Buckingham West

[Ray H]

Thanks for that. I thought you'd hit on the magic formula of one colour fits all that had been escaping me!

 

I only have the option of turning wagons manually and that is done when they're removed from the track in the fiddle yard having just arrived in a train. They're then put in any vacant space on one of five shelves. Subsequent trains are made up from a single shelf's content - which is conveniently the right length to hold the maximum number of wagons for a train (due to loop lengths) - with wagons which don't meet the train's selection criteria left on the shelf to be added to the next consist using that shelf's content where they do meet the selection criteria.

 

Do you deal with individual wagons (and that includes vans, etc.) that are destined for specific rail served industries at your stations? I have added a dedicated colour on my wagon tag to indicate where the wagon should be placed in order to accommodate this - the wagons destined for these industries don't necessarily have any general markings on them to distinguish them from other wagons of a similar type.

[Richard Mawer]

Thanks for that. I thought you'd hit on the magic formula of one colour fits all that had been escaping me!

 

I only have the option of turning wagons manually and that is done when they're removed from the track in the fiddle yard having just arrived in a train. They're then put in any vacant space on one of five shelves. Subsequent trains are made up from a single shelf's content - which is conveniently the right length to hold the maximum number of wagons for a train (due to loop lengths) - with wagons which don't meet the train's selection criteria left on the shelf to be added to the next consist using that shelf's content where they do meet the selection criteria.

 

Do you deal with individual wagons (and that includes vans, etc.) that are destined for specific rail served industries at your stations? I have added a dedicated colour on my wagon tag to indicate where the wagon should be placed in order to accommodate this - the wagons destined for these industries don't necessarily have any general markings on them to distinguish them from other wagons of a similar type.

 

Ray, there is no magic formula. It works on the principle of the operator not knowing what loads there might be in any given wagon or van. The operator puts where they want to.

 

There are private sidings at Evenley and Buckingham West. If there has been nothing in those for some time (or if the yard is getting full) then the operator is free to put wagons in the private sidings. It has to make sense so no molasses tanker in the agricultural engineers! But apart from that anything goes. So in that respect placement in the yards is random.

 

I should add that no coal wagons are dealt with by the coloured dots, only general goods. Coal only goes by the coal train and then just 4 coal wagons a day go up the branch on the pick up goods. Empties go back on a specific train. At the end of each day coal loads are removed from the wagons in the stations and are placed in the ones in the storage loop transforming the empties train into a full one. Parcels and perishables are also none standard.

 

Some specialist wagons (such as cattle or horses and carriage wagons) have coloured dots and can travel by normal goods trains, but this is overruled by timetable requirements where they go by special trains on certain days. So for example cattle wagons are restricted on the afternoon and evening trains the day before a market day because there are specific cattle trains on those days and it wouldn't work if all the cattle wagons were "locked away" in other freights stuck in the storage loops.

 

Like I said, it is more about sorting wagons to make up a train than it is about the possible loads those wagons might be carrying.

 

Rich

[St Enodoc]

Ray, there is no magic formula. It works on the principle of the operator not knowing what loads there might be in any given wagon or van. The operator puts where they want to.

 

There are private sidings at Evenley and Buckingham West. If there has been nothing in those for some time (or if the yard is getting full) then the operator is free to put wagons in the private sidings. It has to make sense so no molasses tanker in the agricultural engineers! But apart from that anything goes. So in that respect placement in the yards is random.

 

I should add that no coal wagons are dealt with by the coloured dots, only general goods. Coal only goes by the coal train and then just 4 coal wagons a day go up the branch on the pick up goods. Empties go back on a specific train. At the end of each day coal loads are removed from the wagons in the stations and are placed in the ones in the storage loop transforming the empties train into a full one. Parcels and perishables are also none standard.

 

Some specialist wagons (such as cattle or horses and carriage wagons) have coloured dots and can travel by normal goods trains, but this is overruled by timetable requirements where they go by special trains on certain days. So for example cattle wagons are restricted on the afternoon and evening trains the day before a market day because there are specific cattle trains on those days and it wouldn't work if all the cattle wagons were "locked away" in other freights stuck in the storage loops.

 

Like I said, it is more about sorting wagons to make up a train than it is about the possible loads those wagons might be carrying.

 

Rich

I'm with Rich on this. Although I use playing cards not coloured dots, my wagons get routed to the station not so any specific siding there. It is up to the driver/shunter to decide where to put them. I think the more specific directions would work for a smaller layout - the typical shunting plank or a simple terminus to fiddle yard, but on a multi-station/fiddle yard layout like mine or Buckingham West that level of detail isn't needed.

[Richard Mawer]

I am not trying to say there is any right or wrong ways of running a freight system. I think it is horses for courses.

 

If I had a smaller layout with more time for shunting and more room in yards then I think I might well be looking for a load-driven system. Something where demand on layout for both incoming and outgoing loads decided what wagons were needed on any particular day.

 

However, for my layout I need to move wagons around in quite large numbers and in quite a simple fashion. I do not have room for cards, nor the time (and eyesight) for reading multiple details off wagons.

 

Time will tell how we get on with the system. Until now, the operators have just selected the right number of wagons, mostly in the consist sitting in a siding or two, and when a train arrived it was just a question of filling up sidings to clear the arrivals line.

[Ray H]

Thanks for the comments which I can both recognise and appreciate. I was just hopeful that Rich might have hit on a (simple) system that has so far eluded me.

 

Let's leave it there to avoid disturbing the natural flow of Rich's thread.

[Richard Mawer]

MORE MOGUL MADNESS

 

Hmmm. That 43xx is playing up again between 33 and 50% of the time when clockwise on the continuous run. The pony truck derails. I've tried loads of things as you will see from earlier posts. I have two of them and they fit the bill in size and age.

 

I managed to get them to actually pull something (the Bachmann chassis has poor adhesion) by removing the Bachmann motor and fitting a Hornby motorised tender, but the pony trucks are so unreliable. I improved the running by adding shims between the drivers and chassis. That reduced the boddy waggle due to the amount of play on the drivers. That seems to be the main issue. It helped, but not enough. The shims also increase resistance on the drivers. With two thicker ones in, the drivers occassionally stalled and the tender pushed the loco with frozen wheels. A huge skid. I ended up taking one out.

 

I added lead to the pony, and again mild improvement, but not enough.

 

The latest idea has been to move the pivot point back. This should have reduced the effects of waggle on the pony. I made a plasticard extension to the pony and screwed in into the first screw of the keeper plate.

 

In essence, it hasn't sorted it either.

 

Even with two shims in (one each side) restricting side play on the drivers to the point of the ocassional skid, the blessed pony will not stay on the rails at the double junction.

 

It works going anti-clockwise, but not clockwise.

 

Option A try and spring load it to the left. It always derails to the right.

 

Option B ditch it and buy something that does work.

 

I have two 43's but have already ditched one of them and bought a 72xx. So what else is there 1930's or earlier, not a 4-6-0 that would have hauled local/semi-fast passenger trains? I already have a Bulldog, Dukedog, 51xx and two Dean Goods.

[Ray H]

Is there anyway that you can put a slight cant on the outer rail at the said junction? I'm beginning to wonder if your problem could be a combination of track and loco when you say that the derailments are at the same place - and, presumably, only there.

[Richard Mawer]

Hi Ray. Yes it is only in one place and it is only the two moguls that do it. Others used to but I changed the diamond crossings for single slips and that cured everything except these two locos. They are renowned for it. There is a thread on here. The answer is Comet chassis, but I've never built a loco and want to get on with other stuff not build licos. Each to their own. There is no scope for a cant I'm afraid. My overnight thoughts are to simply fix the pony solid or to change the wheels.

 

I have three 2-8-0s and a 2-8-2 that go everywhere. Do I need a pony that swivels?

 

I have a number of far more delicate locos that derail at the first sogn of poor track or slightly open joints, but they all go through those junctions ok. There is just something about the swing between that chassis and its wheels and that track configuration.

 

I suppose I just need to keep trial and error.

[Stubby47]

Silly idea time... can you add a piece of the metal you've used for the inclines under the offending slips and add a magnet to the pony truck ?

[Richard Mawer]

Silly idea time... can you add a piece of the metal you've used for the inclines under the offending slips and add a magnet to the pony truck ?

Now that's a new idea. There's a lot of merit in that.

 

This morning's appointment is a late one so I had a few minutes to spare and decided to trial one of the things I mentioned in my reply to Ray. Withe aid of a blob of blutac I fixed the pony dead ahead. She ran straight through the junctions both ways numerous times without any derailments. I tried with 1, 2 and no shims and all worked perfectly. I put her round the dumbell and wasn't sure if there was some pull on the blutac or not. They are 4th radius set track so I hope ok. The eight couples go round ok. I have yet to trial points in the loco yard. They are small radious peco. All the running line ones are medium or curved.

 

Fingers crossed but fixing not floating might, just might, be the answer.

[checkrail]

We sooooo ​need a nice new version of the 43xx from Bachmann.

[Richard Mawer]

MOGUL UPDATE

 

Success - so far - well best yet.

 

I've been away for a couple of weeks and then family stuff, so finally back with the layout.

 

Well first off, it didn't like the pony being fixed (0-8-0 effectively). Just couldn't take the curves in the opposite direction even with reasonably large radius.

 

But working off Chris Chimer's idea I just simply added another piece of lead on top of the rest already fixed to the pony, but this time it filled the gap under the leading edge of the chassis. This prevents any upward movement and I presume adds some resistance to sideways movement but doesn't prevent it.

 

So far she runs satisfactorily in both directions on the continuous run section.

 

I had previously seriously weighted the ponys but always thought there needed to be at least a little vertical play. Clearly not needed.

 

Now I can hopefully press on.

[Richard Mawer]

STARTING THE SCENERY

 

Well it had to happen at some point. Although I still have a few signals to finish, I am almost out of well known territory and am entering unchartered waters. I have never used a backscene on any layout as a teenager.

 

I needed nearly 19 meters of backscene just to go round the outside of the room. I haven't thought of what, if amything, I ought to do round the Buckingham board. I am very impressed with the service from John at Art-printers Ltd. His products are known as ID Backscenes. He not only gave me a good deal on the price because of the size, but he blended in the various packs I chose, so that they connected. He even airbrushed out some more modern buildings.

 

I chose to use the vinyl photo prints instead of paper. They are self adhesive and are very easy to stick down if you use water on the board. I am using 3mm foam board supplies by Cut Plastic Sheeting upon John's recommendation. They cut the board to size.

 

All in all, I am impressed.

 

Now all I had to do was work out how to deal with the gradients and how to mount the boards on the wall.

 

The gradients are quite simple: keep the skyline level and cut the bottom.

 

The mounting is by way of self-adhesive velcro. I have stuck 1 part at a 45 degree angle on the wall and the other part at the opposing 45 degrees on the back of the board so it forms a cross and allows for some repositioning. I hope this sticks in place.

 

My youngest daughter has just finished an arts degree so I used her abilities to assist in trimming the boards and vinyl. Applying the vinyl to the board is quite tricky. It is certainly a two person job and best done with the board wet to allow a bit of movement.

 

I am really impressed with the results and look forward to moving on with the scenery.

 

 

 

The village of Evenley is just to the far left.

 

 

 

The section done so far leads to the outskirts of Brackley. The start of the town is just on the far right.

[Richard Mawer]

BACKSCENES UPDATE

 

Ok so the idea of the crosses of velcro, was good in theory. That way I had some room to adjust the position a bit.

 

In practice, the self adhesive velcro stuck to the foamboard ok, but this morning, the view accross the fields wasn't so good. The pieces that should have been stuck to the wall, weren't. They just weren't sticky enough. The boards had all come away with the velcro crosses happily stuck together, but nothing stuck to the wall.

 

I'm not now sure why I was thinking I would need to remove them at any time (hence velcro), so the remedy this morning was a hot glue gun. I have glued the velcro to the wall and also glued the boards directly to the wall in other places.

 

I am reasonably confident they will still be there in the morning, but...........

[Richard Mawer]

......... and yes they were still up! Hot glue to the rescue.

[Richard Mawer]

Had a good operating session the other night with Paul and Roger, friends from the club. The 43xx behaved perfectly. Butter wouldn't melt........ The issue was one of the 28s wouldn't pull the loaded coal train. Weight is needed in the boiler me thinks. Another job to do. A couple more wagons need looking at too.

 

But apart from that, the operation side is going quite well.

[Richard Mawer]

GANTRY

 

I put it off for ages, but in the end, it wasn't too difficult.

 

The gantry for the inner Homes at Buckingham is near as dammit complete. Its an Airfix/Dapol gantry kit (comes as grey plastic - why grey??). The posts are from two Ratio bracket signals, as are the arms. Plastic glue bonded the posts and gantry together. I pivoted the arms using very old Hornby (as in 40 years old) track pins and cut offs of Ratio spru for the pivots on the back through which the operating wire is passed. That is all standard practice for my sognals. Obviously I couldn't just pass the wire through the base this time so I used rocking arms (like see-saws) inside the gantry frame, pivoted using wire set in notches in the frame and glued in place. The rockers are cut from 2mm plastic sheet. The wires on the outer ends just pass straight through the base (2 each end) to 4 servos stuck under the base plates.

 

 

 

The gantry spans three tracks. It has three route options for arrivals at Buckingham West on the Up Main (middle line of the three). The central taller post is for the main platform 1. The other two are for the bi-directional central platform 2 and the Goods Reception.

 

The 4th arm, slightly set apart is over the Down Main, but faces Up. The Down Main is also used as the headshunt for all station moves between platforms, the carriage sidings, the Goods Reception and the Loco yard. This signal is therefore a Backing Signal. It has a smallish arm painted solid red, with two holes in it.

 

 

 

This arm is pulled off for all wrong direction movements off the Down Main back into the platforms, Loco etc. In reality it would have been either a series of separate arms or as here (because there are 8 possible destinations) with a stencil style route indicator.

 

Luckily for me, the gantry faces away from the operator. I can only see the rear, so I do not have to make the route indicator work.

 

 

The signals are pulled off from the frame in the normal fashion. That action actually feeds power into the chosen line. However, the arms will not fall until the corresponding route is set up as well.

 

 

 

In this final photo, the goods yard headshunt is on the left. The Up Main is in the centre and the Down Main is on the right. I still need to paint the rocker arms white. Some are yellow. I also need a shunt signal on the left of the gantry. I don't know off hand whether in 1935 (ish) that would be a small arm, or a disc. I hope someone can advise me. I could make an arm move but I can't work how to make it operating in terms of trigger. I wouldn't want to switch it and if I did a TOTI then it would trigger in both directions. If I did a directional thing with a diode, it would trigger even if the loco were in the yard, not at the gantry. Its all too fraught with danger. I hope I can use a disc (guessing red on white) and therefore just have a dummy. All the other shunting signals will be dummy.

 

I only have one more signal to make.

[Ray H]

That looks good Rich. I really must get on with my signals!

 

I'm not that familiar with GW signalling - in fact I'm not familiar at all! - but I suspect that you'd possibly need a signal with added visibility - for that read higher than a ground disc simply because of the curve on the approach to it.

[Richard Mawer]

That looks good Rich. I really must get on with my signals!

 

I'm not that familiar with GW signalling - in fact I'm not familiar at all! - but I suspect that you'd possibly need a signal with added visibility - for that read higher than a ground disc simply because of the curve on the approach to it.

 

Good point, although it is only a head shunt. I think a dummy disc mounted on the left of the gantry might suffice. Would it be on the top of the gantry proper or would it be mounted on the leg to the side, so at cab height?

[The Stationmaster]

GANTRY

 

I put it off for ages, but in the end, it wasn't too difficult.

 

The gantry for the inner Homes at Buckingham is near as dammit complete. Its an Airfix/Dapol gantry kit (comes as grey plastic - why grey??). The posts are from two Ratio bracket signals, as are the arms. Plastic glue bonded the posts and gantry together. I pivoted the arms using very old Hornby (as in 40 years old) track pins and cut offs of Ratio spru for the pivots on the back through which the operating wire is passed. That is all standard practice for my sognals. Obviously I couldn't just pass the wire through the base this time so I used rocking arms (like see-saws) inside the gantry frame, pivoted using wire set in notches in the frame and glued in place. The rockers are cut from 2mm plastic sheet. The wires on the outer ends just pass straight through the base (2 each end) to 4 servos stuck under the base plates.

 

 

IMG_6280.JPG

 

The gantry spans three tracks. It has three route options for arrivals at Buckingham West on the Up Main (middle line of the three). The central taller post is for the main platform 1. The other two are for the bi-directional central platform 2 and the Goods Reception.

 

The 4th arm, slightly set apart is over the Down Main, but faces Up. The Down Main is also used as the headshunt for all station moves between platforms, the carriage sidings, the Goods Reception and the Loco yard. This signal is therefore a Backing Signal. It has a smallish arm painted solid red, with two holes in it.

 

IMG_6281.JPG

 

 

This arm is pulled off for all wrong direction movements off the Down Main back into the platforms, Loco etc. In reality it would have been either a series of separate arms or as here (because there are 8 possible destinations) with a stencil style route indicator.

 

Luckily for me, the gantry faces away from the operator. I can only see the rear, so I do not have to make the route indicator work.

 

IMG_6288.JPG

 

The signals are pulled off from the frame in the normal fashion. That action actually feeds power into the chosen line. However, the arms will not fall until the corresponding route is set up as well.

 

 

IMG_6290.JPG

 

In this final photo, the goods yard headshunt is on the left. The Up Main is in the centre and the Down Main is on the right. I still need to paint the rocker arms white. Some are yellow. I also need a shunt signal on the left of the gantry. I don't know off hand whether in 1935 (ish) that would be a small arm, or a disc. I hope someone can advise me. I could make an arm move but I can't work how to make it operating in terms of trigger. I wouldn't want to switch it and if I did a TOTI then it would trigger in both directions. If I did a directional thing with a diode, it would trigger even if the loco were in the yard, not at the gantry. Its all too fraught with danger. I hope I can use a disc (guessing red on white) and therefore just have a dummy. All the other shunting signals will be dummy.

 

I only have one more signal to make.

 

 

Ground dsc signal (red arm on white inevitably because the GWR did not use yellow arm ground discs) and put it at ground level where the Shunter actually stands a chance of seeing it instead of craning his neck looking for it up on the gantry.

[Ray H]

I said that I knew nothing about GWR signalling!  

 

Presumably the signal would remain clear all the time shunting was taking place and only be returned to danger if there was an incoming into or departing train leaving the yard. I suspect that there might be a similar shunt signal towards the headshunt with similar restrictions (or otherwise) on its operation.

 

Mike: would the shunter ride on the train on the inside of the curve so the driver could see him? Would the shunter signal to the driver for the move into the headshunt to stop once he (the shunter) could see the disc from his position on the train?

[Richard Mawer]

Ground dsc signal (red arm on white inevitably because the GWR did not use yellow arm ground discs) and put it at ground level where the Shunter actually stands a chance of seeing it instead of craning his neck looking for it up on the gantry.

Thanks Mike. A very useful contribution as ever.

[The Stationmaster]

I said that I knew nothing about GWR signalling!  

 

Presumably the signal would remain clear all the time shunting was taking place and only be returned to danger if there was an incoming into or departing train leaving the yard. I suspect that there might be a similar shunt signal towards the headshunt with similar restrictions (or otherwise) on its operation.

 

Mike: would the shunter ride on the train on the inside of the curve so the driver could see him? Would the shunter signal to the driver for the move into the headshunt to stop once he (the shunter) could see the disc from his position on the train?

 

Probably be left off all the time when shunting towards the yard.  

 

Much too dangerous for the Shunters to be on the inside of the curve unless there was a proper, wider, interval between the siding and the adjacent running (in which case they might be on that side but that would mean them having to crossover to the other side further into the yard which would also be dangerous.  So most likely they'd be on the outside - the Under Shunter would be where he could see the signal (if there was any doubt about it being 'off' and the Head Shunter would be a in a position to relay a handsignal from the Under Shunter to the Driver - using a whistle or stepping further away from the vehicles being shunted (if there was room) in order to do so.

 

At one yard where I worked our Shunters had the rather daft habit of always shunting with long rafts of wagons - apparently they considered it quicker to shunt with a raft of 50 than to do the job with two rafts of 25 where they could actually see each other and the Driver, we only had the occasional derailment as a result (although we had derailments for other reasons of course.  At one time we averaged one every two weeks and they were on Sundays when I was On Call so rather easy in those circumstances for me to get in 14 hours pay before the official payment week had even started, those were the days).  But overall I think passenger yard shunting could be far more dangerous than some freight marshalling yards especially if you had idiot Shunters (alas I did have one or two of them).

[Richard Mawer]

Mike, you need to write a book (if you haven't already) about all this stuff. It needs to be shared or it will be eventually lost.

[MarshLane]

Hi Richard,

Thought it was about time I added comment - I've kept following along in the background, but things are coming on well!  That gantry looks a nice addition to the layout!  Well done.

 

Following with interest!  Did you sort the tone of your bells out in the end?
 

Rich