHData.pdf

 

 

Just because it's chemically 'inert' doesn't mean it won't take your skin off! Or indeed rot the hooves of cattle...

 

As for ship's ballast, obviously it's better to have a paying cargo if available – ships from my local ports in north Norfolk that carried grain to Rotterdam came back loaded with pantiles which is why just about every roof in the area is covered in them, despite this being a major source of roofing thatch. Unfortunately the collier brigs coming down from the Tyne and Wear ports didn't usually find a return cargo so sailed back in ballast – tons of flint usually. I was just curious to know what the ships carried on their outward leg from Watchet. I assumed iron ore, but may be wrong. I'm open to correction.

 

My village had a limekiln, preserved only in place names alas. It actually used chalk rather than lime but the chemistry is the same. I presume it was a typical Norfolk kiln with the sunken bowl and circular chamber for access to the firing holes, like the one I was lucky enough to visit at Litcham. Your link takes you there.

[Dave John]

Hmm, sorry to have opened a bit of a can of worms Mikkel. 

 

Looking again at the postcard it might be a sheeted wagon or indeed a shed. Odd place to build a shed though. 

 

Some good comments on quicklime and limestone. I can see that if needed for local rural use then local limekilns were probably the solution. I however model urban Edwardian Glasgow and the amount used particularly in construction was considerable. 

 

Of course I may be looking at the wrong sort of transport. Perhaps the reason for the relatively low numbers of specialist lime wagons was that many limekilns were close to canal or seaports and that the major method of transport was barge or ship. Indeed there is a woodcut showing such a kiln at Dumbarton here ;

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lime_kiln

 

I will do a bit more research. 

[wagonman]

The photo of Launceston is of the LSWR station , virtually every wagon and coach belongs to that company. The peaked roof next to the cattle wagons is a hut built over the buffer stops.

 

 

I don't think so – it's a sheeted open wagon as you can see the light reflected off the sloping face of the RH axlebox, just like all the other wagons.

[mclong]

I don't think so – it's a sheeted open wagon as you can see the light reflected off the sloping face of the RH axlebox, just like all the other wagons.

 

Definitely a building as shown on 1906 25in Ordnance Survey map  https://maps.nls.uk/view/105992296    Enlargement of black and white version.

Edited September 19, 2018 by mclong

[Graham456]

I tell you what anyone who thinks railway Modeling is all about the trains is so wrong.

I look forward to Dave jones results of I'll do a bit more research! And all because someone noted there not many lime wagons around.

The interesting picture of the cattle vans pre the banning of lime wash at launcston is intrestingnot just for the weathering on the cattle vans, but also the sheeting over round ended open being unloaded whilst still sheeted,

You never know what's comeing up next with this railway Modeling lark

[Penlan]

Any idea which company the Tarpaulin belongs to ( D R or L R ?). 

I can't see any likely candidates in the RCH list of companies, if it's railway.

Edited September 20, 2018 by Penlan

[Regularity]

Any idea which company the Tarpaulin belongs to ( D R or L R ?). 

I can't see any likely candidates in the RCH list of companies, if it's railway.

I spent ages trying to work that out before I cottoned on to the fact that the wagon door is open, and the tarpaulin is folded and draping, whilst catching the light to make an L appear as a D.

I strongly suspect that we can’t see the SW in the middle, as this is an LSWR wagon in an LSWR goods yard.

It’s a bit like looking at some “random” black splodges on white paper and gradually seeing a high-contrast picture of a Dalmatian in the snow...

[Anotheran]

Any idea which company the Tarpaulin belongs to ( D R or L R ?). 

I can't see any likely candidates in the RCH list of companies, if it's railway.

 

I would assume that the L and R are the beginning and end of LSWR, which is what is also on the cattle trucks.

Kind regards, Neil

 

 

Edit: Simon got there first while I was typing!

Edited September 20, 2018 by Anotheran

[Penlan]

Thank you.

[MikeOxon]

And with the 25" G W initials too!

 

Too be taken with a very small quantity of sodium chloride, I think.

I linked to another postcard showing a red body and large GW, in a post at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/125585-the-brown-the-red-and-the-grey/&do=findComment&comment=2831285

 

I suppose it shows that artists at that time and place thought red was an appropriate colour for wagons.

 

I've seen the uncoloured version of this photo as well, where the wagon looks very pale in colour - possibly the effect of China Clay?

 

Mike

[Donw]

There is some misunderstanding of the situation in Watchet while boats may have used limestone ballast, Watchet was noted for Lime production with Kilns along the coast using limestone from the Blue Lias layers and coal brought across from South Wales in Ketches. The hill south of Watchet is a limstone ridge with some clay overlay. The is plenty of evidence in the form of Limestone walling in the area. Along three sides of our garden is a boundary formed of bank of limestones covered in earth with a hedge planted on it.

 

While I can see that a farmer using crushed limstone on his fields might burn some for lime. I am dubious of the economics of transporting limestone and fuel such as coal to produce lime as opposed to bringing in lime from outside. In literature there are references to the problems that arose from transporting lime on canals and railways where the lime was covered with tarpaulins any holes where rain could get through was known to cause fires. The is also confirmation in the above posts of lime being collected at stations.

The Lime used for making mortar was refferred to by some as Burnt Lime I was assured by Harry who had been the Brickie on the Lutwyche Estate on the Wenlock Edge that Burn Lime was much better than Hydrated Lime for making mortar. The cottage we lived in was Limestone with Brick quoins as the limestones from the Edge were not easy to cut to shape. There were old beams in the cottage which were reputed to be old ships beams as these were often used as a ballast load in Severn Trows coming up river to Ironbridge/ Coalbrookdale.

 

There was also a regular traffic from Presthope of limestone headed for Round Oak Works in the Black Country in wagons lettered for Earl of Dudley.

 

Don

[Mikkel]

Modelling has started again after the move from house to flat. Most of my time has been spent downsizing the layouts, but more on that later.

 

 

 

Meanwhile, the Oxford Dean Goods conversion is back on the workbench. I haven’t touched it for a year, so it’s about time. In the meantime,  Stephen has started a similar conversion, which I’m following with much interest. My own recent work has focused on the cab area. A floor and interior splashers were built up.

 

 

 

A cut-out was required in order to clear the motor when fitting the body.

 

 

 

The cab detail is a bit quick and dirty. I found a backhead in the spares box, spruced it up a bit and moved it 0.5 mms forward to clear the motor. It’s too low, but don’t tell anyone. The raised floor section in the right hand side of the cab is a feature on 2516 at Steam, but I’m not sure if it was there in the 1900s? According to Martin Finney, cab seats were a later feature so I didn’t fit any.

 

 

 

Brassmasters have some lovely Finney fittings for the cab, but I wanted to save my pennies, so used the Oxford lever and springs. They are somewhat crude, so a bit of detailing was done to improve them.

 

 

 

The cab side beading was made from 5 thou strips, cut on my Portrait and curved gently with my warm and healing fingers. Stuck down with Limonene – my new best friend - and secured by rolling a brush handle against it.

 

 

 

Further beading and handrails were made from wire. With luck I can mask or scrape them during painting, leaving a brass/steel look, like Ian has done on his superb 2mm coaches.

 

 

 

The cab roof was built up with four laminated layers, here are the first two (10 + 5 thou).

 

 

 

And the uppermost two (2 x 5 thou). 

 

 

 

The join between cab and boiler was also built up piecemeal, very close to the spectacles as per my prototype. 

 

 

 

I'm debating with myself whether the cab has the right 1900s look. Not sure. It doesn't help that we're so used to seeing the flatter roof profile of later years.

 

 

 

Ah well, I’m not changing it now. It’s time to move on. I was surprised though that, even with a conservative estimate, I only seem to have used some 22 hours on this project so far, including trial and error.

 

Edited December 9, 2018 by Mikkel

[Dave John]

Excellent work there Mikkel. 

[Compound2632]

In the meantime,  Stephen has started a similar conversion, which I’m following with much interest. 

 

Started's the word...

 

I'd just like to emphasise that my lack of progress over the last three months has nothing to do with any problem with the project or decline in enthusiasm but everything to do with the demands of my new career as a secondary school teacher...

[bgman]

Ironically I was wondering how you were coping with the move and look what happens !

 

Extremely good modelling with the Dean Goods Mikkel, it can be an absolute minefield when you start to look at all of the variations ( why would I know that ? ).

One of the best reference books has to be Jeremy Clements book which I think you may have ? 

I won't show you the amount of photographs I have collected that sit on my MacBook !

 

I feel that the Silhouette has come to the fore once again and is worth its weight when applied to what we model, as shown here with your work. Blatant question coming...Would you have attempted this without the Silhouette ?

 

Anyway, its looking mighty fine and I for one look forward to your next instalment ( I would say that wouldn't I ).

 

All the very best for now and hope you and your family have settled into your new abode.

 

G 

[Northroader]

Glad to hear you’re settled in enough to pick up some modelling. Really good craftsmanship on the loco.

[bgman]

Mikkel,

 

I hope you don't mind the invasion of this quick vid to show part of mine in 7mm....

 

 

I'm hoping that the next instalment will show it as a running loco with all its fittings as I'm about 90% there now, I have to say its not been without it's problems !!!

 

Getting there !

 

G

[Ian Smith]

Mikkel,

 

I hope you don't mind the invasion of this quick vid to show part of mine in 7mm....

 

 

I'm hoping that the next instalment will show it as a running loco with all its fittings as I'm about 90% there now, I have to say its not been without it's problems !!!

 

Getting there !

 

G

 

It looks like one of the problems is that the wheels aren't big enough to reach the rails !!  

Ian

[bgman]

It looks like one of the problems is that the wheels aren't big enough to reach the rails !!  

Ian

 

 

Thanks Ian, well observed ! 

I am waiting for a centre wheel and axle to drop off a Dean Single, that should go someway to sorting out the gap !!!

 

G

Edited December 9, 2018 by bgman

[Silver Sidelines]

Hello Mikkel

 

What a super update.

 

Ah well, I’m not changing it now. It’s time to move on. I was surprised though that, even with a conservative estimate, I only seem to have used some 22 hours on this project so far, including trial and error.

22hr - a couple of days really, what's that at the minimum wage? Fascinated that you keep tabs on hours spent. Sometimes it is best not to know. I have spread sheets on all manner of interesting things - how many eggs each of our hens has laid for example.

 

Cheers Ray

[Mikkel]

Thanks everyone for the kind comments and buttons 
 

One of the best reference books has to be Jeremy Clements book which I think you may have ? 
I won't show you the amount of photographs I have collected that sit on my MacBook !

 
Yes I have the Clements book, there was this chap called bgman who recommended it to me quite some time ago    I agree it is very useful and has contributed to my small collection of roundtopped Dean Goods pics.
 

Blatant question coming...Would you have attempted this without the Silhouette ?

 
Good question. In this particular case I would probably just have done it differently, by modifying the Mainline Dean Goods body in the time honoured way, and then fitting the Oxford chassis underneath. Probably a smarter solution anyway 
 
But I agree that the Silhouette spurs you on. It has given me courage to attempt an 1813 with side tanks for my next project. Jim Champ and I have been doing a little research...
 

 
 

Glad to hear you’re settled in enough to pick up some modelling. Really good craftsmanship on the loco.

 

Nicely settled in and well equipped with takeaway boxes for organising the projects, thanks to your suggestion  (Top tip: Thai works just as well as Chinese).

 

[Mikkel]

Mikkel,

 

I hope you don't mind the invasion of this quick vid to show part of mine in 7mm....

 

 

I'm hoping that the next instalment will show it as a running loco with all its fittings as I'm about 90% there now, I have to say its not been without it's problems !!!

 

Getting there !

 

G

 

That looks and sounds very smooth. But the wagon in the background seems to have a problem: Cast plates and grey livery? Has it got the flu? 

 

 

Hello Mikkel

 

What a super update.

 

 

22hr - a couple of days really, what's that at the minimum wage? Fascinated that you keep tabs on hours spent. Sometimes it is best not to know. I have spread sheets on all manner of interesting things - how many eggs each of our hens has laid for example.

 

Cheers Ray

 

Thanks Ray. I've never kept track of modelling time before, but thought it would be interesting to try. It's something we don't seem to talk much about in the modelling community. I'm a slow modeller and 22 hours is arguably a lot, especially for a somewhat irrational RTR conversion like this one. But on the other hand, 22 hours is from sunrise to sunrise 

[bgman]

That looks and sounds very smooth. But the wagon in the background seems to have a problem: Cast plates and grey livery? Has it got the flu? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Very observant !

 

Its been in the coal yard and got a bit grubby, thats my excuse anyway.

 

I'm fairly pleased with the chassis, my first 7mm build, so thank you for your positive comment.

 

R.E.D.Plank