Kickstart Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 If someone really wants to be accepted as the gender they are then perhaps they ought to be understanding and accept anything that any cisgender member of that gender would accept. If one wants to be accepted into a group as an equal they ought to play by the same rules as everyone else in that group, not have special treatment just because they weren't born into that group (at least physically.). Maybe, but how many times a day should someone accept being called sir when obviously presenting as female? How much benefit of the doubt should be given to it being a mistake when the last person to say it was being malicious? Or how many times should someone accept being shoulder barged out of the way just for not matching someone’s opinion of gender norms? The first of these can be very common (a friend of mine is quite tall and suffers it a lot), the second happens. Most trans people would love to receive the default treatment of their gender. Some are lucky enough to pass well enough to receive itmost if the time, others not so much. All the best Katy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Torper Posted January 4, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 4, 2019 To an individual it might well be laughable, but when others use it as an excuse to deny rights then there us an issue. All too often rights are self invented. I'm not at all sure that there are such things. For me a genuine right is something that is inalienable and I'm afraid i can't think of anything just now that falls into that category. DT Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Maybe, but how many times a day should someone accept being called sir when obviously presenting as female? How much benefit of the doubt should be given to it being a mistake when the last person to say it was being malicious? Or how many times should someone accept being shoulder barged out of the way just for not matching someone’s opinion of gender norms? The first of these can be very common (a friend of mine is quite tall and suffers it a lot), the second happens. Most trans people would love to receive the default treatment of their gender. Some are lucky enough to pass well enough to receive itmost if the time, others not so much. All the best Katy I apologise, Katy - I did of course forget people in your situation. Sorry. Of course if a man is presenting as a woman but isn't transgender, per-se, then that is of course an exception to my rule and certainly once someone has been corrected they shouldn't make the same 'mistake' again as I suspect they're trying to prove their own point and make you feel uncomfortable. And I readily admit that I am not very good at phrasing things correctly, I'm afraid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kickstart Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 All too often rights are self invented. I'm not at all sure that there are such things. For me a genuine right is something that is inalienable and I'm afraid i can't think of anything just now that falls into that category. DT The consultation for the review of the Gender Recognition Act has just gone through. Currently this allows, with a fair bit of opaque bureaucracy, trans people to change their legal sex. Allowing appropriate marriage, death certificate details, and legal protection from being outed (note, it gives zero extra rights of access to specific spaces). Various mistruths were spread by those aiming to keep the current opaque process, or to even remove the possibility of this process. As such, this is a legal right that some are aiming to limit or even remove. All the best Katy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 If you like the label, sure. I am though, happy to defer to the actual moderators. I love the label. You’re the one trying to close the discussion for a couple of days, no ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 As such, this is a legal right that some are aiming to limit or even remove. And as such it must be protected - The moment that legal rights for people begin to get repealed for no remotely good reason is the moment one may as well give up on any belief in democracy in this country. Yes some legal rights will change over time but usually for the better or at least for good reason. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Torper Posted January 4, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 4, 2019 As such, this is a legal right that some are aiming to limit or even remove. If it can equally legally be limited or removed, it's not, IMO, a right. DT 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 If it can equally legally be limited or removed, it's not, IMO, a right. DT That is equally true, and is a valid point. However, as it is currently enshrined in law it is a legal right regardless of the fact of you not considering it to be one! I'm afraid that whilst it is a valid point it isn't perhaps sensitive or appropriate to push it. Then again, I don't believe in the suppression of free speech so you are more than entitled to say what you like and indeed I would consider it a very sad state of affairs if only one viewpoint was allowed to be expressed here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium JDW Posted January 5, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 5, 2019 [...]if done in good humour many don’t care. Quite a few if my friends don’t take themselves that seriously. A few months ago there was the Stafford classic bike show. I went with 3 trans friends. There was a stand there for a company selling electrical converters called Trans Wave. So we took a selfie of us in front if the stand waving just to take the mickey. To be fair, the stand keeper took it very well when he said that he didn’t mind as long as people saw the logo, and a friend replied it would be posted on a few trans forums! His face only dropped for a split second. Yep, agree with that All the best Katy The Trans Wave thing - that made me chuckle! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Neil Posted January 5, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 5, 2019 If it can equally legally be limited or removed, it's not, IMO, a right. DT Many, perhaps most of our rights have limits. An easy example would be the driving license, it allows you to drive a car on the public road, but unless you take an HGV test not a lorry. It allows you to drive but there are limits on speed, protocol, wearing of seatbelts and level of intoxication. I could go on but I'm sure you get my drift. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 (edited) Many, perhaps most of our rights have limits. An easy example would be the driving license The driving license is a conditionally granted permission, not a right, but your point is well made all the same. There are limits on rights. Freedom of speech is a right, but there are limits on what you can say and where. (The usual US-based example is "falsely shouting 'fire' in a crowded theatre", Schenck v. United States.) Edited January 5, 2019 by Ozexpatriate Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 Anyhow - I hope you lot don't mind my saying so but the discussion on the limits of rights is perhaps warranting a thread in its own right (pun intended after I noticed it! ) but possibly this isn't that thread... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Torper Posted January 5, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 5, 2019 (edited) Many, perhaps most of our rights have limits. An easy example would be the driving license, it allows you to drive a car on the public road, but unless you take an HGV test not a lorry. It allows you to drive but there are limits on speed, protocol, wearing of seatbelts and level of intoxication. I could go on but I'm sure you get my drift. I think you make my point. Many people wrongly equate entitlements with rights. There is no "right" to drive a car - there is an entitlement if you pass the necessary tests. That entitlement can be taken away as easily as it is granted. A right is much more fundamental. I think most would agree that there is a right to life. Basically, there is also a general right to liberty although that is not equally recognised all over the world and one man's liberty can sometimes be another man's oppression. But as for gender matters, the UK parliament may have passed laws giving much greater freedoms, but try going somewhere else with a more conservative outlook on life and you may find that these so-called rights are worthless and you'll find your right to liberty also in danger. You might also find that in the future an ultra conservative government in the UK could take away these "rights". For me, a "right" is something universal, something fundamental, a basic human right, sometimes called a natural right. I'd like to think that they'd include a right to a job with a living income, a right to decent housing, a right to a good education and proper health care regardless of income. Sadly, even in the wealthier countries, these are still often not available and the situation doesn't seem to be getting any better. DT Edited January 5, 2019 by Torper 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted January 5, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 5, 2019 I think you make my point. Many people wrongly equate entitlements with rights. There is no "right" to drive a car - there is an entitlement if you pass the necessary tests. That entitlement can be taken away as easily as it is granted. A right is much more fundamental. I think most would agree that there is a right to life. Basically, there is also a general right to liberty although that is not equally recognised all over the world and one man's liberty can sometimes be another man's oppression. But as for gender matters, the UK parliament may have passed laws giving much greater freedoms, but try going somewhere else with a more conservative outlook on life and you may find that these so-called rights are worthless and you'll find your right to liberty also in danger. You might also find that in the future an ultra conservative government in the UK could take away these "rights". For me, a "right" is something universal, something fundamental, a basic human right, sometimes called a natural right. I'd like to think that they'd include a right to a job with a living income, a right to decent housing, a right to a good education and proper health care regardless of income. Sadly, even in the wealthier countries, these are still often not available and the situation doesn't seem to be getting any better. DT New thread? I know we meander but entitlements and rights seem to me to not be what this thread is all about. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 I think you make my point. Many people wrongly equate entitlements with rights. There is no "right" to drive a car - there is an entitlement if you pass the necessary tests. That entitlement can be taken away as easily as it is granted. A right is much more fundamental. I think most would agree that there is a right to life. Basically, there is also a general right to liberty although that is not equally recognised all over the world and one man's liberty can sometimes be another man's oppression. But as for gender matters, the UK parliament may have passed laws giving much greater freedoms, but try going somewhere else with a more conservative outlook on life and you may find that these so-called rights are worthless and you'll find your right to liberty also in danger. You might also find that in the future an ultra conservative government in the UK could take away these "rights". For me, a "right" is something universal, something fundamental, a basic human right, sometimes called a natural right. I'd like to think that they'd include a right to a job with a living income, a right to decent housing, a right to a good education and proper health care regardless of income. Sadly, even in the wealthier countries, these are still often not available and the situation doesn't seem to be getting any better. DT I think we are talking of several different things here. Firstly most of the issues surrounding a persons sexualality are caused usually by the fear of something unknown/understood by the person who is making the judgement, mostly through lack of knowledge of the subject, missguided beliefs and or ignorance or simply fear of what they do not know. Over recent years I have come across and befriended many who have totally different lifestyles to me, but conduct themselves in a perfectly acceptable manner. many becoming good friends or acquaintances Many want rights, but selfishly fail to enact or acknowledge the responsibilities that go with the right Do we have a right to a home or a job if we abuse that right ? But this is a totally different subject, off topic plus falls into the political no go area My own view is that providing their lifestyle does not adversely affect others and is legal. There should be no issues with the person(s) maintaining the lifestyle they have chosen. But people whilst having the right to their own beliefs (which ever side of the subject they are on) also have the responsibilities not to affect/offend those who differ from them The diversity of peoples lifestyles make the world a richer place. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
E3109 Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 What people wish to 'identify' with, is their own business. It isn't harming anyone so live and let live, and all the rest. I draw the line at the expectation of being beyond criticism though, because surely it ought to be equal across the board. In other words, if it's OK for a trans person to expect acceptance then they surely ought to also accept that some people may not accept their lifestyle as 'normal' (not that it's anyone else's business but maybe you catch my drift). Define 'normal' though, I mean let's be frank most non-railway enthusiasts have us all tarred with the Weirdo Brush anyway. Best thing to do is just laugh it off, although I acknowledge that some people find it difficult to do that. This is a complex area but I will say, that two of the most decent people I've ever known are Phnom Penh-based ladyboys (and no, I haven't by the way). That said, I've also encountered some real vile bit***s in Bangkok who are basically just brawler blokes in frocks. Generalisation is the key here, or rather, the key as to what not to do. One size does NOT fit all, in my experience. ER whoops, that wasn't intended as a double entendre... Sometimes I think this can go too far though, for instance the young black girl who is convinced she's white, and actually debases her own family (Google 'Treasure The White Queen Dr Phil' if you're interested, not for the faint-hearted mind). Sometimes I'm convinced I'm a full on lesbian in the wrong body... But let's not go into that haha. Live and let live, while maintaining balance. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Torper Posted January 5, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 5, 2019 What people wish to 'identify' with, is their own business. It isn't harming anyone so live and let live, and all the rest. I draw the line at the expectation of being beyond criticism though, because surely it ought to be equal across the board. In other words, if it's OK for a trans person to expect acceptance then they surely ought to also accept that some people may not accept their lifestyle as 'normal' (not that it's anyone else's business but maybe you catch my drift). Nail on head. Tolerance should be a two-way thing. DT 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 I don't think that anyone here will dispute that. And if they do then I'm afraid that I for one can't agree with them! Respect, tolerance and offence do go both ways, or at least should go both ways. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 It seems as if I may have accidentally brought the thread to an end by saying that - My apologies everyone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 sem, 'Oh no you haven't' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 Alright - To return to/maintain a healthy discussion I'll put a question to the floor. How do transgender and gender non-conforming people (I imagine it's subjective so I guess I should say 'here' specifically) feel about being asked various questions about their being trans, how it 'works' (as it were), and other such questions? Personally I try and avoid asking - People are people, not google. However I will ask if I feel it would help me to get to know that person or to be more understanding, but to me it almost feels that, by asking questions (or too many questions) I'm focusing on a person's being trans rather than them as a person, if that makes sense. I guess that relates to what I said earlier about people not wishing to be defined by their being trans and just wanting to get on with life and how I want to respect that. I think that makes sense? Please tell me if it doesn't! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackRat Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 Indeed people are people, and we are all a little different, which makes life what it is. Luckily we live in ( more) enlightened times, and things can only get better.....with a little luck and tolerance.......on all sides. Professional experience tends to tell me that's most people really aren't that bothered and don't really care that much. What I have found tho is when people use their 'diversity' almost as a point scoring exercise, or a bit like a game of top trumps.....it never ends well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kickstart Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 How do transgender and gender non-conforming people (I imagine it's subjective so I guess I should say 'here' specifically) feel about being asked various questions about their being trans, how it 'works' (as it were), and other such questions? Would depend on the person, situation , questions, etc. In general I will discuss things (you might guess that from this thread), but that is very different from being interrogated by some random person in public. Some people are less forthcoming, and plenty so sick of being the target of others curiousity that they are unlikely to be happy to talk about it. All the best Katy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 Of course, it is very much situation dependent. I was thinking of situations such as this one really, or the real-world equivalent. The latter is what I always worry about when asking questions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kickstart Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 Hiya Honestly very much depends. On the whole, probably only ask when made reasonably clear the person you are asking doesn’t mind. I have a small trans flag pin badge in my handbag. I put it on occasionally when I am happy to be identified All the best Katy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now