Derekstuart Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 (edited) Forgive me if I am missing something here, but I did say "..machined correctly..." I understand Andy's point about a gauge having to accommodate a range of rail widths- so perhaps I should have said "...machined appropriately for the rail used..." Most turnouts made are (as far as I an see) of 'regular' design (and for the benefit of anyone reading this, that's the type where the curve stops before the check rails) so if the gauge is machined with X gap between the outer grooves and Y gap between the inner grooves then should it not work fine? I do appreciate that theory and reality are not always compatible and I am seeking to understand rather than to tell me greatly more experienced people than I are wrong. I have been using CL/Exactoscale check chairs and 3pt gauges to make sure running rails are correctly spaced- I appreciate this is the opposite way that you advocate, Martin/John. NB I do have the flange gauge strip of metal as well as a square block thing with a box on top with another check gauge for setting wing gap and angle- don't get on with it though, as well as a 'proper' check gauge all from S4 stores). As for 00- would 00 turnout builders not fall into 2 broad catagories- those copying Peco style for economy reasons and which you can probably set everything with minimal gauges, and those who want to achieve much better looking turnouts with appropriate curving and better checkrail gaps. I would imagine (and this is just from what I've read) that the former is significantly larger than the latter, hence why I think there doesn't appear to be much support for 00 gauge modellers working to finer standards. Let's face it, if you are even contemplating 00SF/4SF (or EM/P4 for that matter) it means you already know enough to know what you previously knew was known to not be quite right and as such you are probably able to find better sources of information than relying on Mr Siddle's association anyway. Edited October 29, 2015 by Derekstuart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted October 29, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 29, 2015 if the gauge is machined with X gap between the outer grooves and Y gap between the inner grooves then should it not work fine? Hi Derek, Yes, if you use it only as a construction jig, and only on track which doesn't need gauge widening. But you can't really call it a "gauge" because you can't use it to test existing track for compliance. If it won't fit on some existing track which is causing trouble, it is very difficult to see which rail is wrong, and very easy to adjust the wrong one. If you have enjoyed constructing track using a crossing flangeway shim and separate check gauges, you wouldn't want to go back to using clumsy multi-slot roller gauges. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 and, ideally, both slots should be spring loaded to force the rail hard against the gauge piece. Fixed width slots must have some clearance to accommodate the widest rail that is in tolerance. Problem is, the sales volume for gauges is very small. Andy If you are building chaired track, which is laid at an angle, then you need a track gauge where the rail head can rotate. If the gauge holds the rail too tight it bends the rail in the chairs to the vertical, once the gauge(s) are removed the rail relaxes back in to the inclination and narrows the track gauge. The next problem is that code 82 flatbottom rail head is narrower than code 75 bullhead rail (both as supplied by C&L) No point for a spring 3 point gauge as it automatically gauge widens if needed. I do have some early Studiolith and C&L track gauges which are sprung, will give problems with chaired track if the tension is too tight Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Derek I do not like roller gauges that have any groves other than the outer 2, they are a pain in my mind especially if one either makes their own or buys ready built common crossings. The wing rail gauge not only allows you to set the wing rail but is also very usefull in aligning the knuckle in the common crossing with the vee. As for the Exactoscale P4 check chairs, from the little I understand must be set with a check rail gauge in P4/EM/00sf gauges, the stock rail will then be set at the correct distance automatically With 00 (universal/intermediate) gauge it is best practice to use a check rail gauge if available, though using a wing rail gauge normally works due to the coarse scale of these gauges. Others may use different methods, which are fine if the end result is within the standards required I may have misunderstood the point you were making but the build standard in 00 gauge should be as good as you would use in P4/EM etc, the tolerances may be larger but should be built as accurately (sorry if I have got the wrong end of the stick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 If you are building chaired track, which is laid at an angle, then you need a track gauge where the rail head can rotate. If the gauge holds the rail too tight it bends the rail in the chairs to the vertical, once the gauge(s) are removed the rail relaxes back in to the inclination and narrows the track gauge. Hi John, Yes, I bet it would too! I'm thinking of vertical rail. I don't think I would recommend any sort of roller gauge for building track and turnouts with inclined rail. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Andy Most are OK and roller gauges do have their uses, Its the modern 3 point ones I had trouble with. But with everything else once you are aware of a problem you can work on a solution Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted October 29, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 29, 2015 I don't think I would recommend any sort of roller gauge for building track and turnouts with inclined rail. Hi Andy, The rail head is (or should be) well rounded. Providing the slot depth engages only the head part, it is possible for the rail to be inclined at 1:20 (which is not a big angle) without any problems, even in a sprung gauge provided the spring is not too strong: regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekstuart Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 As ever, a very informative thread. I am awaiting some new rail and timbers from CL tomorrow, together with some new gauges. I shall see how much of a pigs ear I can make of it this time. John- no, of course I wasn't implying that 00 is made to lower standards; I know that's a commonly held belief by many, but I know it not to be the case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Anyone looking for 1 mm shims might want to take a look at their craft knives and utility knives. I've found quite a few blades that are 0.0197" thick which, as every schoolboy and schoolgirl knows, is PDC to 0.5 mm If you don't have a micrometer, stack up as many blades as you can, measure, and divide by the number in the stack. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekstuart Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 In respect of using roller gauges for wing and check rails- or perhaps in respect of NOT using them..., there's a good explanation of it here from a helpful chap named Martin.... http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/97424-a-beginners-00-sf-and-the-ends-of-wing-and-check-rails/ Post #22 Apparently prior to this post, there are another 96 copies on RMW... does this count as 98th? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Anyway, having built a layout to DOOGAF standards, I found it doesn't really work very well, despite having pushed all the wheels out. there's odd bits of paintwork where I can't get certain locos to run, so have decided to convert to 4-SF or whatever it's called this week. Normal points shouldn't bee too much of a problem to adjust, but my double slips have always been a problem so have to be replaced anyway, same with my curved double junction, so not too much to adjust. Just 40-odd coaches, 100 wagons and a couple of dozen locos to re-set the back-to-backs... It got a bit tedious trying to work out how to get some of the modern mechanisms apart! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 In a sister thread i said I would build a B7 turnout to 00sf standards that RMweb members could borrow for a couple of weeks so they can evaluate the gauge for themselves. I still need to give it a good wash and build a thin transit box, will be ready for use early next week. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Anyway, having built a layout to DOOGAF standards, I found it doesn't really work very well, despite having pushed all the wheels out. there's odd bits of paintwork where I can't get certain locos to run, so have decided to convert to 4-SF or whatever it's called this week. Normal points shouldn't bee too much of a problem to adjust, but my double slips have always been a problem so have to be replaced anyway, same with my curved double junction, so not too much to adjust. Just 40-odd coaches, 100 wagons and a couple of dozen locos to re-set the back-to-backs... It got a bit tedious trying to work out how to get some of the modern mechanisms apart! Roythebus Having a set of gauges other than a roller gauge, does make building easier, if using the building method adopted by Gordon (common crossings altered only on turnouts) then the alterations needed are minor, I would keep the gauge narrowing through complexes. Diamonds and slips will need total rebuilding, but the benefits will be obvious Good luck changing all the wheels back Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Anyway, having built a layout to DOOGAF standards, I found it doesn't really work very well, despite having pushed all the wheels out. there's odd bits of paintwork where I can't get certain locos to run, so have decided to convert to 4-SF or whatever it's called this week. Oh no, don't tell me that even paintwork is susceptible to the gauge wars. I'll model in black & white, that should solve it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Paintwork, predictive spol chick on new Applemac! Pointwork!! Switches, you silly American machine! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 (edited) Yes Hayfield, I know the slips need rebuilding anyway. With 1mm flange ways on the common crossings it should be relatively easy to alter the b-2-b on the check rails on the points. We ha d a chat about this sort of thing at the Folkestone show last year. I don't intend replacing all the plain track! I've ordered a set of gauges from C&L so should start work on the project next week. It's a pity nobody done 3-point gauges for DOOGAF when I started that about 5 years ago, it would have made life a lot easier. Edited November 7, 2015 by roythebus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Nickey Line Posted November 10, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) It's a pity nobody done 3-point gauges for DOOGAF when I started that about 5 years ago, it would have made life a lot easier. Three-point 00 track gauge from Slater's, been available for donkey's years... https://slatersplastikard.com/accessories/trackMaterials.php ... and only 4 quid a pop. Edited November 10, 2015 by whinge-n-moan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LooseHead Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Just hope that wasn't consigned to the same black hole as the rest of their 4mm stuff ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Nickey Line Posted November 11, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 11, 2015 Just hope that wasn't consigned to the same black hole as the rest of their 4mm stuff ... Nope, MSE stock them too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Anyway, I'm about to try to regorge my paintwork next week and get rid of predictive text. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 (edited) 72.JPG In a sister thread i said I would build a B7 turnout to 00sf standards that RMweb members could borrow for a couple of weeks so they can evaluate the gauge for themselves. I still need to give it a good wash and build a thin transit box, will be ready for use early next week. Had other things going on this week which has stopped me sorting out a suitable re-usable packet, still should have it done by Monday. The turnout has been washed and is available to anyone who wishes to try it free of charge except for posting, a few house rules 1 Unless otherwise agreed return the turnout within 2 weeks of receiving it. 2 Do not alter, drill holes or solder anything to it please 3 The borrower must obtain proof of purchase when returning it, in the situation where the item is lost in the post, the borrower is to claim for loss of item worth £18.95 (which will be used to replace it) 4 As well as paying the return postage, the borrower is to enclose a first class large letter stamp which will be used to send it to the next person. (If asked by me to forward directly to the next person, no additional stamp required) 5 Will only send to members of RMweb of 3 months + standing Happy for anyone to borrow it all I ask is not to abuse the offer It has been suggested to build a data base of stock which runs on it straight out of the box, please feel free to add to it Available to borrow from Monday, on a first to ask basis by either replying to the topic of sending a PM Edited November 19, 2015 by hayfield Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardS Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 3months + standing. I was capable of standing but after reading some of the track threads I have to lie down. Do I still qualify? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Richard I think you have fully qualified to be included, if only for an open but questioning mind. On a more serious note as well as putting a piece of track to a certain gauge in someone's hands, it also allows them the experience being hands on with a piece of hand built track. The gauge in fact could be incidental, if it encourages one person to look at it and have a go themselves, that in its self would made this a worthwhile exercise. Anything to bust the myth that track building is beyond the ability of the average modeller can only be a good thing for the hobby. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 (edited) This is a serious question not a flame, can anyone comment on the suitability of 00-Sf to accept proto 87 USA HO wheels. Will I get wheel drop. ? . I building some 4mm bogies for Irish GM diesel models and since they used 40 inch wheels, these are difficult to get this side of the pond. But 45" Proto 87 HO wheels scale very close in 00. Thanks Edited November 26, 2015 by Junctionmad Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted November 26, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 26, 2015 (edited) Hi, Proto87 wheels are unsuitable for any track other than Proto87, and maybe P4. On any 00/EM track they will drop into the crossings with a bump (they are too narrow). Proto-87 wheel standards here: http://www.proto87.org/d/?q=node/4 regards, Martin. Edited November 26, 2015 by martin_wynne link added Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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