RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted July 17, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 17, 2015 There is a bigger picture, it is not just about Greece nor even Europe. The response of Europe to the Greek crises from day one has had a dreadful affect on how the rest of the world views Europe and Europe has lost an awful lot of credibility in terms of not being seem as competent and effective. When you talk to Asian people in particular the status of Europe has gone from one of being admired and a model of international co-operation and an example of how to promote closer economic and political integration to being a one of a series of warnings that Asia needs to learn from. I regularly get comments when attending international bodies to the effect that Europe can't manage itself so why do they keep trying to tell us what to do. Ditto the IMF has lost an awful lot of credibility which could have longer term consequences that go far beyond Greece and Europe. Lest this is seen as anti-European, I am actually pro-EU on the whole and think that for all its faults the EU is a positive concept but it has scored a lot of own goals over the last 7 or 8 years. And when all is said and done, there is a human crises in Greece which is taking a terrible toll and regardless of the politics of it all the Greek people need support and need hope for a better future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Oh, please. Everyone knew at the time that the Greeks did not comply with the requirements - just as it was widely known that the French did not comply, either, so everyone discreetly looked away. It's too late now to claim that their European partners were "deceived" (unless you mean "deceived" in the same sense that Inspector Renault was shocked - shocked! - to discover that gambling was taking place in Rick's American cafe). Paul Well said, Paul. All the southern European countries including France went almost overnight (well, okay - over a decade!) from countries with open sewers and driving around in horse and cart, to BMW owning "wealthy" folk! Rather a generalisation, I admit but - I SAW it happen. Throughout the seventies and early eighties, my folks and I travelled extensively through the Mediterranean countries and these and other things were quite common. As the various countries joined the Euro/Common market, an overnight change literally did happen - new roads, ports, factories, entire towns were built and everyone was clearly much better off. In the case of the Greeks (see my alternative location to see I MUST have several Greek friends), if you got the chance to retire at 55 and have a great pension - you'd take it! It is human nature to take what you can get, you cannot blame a person for taking what his government offers, you cannot blame him for re-electing that government either. You can blame those governments and more importantly, the (EU) system that allowed said governments to "get away" with unsustainable policies for so long. Furthermore, we Brit's cannot blame the Greeks for their perceived lifestyle choices when we have a system that allows so many families to exist "on benefits" alone - that's a lifestyle choice that "we" have allowed them to make, they can get away with it, you can't blame them. Much of the bad feeling in the various countries is again, down to sensationalist reporting in the media, imho. I KNOW that many Greeks work physically hard for very long hours indeed and past regular retiring age too yet you won't hear about them in the news. I think the Greek media is equally at fault here too, some of my friends have become extremely anti-German recently! Sincerely, John E. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 That is the point I was making not only are there a lot of servicemen and women but there are a lot of service pensioners too, how many Generals do you need to organise a coup? Sorry Mick, I'm not sure how this is any kind of "Greek" situation? Greece is a NATO member and as such HAS to spend set amounts of it's GDP on it's Military, as do we Brits and the rest of NATO. Are you saying that just because there were coup's in the past, we should be worried about such a thing now? I think that is still a possibility but one that could happen more or less anywhere in the world not just Greece. I remember Spain when it was a military dictatorship and I remember actually being in Portugal when there was a coup - it didn't affect us one bit! Cheers, John. PS It may look like it but I'm not trying to stir an argument, I just want a fair discussion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad McCann Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 One of the reasons for Greece's problems stems, paradoxically from a massive arms deal involving German companies and involving finance packages from German banks made by one of the previous administrations. For which those bodies paid massive kick-backs to the then Greek defence minister. Consequently he did time for it, although it's the Greek people who are ultimately being punished for the crimes of an out of control financial behemoth. In my opinion they should have defaulted and taken the Icelandic option of jailing those truly responsible. They would have experienced a few bad years but would have found their own feet in due course. As it is, the ordinary people now face Orwell's future of a boot stamping on a human face forever whilst the perpetrators move on to their next target. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 why not Israel as well since they're already in the the Eurovision thing. ...Australia...? Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Still, only a matter of time before some bright spark invites North African countries to join the EU, and why not Israel as well since they're already in the the Eurovision thing. There's hope for Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Jordan and possibly even Syria/Islamic State joining the EU, then. If this starts either Britain needs to abandon Europe with all possible haste OR I'm off altogether! IMHO Europe could work IF some kind of wealth transference device (as used in USA?) were deployed. The current system of the wealthier northern block becoming anti the southern block and vice versa is unsustainable and could lead who knows where? Europe has some cultural problems (evidently) but if N. African or middle eastern countries were invited into the mix - it ain't gonna work! Don't believe me? Look at Yugoslavia, the USSR and no doubt, many other places where "artificial" groupings have been imposed, a strong and powerful leader (a dictator) can impose order for a time, then it all falls apart. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted July 17, 2015 Author Share Posted July 17, 2015 It's not so much the EU that's a problem. As an internationalist I like the basic concept. Problem is that the organisation is now in the hands of rather dark forces... You like a concept which you admit has proven capable of falling into the hands of dark forces? To me that argues that the basic concept is fatally flawed. I submit as evidence the misery inflicted on the peoples of Portugal, Ireland, Spain and particularly Greece. Government that truly cares for the governed simply doesn't contemplate such things. The quality of mercy is not strained, and all that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad McCann Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 I agree fully with those sentiments actually. For clarity, the idea of the EU being a facilitator of trade and free movement between its member states and the various social, workplace and environmental protections developed was something I considered to be a good thing. Having seen in recent weeks how the Troika have treated Greece's people for having the audacity to question their death cult of permanent austerity has made me fundamentally revisit my previously held opinion. In a referendum for UK membership of this organisation I would have unequivocally voted to continue before this. Now 'between a rock and a hard place' appears to be the option... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium skipepsi Posted July 17, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 17, 2015 I am merely pointing out that people who wish to engineer 'regime change' in Greece should look carefully at the results in other places. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 .... 'between a rock and a hard place' appears to be the option... Previously it was "between Iraq and a hard place"..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purley Oaks Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 The EU has done a superb job of keeping its members war-free with one another since '45. For that I am extremely grateful - of course, true democracies never/hardly ever go to war with one another, either. The EU has now, imo, done an appalling job of royally screwing Greece and its people; debt relief and cancellation should have been considered when this whole crisis began, and, yes, Greece should not have massaged its accounts to join the Euro in the first place, but we are where we are. I am pro-EU, but could be persuaded otherwise now. The EU is surely about its people just as much as the money. On the other hand, in the UK, Bank of England chief Mark Carney is giving a date for interest rate rises here which appears to be based on the south east property market hothouse rather than what is really going on in the north of England, Scotland or Wales. In a smaller way, is that so very far removed from what Germany is doing to Greece? Mal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 ....The current government refused to address the issues of (tax) privileges for the wealthy, even though they are an extreme left-wing party. ... Possibly because a fair number of them, Tsipras and Varoufakis amongst them, are from (very) wealthy backgrounds themselves? It begins to look like classic champagne socialist tendencies: "Do as I say. Not as I do." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted July 17, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 17, 2015 The indignation of some countries would carry more weight if it wasn't for the fact that economic considerations for subjugated to political ambition when the Euro was launched. Several have pointed out that it was no secret that Greece cooked their books and did all sorts of manoeuvres to limbo dance into the Euro and that they were not the only ones yet now the same countries that turned a blind eye are claiming they were deceived. Greece certainly was wrong to enter the single currency on a lie, but the other Eurozone members were just as wrong to decide they'd allow it for the sake of political purposes. The real beneficiaries of the various aid have not been Greece, it has been those countries that are owed a lot of money by Greece who loan more money so it can be paid back in part repayment of older loans and to try and give the single currency credibility. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenman Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 ... but the people of Greece have made the choices they have and therefore will have to face their consequences. ... No idea how you're coming to the strange conclusions you are on this issue. The Greek people just voted not to accept more austerity, but have now been told by their government that they will have even more than they have just rejected. Far from your rather crude assertion that the "people of Greece have made the choices they have", it looks to me like their choices have counted for nought and they have had imposed on them precisely what they have already rejected. Admittedly the likeliest consequence of their choice was Grexit and a couple of years of brutal chaos, but that would at least have been their choice. Now, they face an infinite future of penury, like an impoverished person at the mercy of loan sharks with ever-increasing repayments. Perhaps it would be more human to think of the consequences for everyone in the EU, including the Greeks, rather than insisting on what looks to me like a simplistic approach of "they've taken the loans, and now they must pay" - which even the IMF tells us is simply impossible. And I write that as someone whose taxes have recently been used to bailout multinational financial institutions (and the relatively wealthy people who work for them) which, as far as I can see, didn't much deserve to be helped. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted July 17, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 17, 2015 No idea how you're coming to the strange conclusions you are on this issue. The Greek people just voted not to accept more austerity, but have now been told by their government that they will have even more than they have just rejected. Far from your rather crude assertion that the "people of Greece have made the choices they have", it looks to me like their choices have counted for nought and they have had imposed on them precisely what they have already rejected. Admittedly the likeliest consequence of their choice was Grexit and a couple of years of brutal chaos, but that would at least have been their choice. Now, they face an infinite future of penury, like an impoverished person at the mercy of loan sharks with ever-increasing repayments. We've just spent some time with some German friends, their take on it is that part of the problem is the Greek people elected a government to act on their behalf, who first off wanted debt cancelled as war reparations, then after realising they couldn't, negotiated a deal which they took to a referendum. Thats fine but the Greek people's reply was that they did not want austerity but the majority wanted to stay in the Euro. They say In most Germans eyes you can't have both. Either they want to go there own way with their own currency or they use the Euro and accept the penalty. I think the Germans have lent them something like 60Billion and quite rightly want to know whether they will get anything back. The average German is still paying the Re-unification tax after 25 years even though that was only meant to be 2-3 years, you can't blame them for getting a bit peeved when another country has squandered money given to it ( Just look at Greek railways to see how EU money has been wasted) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 I fear that this could be the long term future for the United Kingdom as since 1979 there has been the slow disintegration of the UK manufacturing base! If a country has to import more than it can produce then all is lost! In the 1970's the "trade balance" was a very important political football! As Tesco has found when you get to the top there is only one way to go, with competitors nibbling at your empire! Mark Saunders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenman Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 ... I think the Germans have lent them something like 60Billion and quite rightly want to know whether they will get anything back. The average German is still paying the Re-unification tax after 25 years even though that was only meant to be 2-3 years, you can't blame them for getting a bit peeved when another country has squandered money given to it ( Just look at Greek railways to see how EU money has been wasted) I think part of the problem is the way some people have a moralistic perspective. Take your last para (and I am not picking on you - just using your German friends as a handy example). On the one hand you wrote that the Germans have "lent" the Greeks money, but on the other you ask us to sympathise with the lenders (sic) who believe the money has been "squandered". If I borrow money (assuming it's not secured against property), it's up to me how I spend it. The morality of my decisions - of how I choose to live my life - is none of the lender's business. If I choose to spend it all on Hornby and Bachmann locos, when they would have put it into buying a new kitchen - well, that's my choice to make. Their job is to make responsible loans (ie, to lend money that they believe can be repaid, with the appropriate interest). So I am not very interested in the moral judgements of a taxpayer in a country whose commercial banks have made commercial decisions to make sovereign loans to Greece, and are now desperate to get the lolly back. What I am interested in is consequences: consequences for Greece whose governments have made lousy governing, borrowing and spending decisions; consequences for the commercial banks that made lousy, lousy lending decisions; and consequences for the EU/Eurozone institutions which decided that they were going to turn a blind eye to Greek (and French, etc) dishonesty when they were desperate to get everyone into the Euro. That pain should be shared out fairly. One party should not be impoverished for eternity by being saddled with loans that are impossible to repay, just to satisfy the moral qualms of some northern tax-payers (including me). There's a great EM Forster line: "you've had your fun, and now you must pay". Well, everyone has had fun - the banks, the Eurozone and Greece. So now everyone must pay their fair share. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted July 17, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 17, 2015 I can understand the German view, but they are also refusing to make a hard decision in accepting that debt relief is essential otherwise they will be back in exactly the same position at some point in the future. If they will not accept debt relief then they either eject Greece from the Euro and accept the political and financial implications for the single currency and Europe or they continue giving money to Greece so they can hand it back as debt repayment. Personally I tend to think a Grexit is the least bad solution but that is just me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 ....I think the Germans have lent them something like 60Billion and quite rightly want to know whether they will get anything back. .... I'll give you two guesses on that one.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
0_gauge_novice Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 This will be my last post on the topic, 1) The Germans also "cooked" their numbers for entering the euro. The debts made for the "renunification" of Germany were extempt from the total debt. Also they lied about the unemployment. 2) I hear often about the military budget. I am for cuttings in that sector. But guess what. The Germans insisted that all contracts and pre-orders should be honoured and none of the defence programmes should be stopped. Furthermore you cannot understand the position of Greece. There are time that Turkey is friendly (period 1999 to about 2004 for example) and other periods that are quite tense. This is something central and northern Europe do not have. I do not want war with Turkey and the Turks do not want that either but it is sadly the internal potical situation that gives problems. Furthermore Cyprus does not "want" an Army (they have but it is small) and Greece is "offering" military cover...hm.....last but not least. I live in Switzerland and I cannot understand why on earth do they need an air force? To stop Austria invading them? This is the situation in central Europe and in the Balkans it is much differnt. 3)The mean age of pension in Greece is 0.1 years more that in Germany (62 point something I dont remember exactly). Minimum vacation is 20 days and if I compare it with other EU countries it is far less. So no argument there.The tendency is to look on the state sector and forget the private sector, which workers have quite bad work conditions. Thats all from me Cheers Andreas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted July 17, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 17, 2015 I think part of the problem is the way some people have a moralistic perspective. Take your last para (and I am not picking on you - just using your German friends as a handy example). <snip> There's a great EM Forster line: "you've had your fun, and now you must pay". Well, everyone has had fun - the banks, the Eurozone and Greece. So now everyone must pay their fair share. Paul I do know they have sympathy with the average Greek person, and they think that as usual the problem is with the German and succesive Greek governments and the unelected EU hierarchy. I'm all for helping my neighbours and I was considering lending the Greek Government a few quid, obviously it's usual to have something such as property as collateral, so I don't mind having what Lord Elgin left behind and know somewhere in Central London I could store it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 The EU has done a superb job of keeping its members war-free with one another since '45. For that I am extremely grateful - of course, true democracies never/hardly ever go to war with one another, either. The EU has now, imo, done an appalling job of royally screwing Greece and its people; debt relief and cancellation should have been considered when this whole crisis began, and, yes, Greece should not have massaged its accounts to join the Euro in the first place, but we are where we are. I am pro-EU, but could be persuaded otherwise now. The EU is surely about its people just as much as the money. On the other hand, in the UK, Bank of England chief Mark Carney is giving a date for interest rate rises here which appears to be based on the south east property market hothouse rather than what is really going on in the north of England, Scotland or Wales. In a smaller way, is that so very far removed from what Germany is doing to Greece? Mal The Scottish banks could keep their rates low. Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted July 17, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 17, 2015 The Scottish banks could keep their rates low. Ed Which would they be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 I think part of the problem is the way some people have a moralistic perspective. Take your last para (and I am not picking on you - just using your German friends as a handy example). On the one hand you wrote that the Germans have "lent" the Greeks money, but on the other you ask us to sympathise with the lenders (sic) who believe the money has been "squandered". If I borrow money (assuming it's not secured against property), it's up to me how I spend it. The morality of my decisions - of how I choose to live my life - is none of the lender's business. If I choose to spend it all on Hornby and Bachmann locos, when they would have put it into buying a new kitchen - well, that's my choice to make. Their job is to make responsible loans (ie, to lend money that they believe can be repaid, with the appropriate interest). So I am not very interested in the moral judgements of a taxpayer in a country whose commercial banks have made commercial decisions to make sovereign loans to Greece, and are now desperate to get the lolly back. Paul When we were getting my son's mortgage, the guy went through his bank statements line by line asking him how much he spent and on what. He pointed out the number of pizza's bought. Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Greeks have steered their country towards the abyss by electing the current government with promises they knew they couldn't keep. Bit like how the Scots voted in their referendum after Cameron, Clegg and Milliband did the same. Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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