Translation required, into modern Greek

[Joseph_Pestell]

Paul, you missed the crux of my message: it's not just the current one, but successive Greek governments for the last 15-20 years. All of them knew (difficult) measures were needed to get the Greek economy up to scratch, none were willing to take these while the money was plentiful from the north. And every government was voted in by the Greeks, not the Germans, Dutch or even British!

 

Totally agree. This was rather the theme of a discussion I had last weekend with a group including a local MEP.

 

By the time Greece, the IMF and the EU sat down to negotiate about this, it was way too late. Tsipras did not have the necessary manoeuvring space to make any sort of negotiation possible. He must have known that he would not be able to deliver what the referendum was asking for (no doubt why Varoufakis had already jumped) but hoped that the EU would take some account of the Greek people's feelings.

 

Although there has recently been some turnround in the Greek economy, there is only so much that can be achieved with austerity to this level. Killing off an economy is no way to get a debt repaid so, as others here have written, it really needed some level of debt cancellation as well. If we can do it for Third World countries, why not for Greece?

 

While accepting that the post-2008 bailouts have worked elsewhere, I don't see this deal as sustainable. Given a few months to sort out the details, I think that Greece (and the EU) might be better served by an orderly return to a new drachma. But that could not be done from the situation that they were in.

[Mad McCann]

"...then they came for the Greeks.

And I did nothing because I was not a Greek..."

[Fenman]

... If I borrow money (assuming it's not secured against property) ...

 

 

When we were getting my son's mortgage ...

 

But, anyway, perhaps the institution considering your son's mortgage was being responsible in going through every line of his budget?

 

I have seen no evidence that any of the relevant commercial banks, or the Eurozone governments, took the slightest responsibility for going through Greece's budget, instead all sniggering behind their hands and looking the other way when they knew that Greece (etc) was not meeting the criteria for Euro entry, but they let them in anyway.

 

I keep banging on about the necessity of pain being shared by everyone in these circumstances, because otherwise the moral hazard created for banks (and governments) might well bring us all down. The consolation for the rest of us is that Greece is relatively small beer in the great financial scheme of things; that is of little consolation to the poor people of Greece.

 

Paul

[jjb1970]

The consolation for the rest of us is that Greece is relatively small beer in the great financial scheme of things; that is of little consolation to the poor people of Greece.

 

Paul

I think this comment says much. The human cost is being carried by Greek people, the rest of Europe may not like paying more in tax to fund the Greek bailouts but the Greek people are the ones being hammered. And the other point is that Greece should be solvable by Europe. I really don't think Europe realises just how much damage has been done to its reputation by the repeated ineptitude and failure to address this problem head on.

[jjb1970]

The UK is not exempt from cooking our books, the whole point of PFI was to kick liabilities into the future and keep the resulting debt of our national accounts. Effectively it is a giant never-never scheme for the country yet for years the treasury issued statistics on our national debt with PFI liabilities an elephant in the room.

[Neil]

Well, answer this question: if it was YOUR money the Greeks are spending so copiously, would you still agree to their politics of spending billions and billions of other people's hard-earned tax money? Your PM was certainly very adamant it shouldn't, now that the current package is to be paid from EU money, rather then euro-zone members alone He's "conveniently" forgetting that a Greek default would have (severe?) repercussions in the City as well. Compared to what other EU nations, in particular Germany, already had to cough up, that 750m quid is actually quite a bargain .....

 

If I had been naive enough to lend my money to someone who I wasn't certain could repay me then perhaps I shouldn't complain if that loan turns sour and I have to write that debt off to experience.

 

I suspect that it is in the wealthy north's interest to help Greece haul its economy out of recession; I wonder what effect a large influx of unemployed Greek labour would have if it pitched up there seeking work or benefits. Even without this self interest I'd argue that the North (and I include the UK here) have 'won' thanks to  the European project and should do the right thing by those whose economies have gone down the plughole; it seems grossly unfair to expect to reap the rewards without shouldering the responsibilities.

[Mad McCann]

It should also be noted that as little as 10% of any of these 'bail-out'

Packages actually went to service Greek debt. The remainder goes back to the Troika via various channels, subsidising the Casino banks and enriching the offshore accounts of the 1%, whilst public assets are transferred to private hands and the long term security and hope of ordinary people are swept aside as irrelevant detritus. What has happened in Greece will eventually reach these shores unless the ordinary people wake up to the colossal acts of theft taking place under the guise of 'austerity'.

It's my belief that the people of Europe and the Anglophone world today face as big an existential threat from the forces behind these acts as any seen since 1945.

IS doesn't even come close.

[Joseph_Pestell]

It should also be noted that as little as 10% of any of these 'bail-out'

Packages actually went to service Greek debt. The remainder goes back to the Troika via various channels, subsidising the Casino banks and enriching the offshore accounts of the 1%, whilst public assets are transferred to private hands and the long term security and hope of ordinary people are swept aside as irrelevant detritus. What has happened in Greece will eventually reach these shores unless the ordinary people wake up to the colossal acts of theft taking place under the guise of 'austerity'.

It's my belief that the people of Europe and the Anglophone world today face as big an existential threat from the forces behind these acts as any seen since 1945.

IS doesn't even come close.

 

I thought that it already had.

[Mad McCann]

I suspect they have barely started...

[pete_mcfarlane]

When we were getting my son's mortgage, the guy went through his bank statements line by line asking him how much he spent and on what. He pointed out the number of pizza's bought.

 

Ed

 

I had something similar last year when I approved for a mortgage - apparently it was a FCA requirement brought in last year. I can see both sides - it protects both parties from over borrowing, and failures to pay it back, but it does feel a bit like you are being treated like child who can't be trusted to do the sums yourself. 

[jjb1970]

The mortgage thing is a case of returning to an approach that worked in the past, it may be a pain in the rear end but after the insane lending policies of the 00's I think it is right for the banks to be told to check that borrowers can afford loans. Checking that a borrower can afford a loan may seem obvious but whereas when I got my first mortgage in 1993 it felt like sitting in front of the headmaster being grilled when I moved house in 2002 it was a case of "come to us, borrow as much as you want!" with virtually no checks and most banks were arranging mortgages via a short telephone call. Then we wonder why there was a credit fuelled housing bubble. I was actually all but told off by the banks for not borrowing enough and they tried to persuade me to take more. If the banks are going to be that careless with lending money and actively encourage people to borrow more and more then it is pretty predictable what will happen..

[jjb1970]

When I left college and went off to sea as a junior engineer on what at the time felt like a princely salary after four years of living on a cadets income I went to ask the bank for a credit card on the basis that it would mean I would be able to book my self a hotel room or in extremis a flight if things went disastrously wrong on my travels. They eventually agreed but with a trivial credit limit only to be raised once I had a bit of time earning my new salary. Within a few years I'd be deluged with credit card offers and my own bank would be almost begging me to spend spend spend and increasing my credit limit to silly levels. Again it is no wonder many gave into temptation and went silly spending on plastic and juggling debts between multiple cards.

[Mark Saunders]

When I left college and went off to sea as a junior engineer on what at the time felt like a princely salary after four years of living on a cadets income I went to ask the bank for a credit card on the basis that it would mean I would be able to book my self a hotel room or in extremis a flight if things went disastrously wrong on my travels. They eventually agreed but with a trivial credit limit only to be raised once I had a bit of time earning my new salary. Within a few years I'd be deluged with credit card offers and my own bank would be almost begging me to spend spend spend and increasing my credit limit to silly levels. Again it is no wonder many gave into temptation and went silly spending on plastic and juggling debts between multiple cards.

 

I got my first credit card and within six months had a credit limit similar to that of a small banana republic and they wonder why people get in debt!

 

Mark Saunders

[Horsetan]

....it is no wonder many gave into temptation and went silly spending on plastic and juggling debts between multiple cards.

It does make you wonder whether this is what drives model railway RTR sales....

[jjb1970]

Probably, yes!! I suspect most of us knew people who were leading oddly luxurious lifestyles in the 00's and it almost felt that not joining in the credit bubble was seen as being the reckless attitude to be criticised. I moved down South just as people realised how serious things were (after the initial mass schadenfreude of seeing city boys catch a cold in seeming obliviousness to the fact we were all about to be hit) and even then the bank took the opportunity to bring my attention to credit cards and all sorts of other financial products to allow me to spend spend spend. They seemed to be genuinely perplexed that anybody could live a life with no credit other than a mortgage.

[Mad McCann]

It does make you wonder whether this is what drives model railway RTR sales....

In truth, it does make me feel somewhat uncomfortable to reflect that my own spending patterns of that era were part fuelled by over-use of plastic and the (in retrospect ridiculous) desire to acquire every new model that appeared now feels like a source of embarrassment.

The need to buy out my ex-wife's share of the house put paid to such extravagance and in due course I was fortunate enough to have one of the last decent occupational pensions which allowed me to clear all monies owed, mortgage et al.

How many others less fortunate than I was will face a worrying jolt of and when the much rumoured global currency reset kicks in?

 

Somehow I don't think we've seen the last of the Berlin-Brussels 'Brezhnev Doctrine'...

[Horsetan]

Could be bad news for Hornby, Bachmann, et al eventually.

[skipepsi]

No credit rating, no credit card, no new RTR either

[PhilJ W]

The last few years I've felt a bit like Mr. Micawber, my outgoings are now less than my income, I will have to start spending a bit more money.   Seriously though I still need to be careful as I have no idea what the future will bring but its nice to have that 'cushion' in retirement after many difficult times trying to keep my head above water.

[pete_mcfarlane]

It does make you wonder whether this is what drives model railway RTR sales....

You joke, but I remember 20+ years ago being told by a model shop owner about customers getting themselves in to financial trouble trying to keep up with the vast numbers of Lima diesel releases coming out at the time.  

[Mark Saunders]

You joke, but I remember 20+ years ago being told by a model shop owner about customers getting themselves in to financial trouble trying to keep up with the vast numbers of Lima diesel releases coming out at the time.  

 

And to think now you can't give them away!

 

Mark Saunders

[Mad McCann]

No credit rating, no credit card, no new RTR either

I guess now I owe next to b*gger all, my own credit rating is flatlining too. I only used my card for some urgent car repairs and I'm selling some nicely finished models to pay it, but getting off that particular hamster wheel is astonishingly liberating.

Even my modelling has returned to a focus form of, yes, actual modelling and I'm getting far more pleasure these days from unleashing proper creativity on a relative shoestring. £15 of small components and etches delivers more fun per ounce than £150 of RTR!

Perhaps we need a new genre label; postmodern image, folks?