timber P wagons

[theremin]

Hi

I am considering attempting to scratchbuild some timber P wagon in 00 scale probably from a parkside dundas plate wagon kit.

These wagons appear to be camera shy! Does anyone know of any good images of these wagons in books/magazines. Only found a few so far such as one in Don Rowlands 'British rail wagons' book. No luck on Paul Bartletts excellant wagon website unfortunately.

 

toby

[eastwestdivide]

One (B 455555) in Larkin's "BR Standard Freight Wagons - A Pictorial Survey", Bradford Barton, 1979, p60.

 

There's a drawing at http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/9-loads/9-timber.htm (scroll down a bit).

 

I seem to recall that some at least turned into runner wagons between BDVs with overhanging loads of long reinforcing bar.

 

PS you might want to delete your duplicate post at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/10229-timber-p-wagons/

[Fat Controller]

Hi

I am considering attempting to scratchbuild some timber P wagon in 00 scale probably from a parkside dundas plate wagon kit.

These wagons appear to be camera shy! Does anyone know of any good images of these wagons in books/magazines. Only found a few so far such as one in Don Rowlands 'British rail wagons' book. No luck on Paul Bartletts excellant wagon website unfortunately.

 

toby

You wouldn't end up with much of the Parkside wagon left apart from the wheelbase..The correct springs and bearings are now available from Wizard Models:-

http://www.wizardmodels.co.uk/FrameSetShop.php

These would need plate axleguards- perhaps the MJT ones.

The brakegear would need to be built from scratch- I'm currently looking at doing some BR vac-fitted Plates, using Parkside sides with stretched Chivers MDV underframes.

Good Luck

[Fat Controller]

One (B 455555) in Larkin's "BR Standard Freight Wagons - A Pictorial Survey", Bradford Barton, 1979, p60.

 

There's a drawing at http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/9-loads/9-timber.htm (scroll down a bit).

 

I seem to recall that some at least turned into runner wagons between BDVs with overhanging loads of long reinforcing bar.

I think it was the other BR Timber wagon- the purpose-built type- which ended up as runner wagons, with the ends cut off and bolted to the floor. This type are possibly going to be available from Cambrian in the near future.

[eastwestdivide]

I think it was the other BR Timber wagon- the purpose-built type- which ended up as runner wagons, with the ends cut off and bolted to the floor. This type are possibly going to be available from Cambrian in the near future.

Ah, my mistake - the photo I quoted is of the purpose-built type by the look of the number. Would the conversions have been B 93xxxx?

[Ramblin Rich]

I'm fairly sure there were plans & photos for Plate wagons including these conversions in one of the Model Railway Constructor Annuals. Unfortunately I seem to have lost track of a few of my books so I can't give you the details! Sorry this isn't very helpful but if it turns up before someone else comes along with info I'll let you know...

[Fat Controller]

I'm fairly sure there were plans & photos for Plate wagons including these conversions in one of the Model Railway Constructor Annuals. Unfortunately I seem to have lost track of a few of my books so I can't give you the details! Sorry this isn't very helpful but if it turns up before someone else comes along with info I'll let you know...

It's the 1983 MRC annual, which has a long article on Plates and conversions from them, written by Paul Bartlett and Trevor Mann. There is a drawing, but the two photos are credited to 'British Railways', which is why they're not on Paul's site, I presume. Other drawings in the article include:-

Dia 1/431 unfitted

Dia 1/432 fitted (LNER brake-gear)

Dia 1/439 Timber P

Dia 1/435 Coil D

All these are scale drawings by Trevor Mann

Condor conversion

LS Container conversion

Conflat P conversion

Coil F conversion

These are BR Weight Diagrams, of varying levels of detail, rescaled to 4mm.

The Condor/Timber P conversions, at least, retained their original numbers. BR policy about issuing new Diagrams and/or renumbering, was somewhat idiosyncratic. Major conversions might retain old numbers, yet something like the Coil X (Borails simply fitted with coil cradles made from the original bolsters) had both new numbers and Diagram issued.

[Fat Controller]

Hi

I am considering attempting to scratchbuild some timber P wagon in 00 scale probably from a parkside dundas plate wagon kit.

These wagons appear to be camera shy! Does anyone know of any good images of these wagons in books/magazines. Only found a few so far such as one in Don Rowlands 'British rail wagons' book. No luck on Paul Bartletts excellant wagon website unfortunately.

 

toby

Toby,

Could you drop me a PM

[66C]

Hi Toby

 

There has been some discussion of Timber Ps on the Scottish Modellers Yahoo group.

 

You can find a photo at:

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScottishModellers/photos/album/60884653/pic/1942847469/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

 

Phil Holman of DEMU is/was involved in a project to produce something in etched brass but I do not know whether this came to fruition. You should be able to make enquiries through the above Yahoo group. Phil is likely to be on the DEMU stand at Model Rail Scotland this coming weekend.

 

Regards

[eastwestdivide]

Found another photo, this time the right sort: B 933233 in a photo credited to British Railways, in Marsden's "Rolling Stock Recognition: 2 BR and Private Owner Wagons", Ian Allan, 1984 *

Annoyingly, there are blokes in flat caps standing in front of both sets of suspension.

If it's an official picture, presumably it's available in some archive somewhere - York? Not sure where we stand on copying it from the book.

It's listed under TOPS code UUV, although the photo's from much earlier than TOPS by the look of it. The caption says over 50 were converted in 1965 from former Condor container wagons, in turn conversions from Plates.

 

* a book which has many interesting photos, and not a few errors in captions.

[Guest Phil]

Very interesting thread and I have a vested interest in some of the wagons discussed.

 

I want to clarify the distinction between the Timber P and the dia 1/420.

 

The 22T Timber P design was a 1966 convert from redundant Conflat P stock, the majority having LNER style clasp brakegear, with five having the BR pattern brakegear.

Random numbers between B932775 and B935933 are listed in David Larkin's Wagons of the Final Years of British Railways "green book".

 

David Larkin advises the vehicles were redundant from 1980 and were shipped to Hoo Junction for scrapping.

 

 

 

Dia 1/420 15T timber wagons on the other hand were purpose built at Ashford in 1962 in the number series B455500 - B455580

 

I know that Barry "Karabuni" of Cambrian has suggested that he may produce a kit for the 1/420, so here are a few references and notes ;

 

On the cover of David Larkin's "green book" is a shot of empty B455555 at Lowestoft in September 1969, and inside is a shot of two Dia 1/420s at Portishead in 1972.

 

A number of the vehicles were converted to runner wagons (TOPS code RRV) by cutting the vertical end panels and securing them to the deck.

 

David Larkin in the "grey book" (69-82) publishes a picture of B455519 at Tring in September 1982.

 

 

My interest is actually in the private owner British Steel Company wagons (TOPS code PXV) which appear identical to the Dia 1/420 design, although these were apparently built by SRW in 1966.

 

Paul Bartlett's excellent website holds images of both the standard design (BSCO 40xx), as well as the lengthened, and heightened PXVs in the BSCO 42xx number series.

 

http://gallery6801.f...t/c1493324.html

 

 

The 15T vehicles were intended for use from Eastern ports with sawn timber, whereas the Timber Ps appear to have spent their career in Scotland hauling logs.

 

 

 

Perhaps Karabuni might like to comment on developments ?

[Guest Phil]

Meant to mention in my previous post of a photograph in the David Larkin "green book" of B933047 at Crianlarich in August 1970 loaded with timber, between other wagons of the same type.

[Fat Controller]

Further to Phil's comments about the purpose built 1/420 Timber wagons- these appeared on two distinct flows.

A Pool were allocated to baled pulp traffic from Portishead docks to St Anne's Board Mills at St Philip's Marsh, Bristol, which lasted from the 1960s to the early 1980s.

The rest worked on flows of bundled sawn timber from various East Anglian ports to various terminals in the Midlands, including Melton Mowbray and some depots normally known for steel traffic, such as Wolverhampton and Wednesfield. They shared this traffic with Rectanks and fitted plates- the load was normally sheeted.

[LNERGE]

What is this wagon?

http://daveseastmidlandsandlincsrailwayarchive.fotopic.net/p58568936.html

 

I don't seem to be able to find anything about it...

[Fat Controller]

What is this wagon?

http://daveseastmidlandsandlincsrailwayarchive.fotopic.net/p58568936.html

 

I don't seem to be able to find anything about it...

I've never seen one of those before...

The underframe, with the bracing strut between the axleguard and the solebar, looks familiar- LMS Long Low, perhaps?

[theremin]

wow guys!

thanks for the great response!

and i was thinking this would be a simple conversion of a plate wagon. Having never attempted a scratchbuild before i can see this is going to turn into quite a complicated operation.

Having browsed through the prototype galleries recently i came across these two pictures of derailed timber P's

in nicktuck159's west highland gallery

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/1265659144/gallery_7279_714_36172.jpg

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/1265659144/gallery_7279_714_63853.jpg

 

toby

 

 

[Michael Edge]

You could start with our kit for the Conflat P (£14), as has been said already there isn't much of the original 22T plate wagon left. The Wizard models axleboxes were produced (from my pattern) for this kit.

Michael Edge

Judith Edge kits

[Wizard of the Moor]

What is this wagon?

http://daveseastmidl.../p58568936.html

 

I don't seem to be able to find anything about it...

 

Trevor Mann and Peter Fidczuk identify this wagon as being a 1966 conversion of either plate, double bolster or tube wagons built between 1928 and 1936. The conversions were undertaken by W H Davis and numbered 74 in total.

 

The wagons were used for carrying cut timber between the east cost ports and the Ashworth Kirk premises at Colwick, Notts.

 

Withdrawal took place in 1971-72.

 

HTH,

 

James

[LNERGE]

Interesting. I wonder if it had been knocked out of a train through defect or was at Belvoir Junction on a revenue move?

[karabuni]

...

 

I know that Barry "Karabuni" of Cambrian has suggested that he may produce a kit for the 1/420, so here are a few references and notes ;

 

On the cover of David Larkin's "green book" is a shot of empty B455555 at Lowestoft in September 1969, and inside is a shot of two Dia 1/420s at Portishead in 1972.

 

A number of the vehicles were converted to runner wagons (TOPS code RRV) by cutting the vertical end panels and securing them to the deck.

 

David Larkin in the "grey book" (69-82) publishes a picture of B455519 at Tring in September 1982.

 

 

My interest is actually in the private owner British Steel Company wagons (TOPS code PXV) which appear identical to the Dia 1/420 design, although these were apparently built by SRW in 1966.

 

Paul Bartlett's excellent website holds images of both the standard design (BSCO 40xx), as well as the lengthened, and heightened PXVs in the BSCO 42xx number series.

 

http://gallery6801.f...t/c1493324.html

 

 

The 15T vehicles were intended for use from Eastern ports with sawn timber, whereas the Timber Ps appear to have spent their career in Scotland hauling logs.

 

 

 

Perhaps Karabuni might like to comment on developments ?

 

The D1/420 is still in the "not sure when" class of forthcoming kits at the moment.

There is one of the BSC wagons at the Rutland Railway Museum, but haven't been to see it yet.

 

Barry

Cambrian Models

[Guest Phil]

The D1/420 is still in the "not sure when" class of forthcoming kits at the moment.

There is one of the BSC wagons at the Rutland Railway Museum, but haven't been to see it yet.

 

Barry

Cambrian Models

 

 

Thanks Barry

I'll be waiting !!!

 

To be honest I was thinking of having a go at resin casting the ends, but I'm probably going to tackle the lengthened BSCO 42xx series which had different ends to the Dia 1/420.

 

As a matter of interest Barry, do you know if the BSCO 40xx were originally Dia 1/420, and possibly visited SRW for modification, or just a "knock off" of the BR Ashford design ?

 

 

Thanks again

 

Phil

[Scottish Modeller]

wow guys!

thanks for the great response!

and i was thinking this would be a simple conversion of a plate wagon. Having never attempted a scratchbuild before i can see this is going to turn into quite a complicated operation.

Having browsed through the prototype galleries recently i came across these two pictures of derailed timber P's

in nicktuck159's west highland gallery

 

http://www.rmweb.co....9_714_36172.jpg

 

http://www.rmweb.co....9_714_63853.jpg

 

toby

 

 

Hi Toby,

 

As mentioned somewhere above...

 

Timber P - a possible kit.

 

Yes - there is the possibility the these may be produced as a kit.

 

At the moment we are still working to accumulate info and photos.

 

Model wise - a scratchbuilt model was made to explore the possible ways to produce the kit.

 

At the moment it is a little bit delayed with further progress because of the potential difficulties we have encountered.

 

If you have a High Res photo/sacn and look at the cross sections of the uprights - you will see the source of the problem.

 

The uprights are going to be hard to reproduce - regardless of what material is used.

 

Etch would need to be able to bend in 4 dimensions at some points.

 

The nearest way I can describe the section is as a U shaped section on it's side with a parrallell Z shape section attached to to the top of the U sections but rear facing.

 

We have thought of a casting, but it will be too bendable. We looked at resin as well but it's too brittle.

 

If it happens the kit will be a mixed materail 'Set of Parts' as opposed to a full kit.

 

So far the materials include etch brass, cast whitemetal or brass and resin moulded.

 

Doing it a a plastic moulding will not be possible due to the problem of gatting it out of the injection moulding tool.

 

So - Not dead - Just between energetic bursts of activity.

 

Thanks

 

ps - see also:

 

http://eastofarisaig.blogspot.com/2007/07/timber-p-wagons.html

[Mark Saunders]

As a matter of interest Barry, do you know if the BSCO 40xx were originally Dia 1/420, and possibly visited SRW for modification, or just a "knock off" of the BR Ashford design ?

 

 

The SRW built ones appear to be a copy of the BR diagram, however I am not sure about the stanchions!

 

Mark Saunders

[theremin]

A kit! that would be great

not sure my modelling skills are up to a scratchbuild although i'll have to curb my obsession to have a rake of them for some time!

thanks again to everyone who has contributed.

 

toby

 

 

 

[Guest Phil]

As a matter of interest Barry, do you know if the BSCO 40xx were originally Dia 1/420, and possibly visited SRW for modification, or just a "knock off" of the BR Ashford design ?

 

The SRW built ones appear to be a copy of the BR diagram, however I am not sure about the stanchions!

 

Mark Saunders

 

Thanks for that Mark.

 

I was speculating on whether the BR owned vehicles might have changed hands via SRW, having modifications in the process, or whether they were indeed a new batch of the same design.

 

Being naturally sceptic, I wondered whether the distinctive pattern of strengthening ribs on the end panels might be the giveaway.

 

Thanks again