Les1952 Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 This may be a newbie asking a silly question but here goes anyway. I run sound-fitted steam locos on an exhibition layout and find that if I get the loco running up to speed and cut in the sound shortly before the loco appears in view the chuffing starts up already synchronised to the rotation of the wheels. However any diesel I've seen seems to want to start up its engine and build up to the speed even if said diesel is already moving. Frankly a loco starting its engine just offstage then moving the short distance out of the fiddle yard onto the layout to me totally destroys the effect of having the sound in the first place. The fiddle yard can't represent some distance down the line if it is obvious the diesel is sitting a couple of inches offscene. The question is- is it possible for this loco coming in from offstage to cut the sound in with the engine running matched to how the loco is moving - or is it beyond the ability of the chip to be programmed thus? Les Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamperman36 Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 Some diesel sound chips can be used this way you will have to try them out to see which ones work which way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted May 31, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 31, 2015 most, if not all diesel sound chips will cut in at the correct 'thrash' at whatever speed you are doing when you turn on the sound, you dont have to start up everytime Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 I'm not sure that the original premise is correct. In addition to the point big jim made, some decoder also have a 'fade to mute' feature which allows the sound, diesel or steam, to be silenced without the need to re-start; simply turn up the volume again when you need it. Kind regards, Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les1952 Posted May 31, 2015 Author Share Posted May 31, 2015 So could the sound of loco starting up half-a-length out of sight behind the backscene be a function of the operator not knowing it will do differently? Also- some of these locos run to a cassette yard where locos are shut down. Cassette connected back in with loco next to backscene, can the diesel be run up to an operating speed in "silent" mode? Again the thing starting up just out of sight when it is supposed to have travelled a mile along the track doesn't convince. I'm building a line with a total fiddle yard length of twenty inches (representing three miles back to the junction) so am wondering whether DCC sound in my diesels will be counteproductive. Les Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 There is no reason why a diesel sound chip cannot be configured to start running without the startup sequence (and the start sequence could be put onto a function key somewhere else if required). So, ask your sound providers to "blow" the sound chips to your requirements. Some sound providers are very responsive to customer requests for specific features. Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 All the UK diesel chips I have (all by Legomanbiffo) will start at the correct point if the sound is turned on once the loco is already moving. Conversely, turning off whilst moving cuts the sound immediately. Legoman's lastest chips have the sound fade in/out as appropriate but ask before buying if you want this feature as it is new and still being evaluated. Best of luck. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Sudden cut-off of sound is a bit crude, though, isn't it? Not what Les 1952 is looking for, I think. Doesn't give any illusion of a train sound fading into the distance. Nice fade in or out is a lot more subtle and effective.Zimo users are used to such niceties as standard. No need to ask for 'special requests' for fade on ZIMO sound decoders, no evaluation needed either, it's been a standard feature for years. Nice to hear ESU are trying to catch up. Lol. Furthermore, fade can be added to any ZIMO sound project, old or new, by the end user (no need to re-blow) by setting CV313 with the F key number you want to assign to the task. (Oh, BTW, CV314 sets the duration, measured in seconds, of the fade in/out so you can control the effect to achieve exactly what you wish). Les. Yes, very like explanation. Many operators have never read the detailed instructions which come with quality sound projects so don't always get the best from them. With (almost?) all UK Diesel sound decoders*, to avoid start up routine, just dial one speed step to start movement then immediately press F key 1 to start the sound with the engine running at the appropriate sound. This is very well known amongst sound decoder users, easily and often found out by accident. lol. *The Fowler sound project I created for Ixion has such a long winded, but protypical, start-up routine, that I included a special 'fade in' engine start up sound in addition to the standard 'Fade all Sounds' feature. Not as 'professional' as a decent fade in or out on an exhibition layout. Cassette, fiddle yard, sector plate, tunnels, or simply fading in or out with distance are all catered for in this way. Fade in and out, configured correctly (and that's easy to do) will be a positive asset - giving the illusion of a train approaching from a distance - rather that being counter productive. I strongly suggest that you get comprehensive advice about sound decoder capabilities before making a decision on this. It would be a pitty if you made the wrong choice (for you) based on wrong info or assumptions. Catch Legomanbiffo or me at a convenient exhibition and one of us will give you the complete story so you can make a fully informed decision. Kind regards, Paul Les, just notied your 'Notts' location. Have a day out in Lincoln, plenty of interest for those who like shopping/culturals sites/massive cathedrals and, er, digital model railways. Digitrains has good parking and is close to bus and railway stations. You'll get well informed and non-partisan advice on a wide range of sound decoders as they sell them all, not just one brand. They have an extensive demo track and many sound equipped locos of all types ready to put through their paces. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les1952 Posted May 31, 2015 Author Share Posted May 31, 2015 Thanks for that Paul. I'm sufficient of a regular Digitrains shop customer for them to know me by name- and I've talked to you a few times at shows, most recently about K1 soundfiles and stay-alive. The N-gauge layout (which is a 10 foot roundy-roundy) won't have any sound-fitted diesels as there isn't enough bass to do justice to the one I really wanted to do (guess which). At the moment the OO has only a Sentinel with a Judith Edge 88DS coming shortly. I suspect the latter just hasn't enough room for sound as well as the weight to pull anything. The sound if I do go that route would be in an 08 with a steamer or two done first. All the very best Les Appended the link to my WD with Pauliebanger sound- filmed by Mr Simon..... http://youtu.be/RaR3bpL6CuU Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Les, Ah, then you know I not speak with forked tongue! This must be a subject you've not asked about before then. Now that I know you are in safe hands, I can sleep well tonight. Lol. I viewed the video. Is this loco fitted with a sugar cube speaker? It sounds to me as if the speaker is buzzing at high frequencies - an indication that the speaker is in trouble. Either the sound volume is too high or the enclosure is separating fom the speaker, or both, but worth correcting before any permanant damage is done. In that scene, a long fade in as the loco comes into sight and similarly long fade out as it passes under the overbridge would transform the clip, and give an idea of what you could achieve when leaving the fiddle yard*. That particular project of mine in the clip does not have the fade assigned to any F key, but as I said earlier, you can add it easily. CV313 = 221 will assign fade' to F key 21, (the first unused F key) and a value of around 60 will give the gradual fade in and out you would need. Give it a go. *Some of my recent ZIMO sound projects have another feature that would help to enhance the illusion of the three mile trip from the junction. An F key raises the engine sound to a pre-determined (by the user) 'power level' at very low speeds, even stationary. Here's how it would work: With the sound muted (Fade key engaged), engage the specified 'power level' F key (on the latest Class 08 it is F7). The sound will 'silently' ramp up to high power. Now release the Fade Key and the sound, already at high power, will begin to fade in. As the sound gets close to maximum (you can time this accurately) drive the loco out of the yard, its public appearance coinciding with maximum volume. I mean by that of course, the maximum volume you have decided to use, not necesarily the decoder's maximum. Good luck Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les1952 Posted May 31, 2015 Author Share Posted May 31, 2015 Thanks for that. I'll have a play with that on the WD- Hawthorn Dene isn't set up at the moment as it isn't out again until November- but I do have a small oval test track. The WD has a small sugar cube speaker. My 2MT (which you have seen) has had a replacement speaker so I wouldn't be surprised if the WD speaker is also on its way out. Jeremy will be thrilled with being asked to replace that- he fitted it in the first place. All the very best Les Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted June 1, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 1, 2015 Hi Les Just to add to what has been said above We use Howes sound on Loksound chips - and in every case if you start up the sound with the loco already moving the sound matches the loco speed at that point. This can be further enhanced by over-riding the inertia functions on the chip using a function (0ften F14) so that acceleration to line speed is achieved much more rapidly and then switching inertia back on once the loco is on the scenic layout for prototypical operation Kind regards Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 The fade in and out aspect has been standard on South West Digitals sound projects for years. Nothing new about this ability at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 The fade in and out aspect has been standard on South West Digitals sound projects for years. Nothing new about this ability at all. Whilst that's true, things are 'new' at any time to people who have not experienced them before. Maybe that explains Les's previous auditory experience of diesel operation at exhibitions? What would be interesting to know, and be very useful information for some people, is how to add a fade in and out feature to a Loksound decoder if the original author has not programmed it in from the start. Kind regards, Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Hi Les Just to add to what has been said above We use Howes sound on Loksound chips - and in every case if you start up the sound with the loco already moving the sound matches the loco speed at that point. This can be further enhanced by over-riding the inertia functions on the chip using a function (0ften F14) so that acceleration to line speed is achieved much more rapidly and then switching inertia back on once the loco is on the scenic layout for prototypical operation Kind regards Phil Hi Phil, That's a great tip, thanks. On ZIMO decoders the same function (either reducing inertia to a predetermined level or eliminating inertia altogether, temporarilly) is called 'Shunt Mode'. If anyone would like such a feature on a ZIMO sound decoder which is currently without it, CV124 is used to set the reduction ( 3 is a commonly used value in this CV), whilst CV156 twill assign the F key to operate it. Of course, some operators find it is actually quite useful during Shunting ops, too. Lol Kind regards, Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tractor_37260 Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 What would be interesting to know, and be very useful information for some people, is how to add a fade in and out feature to a Loksound decoder if the original author has not programmed it in from the start. Kind regards, Paul Hi Paul Already discussed in this thread - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/91324-what-sound-volume-setting-do-people-use-at-home/ see post # 12 25 47 etc The "fade sound" option can be added to any Lok 4 on any F key apart from F1 by the end user, preferably using a lokprogrammer. As I already mentioned, I find this option much more flexible and useable than the basic fade out/in option used on SWD Multi Start decoders via F1. Regards Ken Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Hi Paul Already discussed in this thread - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/91324-what-sound-volume-setting-do-people-use-at-home/ see post # 12 25 47 etc The "fade sound" option can be added to any Lok 4 on any F key apart from F1 by the end user, preferably using a lokprogrammer. For those without a LokProgrammer, JMRI DecoderPro is now getting close to the same capabilities for function key changing in LokSounds; the more recent JMRI releases have a function map which looks like the LokProgrammer arrangement. That saves buying a LokProgrammer, which is only really useful for those who want to load their own sounds, which in turn, means have access to sound samples and knowledge of how to build sound files. - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FSB Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 This may be a newbie asking a silly question but here goes anyway. I run sound-fitted steam locos on an exhibition layout and find that if I get the loco running up to speed and cut in the sound shortly before the loco appears in view the chuffing starts up already synchronised to the rotation of the wheels. However any diesel I've seen seems to want to start up its engine and build up to the speed even if said diesel is already moving. Frankly a loco starting its engine just offstage then moving the short distance out of the fiddle yard onto the layout to me totally destroys the effect of having the sound in the first place. The fiddle yard can't represent some distance down the line if it is obvious the diesel is sitting a couple of inches offscene. The question is- is it possible for this loco coming in from offstage to cut the sound in with the engine running matched to how the loco is moving - or is it beyond the ability of the chip to be programmed thus? Les Yes, with SWD UDrive. FSB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliepetty Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Most sound decoders I have seen 'Work Instantly' IF you get the loco running on your controller then press 1 to get the sound on, this definitely works on SWD & Legomanbiffo Sounds, the SWD can be bought direct from South West Digital and Legomanbiffo can be purchased & 'Listened to' on their YouTube clips via www.dckits-devideos.co.uk on the Digital Sound Section. Charlie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 There is one exception to this: Legomanbiffo's class 73. In this particular case, it's what we want anyway, as the real ones can start up their diesel engines on the move. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 There are other 'exceptions' too. The Ixion Fowler sound project has a very long and complex start-up sequence beginning wih the hand-cranked starting of a small 'donkey' engine which in turn allows the main engine to be started. Whilst prototypical, it can be tedious to have to go through this each time ( the real locos would be started at the beginning of a shift and left running on idle when not being worked). So I included an optional fade- start which is simply the engine idle sound, no cranking etc. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted July 1, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 1, 2015 Most sound decoders I have seen 'Work Instantly' IF you get the loco running on your controller then press 1 to get the sound on, this definitely works on SWD & Legomanbiffo Sounds, the SWD can be bought direct from South West Digital and Legomanbiffo can be purchased & 'Listened to' on their YouTube clips via www.dckits-devideos.co.uk on the Digital Sound Section. Charlie Loksound chips with Howes files work like that too Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted July 2, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 2, 2015 To go back to the original posting. I am hopelessly inexperienced with Diesel sound used on a cassette/fiddle yard style layout. However, I have several loco's with 'fade' in/out and that is absolutely brilliant for loco's entering stage left or right and either passing through or slowing/stopping. At this point I can't remember which chips I have but I know one is SWD, one is Biffo and a couple from Digitrains (Pauls?) I'm not going to mention where the worst sound chips I have were purchsed; there is long discussion about that place elsewhere. I really must get them reblown or replaced with up to date chips at some time, but the layout is in store just at the moment. One bit of advice, I rushed into getting sound chips without taking much advice first and that turned out to be a very expensive error! Good luck. Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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