Prices increases at a well known retailer!

[DaveClass47]

Prices Up and no longer the cheapest prices online

 

Is it just me who has noticed this, or are Hatton's increasing a lot of their prices of late?   I have noticed that some of their 'mega pack' buys are not as good value as they used to! (whilst still competitively priced)

 

Looking at their Peco stuff, you used to get 6 point motors for £25, now they have risen to £34!   I thought inflation was sitting at near 0%?, so where they got this 20%+ price increase is anyone's guess!   Some of their Bachmann price increases are also noticeable.

 

They are no longer the cheapest around, with Rails, Track-shack to name but two online retailers who are under cutting them on lots of items.   I still love shopping at Hattons, but they ain't as good value as they used to be.  Even their postage costs are not the best around, with Track-shack offering free postage on Locos and free delivery for spends of over £100, and they give you NEXT day delivery for under £4!  

 

I might be an old cynic and completely mis understanding the business side of things, but do you think they need to increase some prices to fund their 00 gauge loco projects?  I really dont know, what do you think?

 

I am still a fan of Hattons, but question some of their pricing of late.

Edited July 14, 2015 by DaveClass47

[APM]

I have noticed this as well, Rails seem to be cheaper on a lot of items. Hatton's are no longer the' just buy from no need to check elsewhere' choice.

[shunny]

Peco have put there prices up recently on some items so it could be Hattons have had to replenish sooner than other and now have stock at the higher prices I know the RRP of flexi track had 15p added this month.

 

 Hornby cut the margin on all products this year but orders placed prior to the start of 2015 were at the previous margin which has lead to some items being discounted more heavily than items announced this year. Some retailer are now selling at Hornby RRP such as Kernow while other seem to offer between 5 and 7% discount I suppose it depends on how much they feel they can afford.

 

This reduced profit from probably their biggest selling brand might have led to them looking at there overall margins on other brands and maybe adjust the amount of discount they offer.

 

I am lucky and still have a local model shop in my town and I purchase from them 95% of my models I get a small discount as a regular customer and don't have to pay postage and I can see the models before I buy. But I know many people don't have that luxury and I can see one or two mail order firms struggle as Hornby's new margins mean the end of big discounts but this could benefit what small local shops are left. 

[Legend]

I think Hattons are getting squeezed by manufacturers. As has been pointed out Hornby effectively cut retailers margins last year. In addition Bachmanns prices have increased by at least 15%in the last two years, and in many cases more. In addition Bachmann restrict the discount retailers can offer new products over a period of time ( I would have thought a pricing restriction as this would not be legal , but others more learned than me can comment). Net effect is amount of money Hattons making from big ranges must be diminishing, so prices up. Possibly to maintain their overall profitability they have had to increase prices on other ranges too . I think the point is that prices are increasing all over the hobby , despite as you say 0 inflation, oil prices 60% of last year, freight costs low etc etc................. It's all due to increased Chinese labour costs, a factor picked in isolation!

[gordon s]

Commercial businesses are complex organisations that are set up to make profit and provide a return to their shareholders.  

 

How they achieve those figures can done in various ways and product pricing is just one part of a complex equation.  

 

You cannot look at price increases in isolation and try to second guess why they have been applied.  There are numerous other areas of cost within a business that bear little relation to the product being sold.

 

Ultimately you have a the choice whether to buy or take your business elsewhere.

[DaveClass47]

Peco have put there prices up recently on some items so it could be Hattons have had to replenish sooner than other and now have stock at the higher prices I know the RRP of flexi track had 15p added this month.

 

 Hornby cut the margin on all products this year but orders placed prior to the start of 2015 were at the previous margin which has lead to some items being discounted more heavily than items announced this year. Some retailer are now selling at Hornby RRP such as Kernow while other seem to offer between 5 and 7% discount I suppose it depends on how much they feel they can afford.

 

This reduced profit from probably their biggest selling brand might have led to them looking at there overall margins on other brands and maybe adjust the amount of discount they offer.

 

I am lucky and still have a local model shop in my town and I purchase from them 95% of my models I get a small discount as a regular customer and don't have to pay postage and I can see the models before I buy. But I know many people don't have that luxury and I can see one or two mail order firms struggle as Hornby's new margins mean the end of big discounts but this could benefit what small local shops are left. 

Hi,

 

I wish it was the case that Hattons only bumped the prices up when the item had sold out and had to be replenished at the new increased price....but there are numerous examples of where this has not been the case, far from it!

 

For example, their Bachmann Mk1 and Mk2a coaches sat at £24.01 for ages with a healthy stock level and all of a sudden those SAME stock items have gone up to over £33, despite Hattons having bought them from the supplier when the price was lower.   Is that profiteering?   It's certainly a tad cheeky!!!   They have increased prices on all items across the range, not waiting for the existing stock to run out.  This might be ok when they are adding a few pence to a model, but not increasing it by around 30%!

 

As for the Peco point motors, this is another case of popping the prices of existing stock up.   I looked for more point motors and they were on at £25 for 6 on the Monday and when I got paid and was able to afford to place an order on the Friday of the same week they had jumped up to £34!   Same stock, new highly inflated prices. Hmmmmm.

 

Are Hattons are trying to increase the money they get in from loyal customers to fund their loco projects??   The way they are talking about this new King Class loco, it will be nothing short of life-like, with only the exclusion of a real boiler and working fire to distinguish it from the real thing lol.   I think they are over hyping it while racking up the prices on their 'bread and butter' items that we all need.   I hope I am wrong.   I am a big supporter of Hattons and their place in the hobby.

Edited July 14, 2015 by DaveClass47

[DaveClass47]

Commercial businesses are complex organisations that are set up to make profit and provide a return to their shareholders.  

 

How they achieve those figures can done in various ways and product pricing is just one part of a complex equation.  

 

You cannot look at price increases in isolation and try to second guess why they have been applied.  There are numerous other areas of cost within a business that bear little relation to the product being sold.

 

Ultimately you have a the choice whether to buy or take your business elsewhere.

Yes ultimately we do....and I for one am taking business elsewhere.   My goal is to get items for the best price, there is very little customer loyalty in the online shopping world.  I only wish my local model shop stocked a large range of railway stuff, then I would buy from them, but sadly I am forced to go online.

[HillsideDepot]

I see Hattons (and others) own models/limited edition liveries as being the exact opposite of what is suggested above. Rather than using the core range to fund the specials, I suspect that the attraction of the specials is that they can be offered at the "full price" rather than having to take whatever percentage off to compete with the other discounters.

 

But, at the end of the day, we're all only guessing at what the truth actually is.

[APOLLO]

Though there are still many bargains to be had at Hattons, especially on Heljan diesels at the moment.

 

In general our hobby is now a very expensive one, especially to the newcomer or those building a large layout.

 

Brit15

[phil-b259]

Hi,

 

I wish it was the case that Hattons only bumped the prices up when the item had sold out and had to be replenished at the new increased price....but there are numerous examples of where this has not been the case, far from it!

 

For example, their Bachmann Mk1 and Mk2a coaches sat at £24.01 for ages with a healthy stock level and all of a sudden those SAME stock items have gone up to over £33, despite Hattons having bought them from the supplier when the price was lower. Is that profiteering? It's certainly a tad cheeky!!! They have increased prices on all items across the range, not waiting for the existing stock to run out. This might be ok when they are adding a few pence to a model, but not increasing it by around 30%!

 

As for the Peco point motors, this is another case of popping the prices of existing stock up. I looked for more point motors and they were on at £25 for 6 on the Monday and when I got paid and was able to afford to place an order on the Friday of the same week they had jumped up to £34! Same stock, new highly inflated prices. Hmmmmm.

 

I think Hattons are trying to increase the money they get in from loyal customers to fund their loco projects! The way they are talking about this new King Class loco, it will be nothing short of life-like, with only the exclusion of a real boiler and working fire to distinguish it from the real thing!! I think they are over hyping it while racking up the prices on their 'bread and butter' items that we all need. I hope I am wrong, wither way I wont be buying one from them.

 

As for my future orders, well its Rails and Track-shack for me. Unless of course, Hattons get back to their core business of being the leading online retailer with the best prices.

Peco's price rises were announced a good month or so ago and in Pecos own words they would 'take immediate effect'. With regard to common items like point motors I don't think Hattons wait till they are down to their last few before placing orders for more and as such it is not a surprise that the prices Hatton charged for such items jumped up accordingly.

 

As for the rest of your post, I'm sorry but it is just the winging of a spoilt child - especially the nonsensical claims about the financing of the forthcoming King. For years Hattons have consistently been undercutting everybody else by some margin and only a fool would think it could go on forever.

 

It is an unfortunate part of the British mentality these days that people seem to think a discount is a God given right - well it's not. Just because many retailers deliberately have a policy of making things to the cost of the discount price yet market the items as though they are built to a higher spec but have the price massively reduced doesn't mean model railways should follow suit.

 

In short get used to higher prices and stop moaning.

Edited July 14, 2015 by phil-b259

[PhilH]

Peco's price rises were announced a good month or so ago and in Pecos own words they would 'take immediate effect'. With regard to common items like point motors I don't think Hattons wait till they are down to their last few before placing orders for more and as such it is not a surprise that the prices Hatton charged for such items jumped up accordingly.

As for the rest of your post, I'm sorry but it is just the winging of a spoilt child - especially the nonsensical claims about the financing of the forthcoming King. For years Hattons have consistently been undercutting everybody else by some margin and only a fool would think it could go on forever.

It is an unfortunate part of the British mentality these days that people seem to think a discount is a God given right - well it's not. Just because many retailers deliberately have a policy of making things to the cost of the discount price yet market the items as though they are built to a higher spec but have the price massively reduced doesn't mean model railways should follow suit.

In short get used to higher prices and stop moaning.

All well and good but I would hazard a guess that you, in common with most of the rest of us, would have a moan if the price of everything you had to buy was increased by 20-30%.

That's pretty steep.

[Forester]

Though there are still many bargains to be had at Hattons

 

Personally I'm not keen on their online Bargains section now containing some second-hand items, some in quite poor condition (missing major components like chimneys).

 

I prefer new not to be mixed with used under a single heading in a shop.

[colin penfold]

Hattons are entitled, like all retailers, to sell at any price between what they buy it for and the RRP. That can be modified by manufacturer rules like the oft quoted Bachmann "no less than 15% off RRP"

 

I don't think we should criticise Hattons for removing previously favourable discount prices, that's up to them. However, we should shop around for the best deal if we buy from box shifters. That's the rule of that particular jungle. Having said that, we probably all have our favourite retailer and might not mind paying a quid extra to stick with them. The tricky bit is if you buy multiple items to save postage. Then you have to compare the combined price and rule out retailers who cant supply your whole order. Simples?????????

[Fenman]

All well and good but I would hazard a guess that you, in common with most of the rest of us, would have a moan if the price of everything you had to buy was increased by 20-30%.

That's pretty steep.

Perhaps there's another way to look at it?

 

Hornby have lost millions and millions of pounds over the last few years. That means they have been subsidising the price of every Hornby model you have bought.

 

That couldn't go on forever and prices have now risen to a more realistic level (where I, at least, hope they will start making a profit again - becoming a sustainable business).

 

Do we express our gratitude for their years of subsidies? No: we now complain bitterly that everything costs too much!

 

Paul

Edited July 14, 2015 by Fenman

[andyman7]

All well and good but I would hazard a guess that you, in common with most of the rest of us, would have a moan if the price of everything you had to buy was increased by 20-30%.

That's pretty steep.

Indeed, but we aren't talking about an essential like food here.

 

Perhaps because I indulge in the odd new model that appeals but also have an interest in older and vintage items (unashamed nostalgia I'm afraid) I do bridle a bit at accusations that the hobby is now too expensive. If you look around, go to fairs etc secondhand items can be obtained very cheaply. If you want the latest item with every gimmick then it can be expensive but building a functional layout can be done for much less. There are literally hundreds of perfectly good functional locos of all types to be had for under £50, coaches at a tenner or less each (including Airfix and Mainline ones that are more than crude models) wagons, buildings, track etc. 

[phil-b259]

All well and good but I would hazard a guess that you, in common with most of the rest of us, would have a moan if the price of everything you had to buy was increased by 20-30%.

That's pretty steep.

 

That is true but it is rather irrelevant in this case as MOST (though not all) of Hattons price increases are simply the removal of the significant discount they have been apply for years compared to other retailers of a similar size and setup.

 

To expect ANY discount to continue forever is foolhardy and that is the point here.

[PhilH]

Indeed, but we aren't talking about an essential like food here

 

Let's put it another way. If there are people who think that a price rise of 20-30% on anything isn't steep then they must live in a different, and dare I say it more comfortable, world than I do. Edited July 14, 2015 by PhilH

[DaveClass47]

Peco's price rises were announced a good month or so ago and in Pecos own words they would 'take immediate effect'. With regard to common items like point motors I don't think Hattons wait till they are down to their last few before placing orders for more and as such it is not a surprise that the prices Hatton charged for such items jumped up accordingly.

 

As for the rest of your post, I'm sorry but it is just the winging of a spoilt child - especially the nonsensical claims about the financing of the forthcoming King. For years Hattons have consistently been undercutting everybody else by some margin and only a fool would think it could go on forever.

 

It is an unfortunate part of the British mentality these days that people seem to think a discount is a God given right - well it's not. Just because many retailers deliberately have a policy of making things to the cost of the discount price yet market the items as though they are built to a higher spec but have the price massively reduced doesn't mean model railways should follow suit.

 

In short get used to higher prices and stop moaning.

Hold on one minute...I can assure you that I am not a "spoilt child" and suggest you refrain from personal insults. 

 

I am only trying to speculate as to why the prices have gone up so steeply.   RMweb is a forum for debating, discussing and trying to make sense of what the retailers and manufacturers are doing, and the reasons behind them, and airing these views in an adult, respectful manner.  It is certainly not a forum for insulting some one else just because you don't share the same view point....that I suggest is childish!!

 

Discount is not a god given right, but getting the best deal for yourself, within your budget is, and is a right I intend to continue to take advantage of.

Edited July 14, 2015 by DaveClass47

[DaveClass47]

All well and good but I would hazard a guess that you, in common with most of the rest of us, would have a moan if the price of everything you had to buy was increased by 20-30%.

That's pretty steep.

Well said!!   No doubt some people don't moan about anything and are millionaires?! lol

[DaveClass47]

That is true but it is rather irrelevant in this case as MOST (though not all) of Hattons price increases are simply the removal of the significant discount they have been apply for years compared to other retailers of a similar size and setup.

 

To expect ANY discount to continue forever is foolhardy and that is the point here.

I think the point I am making is that the increases have been wide spread and severe in many cases.  I think we can all agree that we've had it so good for a long time, but perhaps a more progressive increase in prices would have been easier to swallow than the sudden shock of a 30% increase.    After all, most of us are still waiting for pay rises in our jobs after years of pay restrictions.   A gentler increase would have been welcomed.

[Black 5 Bear]

And why shouldn't people discuss and compare the price of products from different suppliers, certain shops have got previous for hiking costs on old items that they have in stock and increase it when the manufacturer increases the RRP. We are told today by the UK Government that CPI is now 0% and RPI is 1%.The pound is strong and has been for some time so imports should be more competitive, this does not reflect in the pricing of model railway products, so are we being taken for a ride ????

Some on this site take it as a personal affront when others criticize pricing, as I've said before each to their own people are entitled to their own opinion. Please respect the views of others before launching at them.

[jjb1970]

I think two issues are being mixed up here, manufacturers recommended prices and the prices charged by Hattons. The first one is outside the control of Hattons (except for their commissioned models) but for the second it is legitimate to price check Hattons with other retailers. Price is not the only factor, there are also considerations of customer service, product choice and stock availability to consider too. I must admit, I do not find Hattons to be especially cheap anymore and a few other retailers seem to be beating them on price. I've never had any complaints about Hattons customer service but I much prefer the web site of a box shifting retailer in Bristol and in terms of service from mail order suppliers I especially like Hereford Models and Kernow and have also had very good experiences from the aforesaid Model railways direct. What perhaps isn't so well recognised (yet) is that I am now finding local model shops to be competitive with the on-line box shifters however to benefit from that you need ready access to a local shop and sadly that is now something of a luxury for many.

[stovepipe]

Personally I'm not keen on their online Bargains section now containing some second-hand items, some in quite poor condition (missing major components like chimneys).

 

I prefer new not to be mixed with used under a single heading in a shop.

 

You can sort this out by clicking on advanced search and unchecking the 'Show Preowned' boxes.

[PCW]

To return the opening post I understand the question was about how one retailer prices their offerings in comparison to other retailers selling the same goods.

 

So, setting aside manufacturers price increases for another thread how are Hattons positioning themselves and why?

 

The how is apparent, no longer simply the best on price don't even bother looking elsewhere, as it appears it does often pay to look elsewhere, and surely this is to the good of everyone in the hobby?

 

as to the why we can only guess. My guess would be that as Hattons grew it locked in to a certain amount of 'scary overheads' that required a certain volume of stock to be sold at a certain margin. I think their bottom line is something like 4% profit after paying all the bills?

 

And then along came the Hornby situation, not only was there a lot less product being made for anyone to sell but also very different trade terms being imposed.

 

So, a shift in the wind and all of a sudden you are selling less stock to support a fair sized overhead, all of a sudden that 4% profit can vanish into thin air or even turn into a loss.

 

So, what to do?  At this stage I'd say hats off to Hattons (no pun intended!), we have seen them fight back on several fronts:

 

1. A lot more activity selling second hand

2. More activity commissioning their own products

3. Promoting decoder fitting and sound on every loco sold

 

Or, to put it another way lots of hard work to make money in different ways to 'simple' box shifting.  None of this is easy and also results could take a long time to filter through to the bottom line.

 

Meanwhile the overheads have to be paid (unless they can be trimmed?), and so possibly the box shifting operation is moving onto slightly higher margins?  This has problems of its own of course as the opening post notes how other retailers often have the same stock available at a more advantageous price.

 

This is really good for everyone as it means Hattons are being more creative and focused less on box shifting, at the same time other dealers have the chance to compete and thus grow their own market share and inject their own brand of creativity into the market for us all to enjoy.

 

I believe we will end up with a nice group of shops who are well accomplished with their online selling whilst still serving the local community and putting their own stamp of enthusiasm into the mix.

 

What Hattons bottom line will look like when all this has settled down is anyone's guess, are they simply too big?

Edited July 14, 2015 by PCW

[Les1952]

I don't remember Hattons as ALWAYS being the cheapest, and I've been buying from them for about forty years.

 

Recently they have USUALLY/OFTEN been the cheapest, but not universally.

 

Hatton's pricing has been at best idiosyncratic and at times downright unfathomable.  For a good many years items started off not that far below full retail, then the price dived as either Hattons found they had too many on the books or a manufacturer found the same and offered them a batch at deep discount (I never managed to work out which - if indeed either).  As the shelves emptied the price rose again, presumably reflecting that you weren't going to get the same cheaper elsewhere any more.

 

Having had a daughter living for seven years within walking distance of Hattons I found the best way at that time was to look up price and stock level online, then walk in with a shopping list and get locos tested before purchase- simples!   The corollary to that has always been to look in my local shops first, and to check alternative mail order supplies- and ONLY buy if cheapest at Hattons or out of stock locally.

 

I do miss the "Julie Andrews" moments when buying online or over the phone, though.  The current boxes may be well put together but don't have the same ambience.

 

Les

 

Unfortunately said daughter moved on and now lives nowhere near a model shop....

Edited July 14, 2015 by Les1952