Rapido/Locomotion Models GNR Stirling Single

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... just gone and bought a Hornby GNR N2 to go with my Atlantic so maybe I could compare the wheelbase on there to the Single as it goes round 2nd radius according to the box

And you will find they are very similar. This was the path taken on the EM specimen that I knew. The builder had made a successful Ivatt N1 (same wheelbase as N2, 7'3"+9'+7'6") so why not the Stirling single in 0-6-2 format, 6'6"+7'9"+8'8". But this of course to run on 36" minimum radius as was usual in EM.

[PaulRhB]

But as the Hornby N2 proves it works in OO too, probably because of the extra couple of mm clearance to play with.

Edited April 15, 2015 by PaulRhB

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Quite so, the OO gauge compromise, and especially if a slightly narrower than normal tyre is employed - which will help appearance too - provides the 'wiggle room' necessary for set track radii. But against that, the bogie and driver splashers on the Single are awfully close fitting, and the appearance of these is crucial to the look of the model. It will be interesting to see how Rapido tackle it for what has to be a reliable factory assembled product rather than a hand crafted model by a very skilled individual.

 

Part of my motivation for placing an order is to see the why, how and what of the chosen solution...

[iamjamie]

Part of my motivation for placing an order is to see the why, how and what of the chosen solution...

 

Me too! It's a welcome treat that Rapido are so open about their process. Sometime's I think that the process can be a lot more interesting that the final product (I'm a discovery channel "How It's Made" addict by the way!). 

 

Personally, designing something for an industrial process like this is just as interesting to me as someone building a loco from scratch. Even modellers who admit that RTR isn't their thing can enjoy following the progress of this, even if they don't buy it!

[Guest spet0114]

Indeed,do some of us need to see the nail marks in Jason's flesh before we buy ? Are we treating Rapido in the same way as some members rounded sceptically on DJM several months ago ? Seems it's the usual British way of dealing with innovation and success.Do we still need to be convinced the world isn't flat ? Healthy discussion is one thing.Scepticism is quite another.The ball is firmly in Jason's court.Let him and Bill get on with it as they and Locomotion see fit. I see our part in the game as an enthusiastic audience,giving all the help we can.

   

     Did any of us ever believe we'd have a model of Number 1 in preparation for r-t-r ?

 

One point, that might be getting overlooked here is that the NRM and subsequently Locomotion, have invested considerable time and effort into developing their 'National Collection In Miniature' brand which has come to be synonymous with high quality models. Would they willingly risk this reputation by partnering with a company they didn't believe could maintain or improve these standards?  I think not. 

 

Cheers

Adrian

[Ozexpatriate]

Did any of us ever believe we'd have a model of Number 1 in preparation for r-t-r ?

But of course! It was a matter of time for that one. 

 

Or it was that silver bell from the Polar Express, or Snow White's wishing well or a vial of Felix Felicis that did the trick?

 

I'm glad it's to be done now rather than by Tri-ang in 1961 with all the daylight necessary for first radius curves.

 

Edited April 15, 2015 by Ozexpatriate

[dibber25]

Indeed,do some of us need to see the nail marks in Jason's flesh before we buy ? Are we treating Rapido in the same way as some members rounded sceptically on DJM several months ago ? Seems it's the usual British way of dealing with innovation and success.Do we still need to be convinced the world isn't flat ? Healthy discussion is one thing.Scepticism is quite another.The ball is firmly in Jason's court.Let him and Bill get on with it as they and Locomotion see fit. I see our part in the game as an enthusiastic audience,giving all the help we can.

   

     Did any of us ever believe we'd have a model of Number 1 in preparation for r-t-r ?

Leaving aside the bad choice of metaphor in the first sentence, I can tell you that Bill told me its nowhere near as difficult to plan out the mechanism for No. 1 as it has been for the Budd RDC, which has two underfloor motors in the spaces occupied by the diesel engines on the real units. 

CHRIS LEIGH

[unclebobkt]

 ... so maybe I could compare the wheelbase on there to the Single as it goes round 2nd radius according to the box

 

      Please excuse my ignorance but in the above posting  what is meant by 'Second radius.'?

  Yes - I realise that it's a way of measuring curves, but in terms of so many inches radius means how much?

            

[Guest spet0114]

      Please excuse my ignorance but in the above posting  what is meant by 'Second radius.'?

  Yes - I realise that it's a way of measuring curves, but in terms of so many inches radius means how much?

            

Second radius is 438 mm.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

In the context of OO it is 'second radius in what is the de-facto standard for the OO set track systems'.  Measured at track centreline, 438mm radius.

[Thom]

      Please excuse my ignorance but in the above posting  what is meant by 'Second radius.'?

  Yes - I realise that it's a way of measuring curves, but in terms of so many inches radius means how much?

            

To answer your question, second radius is 17 1/4".

[jjb1970]

Rapido are one of the few manufacturers other than the high end brass outfits that I would trust to do this model to a high standard and overcome all of the design challenges based on their past performance. Now that is clearly a leap of faith and it is 100% correct to say that we will not know whether the model is any good until the production examples are released but based on their history of producing models of an exceptional quality for the North American market I have to say no other supplier in the UK RTR sector would give me the sort of confidence I have that Rapido will do this right. I may end up with egg all over my face in a few months after making this post, oh dear.......

[unclebobkt]

To answer your question, second radius is 17 1/4".

 

      Bestest thanks to the three of you who were kind enough to answer my question.

  But isn't 17 1/4". a bit tight?  I thought that 24" is the generally accepted MINIMUM radius for 00 gauge?

     

[Budgie]

Yes, it is a bit tight, and first radius is even tighter. But it goes back to the old Tri-ang Railways Super 4 track, which was designed when model railways were "toy trains". If you don't like second radius, there's always third and fourth radii, or you can lay your own with flexible track, perhaps using Tracksetta templates to help you keep a consistent curve.

[Guest spet0114]

Yes, it is a bit tight, and first radius is even tighter.

 

And (from memory) Trix TTR used to go even tighter still!!

[davknigh]

      Bestest thanks to the three of you who were kind enough to answer my question.

  But isn't 17 1/4". a bit tight?  I thought that 24" is the generally accepted MINIMUM radius for 00 gauge?

     

There's a big difference between what will work and what looks any good. The wider the better is the general rule of thumb.

 

Cheers,

 

David

[BR60103]

Lionel O gauge (doing business as O27) was 13.5" radius -- over the outside of the sleepers, apparently.

And Hornby O has "one foot radius".

[JSpencer]

And (from memory) Trix TTR used to go even tighter still!!

And I confirm the 1980s and 1990s Hornby + Lima + Mainline could run on it. I had TTR track as a kid running modern (by those then standards) rolling stock.

[AMJ]

Did I see a pre production version in the cabinet at Shildon today or was it a kit built loco?

[teaky]

Did I see a pre production version in the cabinet at Shildon today or was it a kit built loco?

Was it painted?

 

The one from post #163 perhaps?

Edited May 4, 2015 by teaky

[Gerald Henriksen]

Did I see a pre production version in the cabinet at Shildon today or was it a kit built loco?

 

Far too early for a pre production sample.  They only just scanned it, it will take time to convert the scan into CAD drawings, and then merge that with other other information they will have researched and/or measured.

 

Guesswork (things can change depending on how busy the factory is) but your are looking at 45 to 60 days for the first CAD, and maybe another 2 months or more from CAD to first test shots, later followed by the pre-production sample.

 

So say another 3 months (or more) for the first samples of the Single.

[JSpencer]

Far too early for a pre production sample.  They only just scanned it, it will take time to convert the scan into CAD drawings, and then merge that with other other information they will have researched and/or measured.

 

Guesswork (things can change depending on how busy the factory is) but your are looking at 45 to 60 days for the first CAD, and maybe another 2 months or more from CAD to first test shots, later followed by the pre-production sample.

 

So say another 3 months (or more) for the first samples of the Single.

I would vive it longer than that, say end of the year for the first sample of web are lucky.

[Gerald Henriksen]

I would vive it longer than that, say end of the year for the first sample of web are lucky.

 

For a pre-production sample probably, but not necessarily for the first test shots.

 

All anyone needs to to is look at the APT-E threads, look at the dates various things happen, and calculate accordingly.  **** BUT, make sure to allow for the unexpected to occur and foul up and plans Rapido has, just in case ***

[PaulR]

I guess customers opinion doesn't matter then ?

 

 

I'm sorry but I don't like tender drive models... British or European drive ancestry. I don't like having to deal with lost traction tyres, cardan shafts which grate on the body side of models on sharp corners (or can break..or separate or both). The fact the cardan shaft on some European models revolves visibly whilst it occupies a large part of the footplate is not good... The Stirling single is a large open cab.. How will it be hidden ?- as a regulator handle or a firing shovel ?.. It needs to be strong as its hi-torque.. So a minuscule one hidden beneath the footplate could be a weak point ?...

 

Let's not look at all things German with rosy eyes, things go wrong there too, sure the cardan shaft is nice, the models are detailed and the motor used is very sweet.. But loco drive and tender drive are just not the same..no matter how nice you wrap the burger.. It'll never be a steak.

 

I had a derailment once where the loco body went sideways.. The motor (in the tender continued).. As did the shaft.. Which pushed the loco out, broke off the shaft and proceeded to continue its merry way..hardly a nice outcome as other bits of it started separating in the situation that continued. The spare shaft took an age to acquire (and the cost) yet was a standard off the shelf part used in many others in the same range, not a niche limited edition.

 

Let's consider Hornbys railroad range.. Sure it's cheaper tender drive, so why has their market research led them to conclude making them loco drive is the way forwards.. Considering so many 9F's /Black 5s etc are bought and swapped for their loco drive chassis's.. I guess there must be something about it that makes them worthwhile for modellers to upgrade their older tender drive models.

 

I will say roco locos have never been bad for sticking driving wheels even without the shaft .. But neither have Piko ones for that matter.. So if we're cheapening up and the customer doesn't matter.. Why not put plastic rods on it too ?

 

I'm sorry I'm only a customer, I'm not in the trade and suggestions of spending £200 on what is a niche model to find it could be driven in a manner many of us hoped was confined to history and the budget corner of ebay is one that has considered me to hold off placing an order until this ones cleared up.

Again I know this post means I'm at odds with the establishment and the old boys network, but I'm standing by my opinions on this one, I really hope this is loco drive and disappointed if it isn't..

 

 

Tender drive just isn't cricket... Charles Darwins theories applied to the last 30 years of UK model railways has proved that... If it's so good where are they ?

I model pre-grouping and use Hollywood Foundry's tender drive units. I get all wheel drive and big motors in and not a Cardan shaft in sight!

[JSpencer]

To be honest, I expect most people will want the Rapido Stirling to be loco drive with the motor in the loco. That should not be headache in this day and age.