Transgender and Gender Non-conforming People

[GarrettTheThief]

In this thread, I will probably go into detail on certain topics, but the idea is that we can talk about our experiences with (or as) transgender and gender non-conforming people. If you would rather keep that aspect of your life separate from your hobby and refrain from discussing it here, that's fine. I'd prefer it if this was geared towards a more serious discussion and any jokes made at the expense of transgender people kept in the Forum Jokes Thread. No, I'm not trying to violate your rights to free speech.

 

Before I continue, here are two very good and informative articles:

 

I Was Transgender and I Didn't Realize It - 6 Weird Realities

http://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-1756-i-was-transgender-didnt-know-it-6-weird-realities.html

 

5 Shocking Realities of Being Transgender the Media Ignores

http://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-1302-5-shocking-realities-being-transgender-media-ignores.html

 

Now, just to reference my last sentence in the opening paragraph: I agree that no group should be free from ridicule and you should be able to tell the jokes you please as long as you accept that some/most people won't like you for it. However, I need to talk about a specific type of joke which makes me uncomfortable. You know, where the punchline is that a guy kills or beats up a woman on finding out she was assigned male at birth. It bothers me because it's a real problem which has gotten many transpeople killed while their killers use the "trans panic" defense. The second article I linked to (5 Shocking Realities) covered this nicely and I'm going to copy a block from it:

 

 

I met a guy at a social event recently and got the feeling he might have been flirting with me, but I didn't know if he knew. I was scared a little the whole time because he was much larger than me (not that I'm small). I waited a month and a half of hanging out, without so much as a touch on the arm, before telling him. It took that long for me to feel sure I'd be safe either way. If you're saying to yourself, "Well, you shouldn't have led him on!" remember that some men consider simply being in the room with them to be "leading them on." You think I'd be safer wearing a sign around my neck? Some people are enraged just by the fact that I exist.

 

All right, so maybe it's safer to stay at home and try to meet people over the Internet? There we can merely be verbally assaulted, nonstop, in pretty much any setting. Internet slang for a trans woman is "trap," as in, a being who exists only to "trap" males into questioning their sexuality. So now I can be reminded that the world is filled with people who fly into a violent rage at the mere suggestion of my existence, from the comfort of my own home. Thanks, Internet!

 

There's no denying that this IS a pressing issue. Why does it bother me in particular (apart from basic empathy)? Well, I'm gender non-conforming. I have no desire to change my sex but I like to present as a member of the opposite sex and there's a real risk this could happen to me. Frankly, it's dangerous being people like us. When I present as female, it's not an act so it's not as simple as "well, don't dress up then!" (which just gives bigots a free ticket to behave like terrible people). An even bigger issue I have when it comes to jokes about transgender people is the complete and utter lack of creativity.

 

My OTHER main gripe is less with ignorance (I would blame media portrayal, but with Caitlin Jenner, Laverne Cox and Chas Bono in the spotlight and this becoming more of a recognised issue, that's not much of an excuse). It's the infighting in transgender communities. If you aren't full time, you're seen as a crossdresser i.e. a fetishist (crossdressing refers to the act and not the psychology, but that's how it's seen by some members Of our community). I've had to cut ties with some groups and people because of this. Obnoxiousness and divisiveness don't care much about gender.

 

Finally, I'll talk more about myself. I've never experienced any major discomfort over my body but I have been distressed because I was never able to express that side of me and there were societal and environmental factors which stopped me. Eventually, I came out to myself early last year when, on a whim, I googles "how to crossdress" and read a wikihow article only to suddenly realise this was something I always wanted to do. I then started questioning my gender identity and in the process, knew more about myself and gained a lot more self confidence. The questioning phase isn't entirely over and I'm thinking of seeking therapy again, only with someone who is more knowledgeable about gender issues. My experience is far from negative, though. My family, close friends and some of my colleagues accept me and I love having that side.

 

I would delve deeper into the causes of transgenderism but I've already made this post too long so I'll go over that in another post. Feel free to chip in with your experiences and ask questions (obviously, how you ask them is important because this is a really sensitive area, but don't refrain from asking at all). I think the best way of making the world a better place is to spread understanding rather than be more divisive, something I sadly witness in the trans community.

Edited September 22, 2015 by GarrettTheThief

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

That is very brave. I don't have any experience to offer, other than a couple of decades ago a transgender colleague. He was very, very cautious in every aspect of his life.

[shortliner]

Without wishing to denigrate you, your feelings or your community in any way, I, as an elderly person, think back to when I joined the Royal Air Force, and one of the very first things that was drummed into us, was that there were 3 taboo subjects for barrack room discussion, namely politics, religion, and s-e-x in any of its multitude of forms. These have, between them, been amongst the biggest causes of dissent, disagreement, strife and trouble in the world - as indeed they are at the moment leading to the current European immigration problems. I applaud your bravery in "outing" yourself, but can I respectfully suggest that your "preferences" are your own, and no business of anyone elses, and this really is not a topic that should be being discussed on a Model Railway forum - there are far more suitable places where such discussions can take place. I wish you all the best

Jack

[Andy Y]

It is in Wheeltappers and as such has as much right to space as discussions about 4WDs and cyclists but it is obviously more important to many than that. The hobby has a fair representation from the LGBT community so as long as no-one's homophobic at one end of the discussion or a total diva at the other and it's treated sensibly hopefully we shouldn't have a problem.

[GarrettTheThief]

Shortliner, I think you raised a fair point and I've taken no offense to anything you've said. I frequent places online where certain "hot topics" are discussed freely and responsibly, but I haven't fully adjusted to this forum so this didn't cross my mind. I understand this can be a divisive topic and the last thing I want is for other members to end up fighting over this. I hope this doesn't happen, but I'll definitely take this into consideration before posting another "hot topic".

[Giles]

I suspect that many people may find the topic (and indeed the reality) slightly uncomfortable apart from any other reason because of embarrassment apart from anything else. Not knowing what to say, when things are out of your own experience......

 

I've spent my life in Theatre, which has always been more accepting of things than most other walks of life, so I'm often somewhat surprised myself by more conventional reactions.

 

Regarding jokes - by and large, the more serious the subject, the higher the stakes, the more delicate the subject - potentially the funnier the joke - or more awful a disaster... T'was ever thus, and this subject is no more exempt than any other, I suspect.

 

But this is a good opportunity to learn and inform, and for us to become more understanding and kindly.

['CHARD]

Fair play for having the balls to say your piece.  Live and let live, I say.  

 

For too long society was either too repressed or self-loathing to accept anyone who wished to express visible signs of diverging from some arbitrary 'norm.'  Hopefully we now live in generally more enlightened times.

 

Good luck and remember the legendary comeback of the great Eddie Izzard when asked why he wore women's clothes: 

“They’re not women’s clothes. They’re my clothes. I bought them.”

Edited September 22, 2015 by 'CHARD

[Bernard Lamb]

 

Regarding jokes - by and large, the more serious the subject, the higher the stakes, the more delicate the subject - potentially the funnier the joke - or more awful a disaster... T'was ever thus, and this subject is no more exempt than any other, I suspect.

 

 

Very good. I note your location.

A long time ago at a cycling club dinner where we allowed cross toasting there was a regular remark about a person who had changed sex. They had moved from Chelmsford to Stanmore. Knowledge of northern home counties geography required.

One year one of the regulars  did change their gender. They had no problem with the custom of the comment being continued.

Then things got interesting. The person who had changed gender wished to enter a competitive event. We discussed it in committee. There was a remark made that as they would never have been a prize winner as a man many years previously so they were not going to affect the result as a woman now. We allowed them to ride.

Many years later a very good rider, on the verge of the national squad, sought to do the same. The national organisation flung up their hands in horror, partly prompted by the current top women riders and introduced a ban and all manner of checks and controls. The first time it has happened was their cry. There was some amazement when they were informed what had been going on for many years. We saw it as purely an internal business within our association and saw no need to tell the national authority or any body else.

Still in touch with the person concerned. They must have spent almost the same amount of time sitting on each side of the fence by now. They get on well with their former wife and the son that they fathered in the former part of their life.

 

Bernard

[Horsetan]

It's difficult for Drewry 204hp shunters, too. Some of them adopted skirts.

[Mrs Dava]

Without wishing to denigrate you, your feelings or your community in any way, I, as an elderly person, think back to when I joined the Royal Air Force, and one of the very first things that was drummed into us, was that there were 3 taboo subjects for barrack room discussion, namely politics, religion, and s-e-x in any of its multitude of forms. These have, between them, been amongst the biggest causes of dissent, disagreement, strife and trouble in the world - as indeed they are at the moment leading to the current European immigration problems. I applaud your bravery in "outing" yourself, but can I respectfully suggest that your "preferences" are your own, and no business of anyone elses, and this really is not a topic that should be being discussed on a Model Railway forum - there are far more suitable places where such discussions can take place. I wish you all the bestJack

Oh for goodness sake! This post is not about s-e-x, rather about identity and right to self-expression! The LBGTQI forum extends far and wide, including those involved in railway modelling, therefore a valid topic for discussion under Wheeltappers! Perhaps the Poster has touched an uncomfortable nerve here, but his/her opinion is very relevant. Having lived in Canada for a year, Canadians are taking discussions around identity very seriously! Perhaps the UK could learn a great deal from this.

[Andrew1974]

When I come across people that have a different perspective to me I try to understand things from their point of view, and this often helps me in terms of understanding, even if I don't agree with them.

 

In the case of transgender issues this is something in really struggle with. I hope that I would never do anything that could be perceived as prejudiced, but I really struggle to understand the thoughts, feelings and emotions that they are experiencing.

 

My wife's uncle is now her aunt, she is just as much a part of our life as she would be if she was still her uncle, and she really is lovely, but I just don't understand- I am trying, just not there yet. Perhaps some of the prejudice that transgender people encounter is for this reason, so discussion of the subject may help. Good luck, and I hope that you don't get any unkind comments on here.

[cheesysmith]

I know this may sound strange, but I like to think I come from a generation (42years old) that I like to think is more open to other peoples lives. There are always people who spoil it for everyone, but I like to think that the UK is good for equalities. I have no problems with how anybody lives their lives, as long as other peoples choices don't affect my right to live my own life within the law. everybody has the right to live how they choose. Having seen how some people react on TV, like the American biblebashers or the Russian homophobes, I have a mental problem even understanding how and why these people react like they do.

 

equality can be anything you wish for in law, but is only real equality when it is in peoples mindset.

[Horsetan]

...equality .... is only real equality when it is in peoples mindset.

That will never happen as long as religion exists.

[pointstaken]

Live and let live ? Your prejudices are your business, no one elses.

 

Dennis

[alfsboy]

I always say each to their own .I got my initiation into other mens life choices in the very early 60's when I played a gay dance in the back of a pub in Woolwich  right near the Ferry .I was 15 and rather innocent  of such matters and we had about 10 seconds warning when our manager /driver/guy with van  warned us that things might look a bit odd but a great bunch .There were men in dresses,ski slacks  ,big strong hefty types and little effeminate types and even one in a pink shirt ,the horror .Of course all this was still illegal and I was underage even to be in the pub drinking  but we survived of course and had a great time .We played it several times before the lead guitarists sister got pregnant and we got the blame ....chance would be a fine thing .Scroll on 5 years and I am wearing a pink shirt without a thought along millions of other guys .Just enjoy life .

[Dava]

Around 10 or maybe more years ago, one of the key people in the 7mm narrow Gauge scene very courageously went through gender reassignment in a public way, those around at the time will recall I'm sure. She had a lot of support and respect from that community, deservedly. Respect and tolerance are so important, there is a lot of repression and fear out there and we might be surprised how many LGBT folks are in the Rail lovers (not only modelling) community.

 

But when are Buffers going to have a more trans-gender representative figure selection? They've not even got 7mm nudes yet!

 

Dava

[PhilH]

Being an old man now I do find things somewhat different than years ago...which is my point really. As time and society move on the 'church' gets broader incorporating ideas, ways of living life that were once swept under the carpet.

 

One would hope that the culmination of this evolution would be that people can live their lives in freedom from persecution, ridicule and suspicion just because they don't conform to the 'norm', whatever the hell that is...and the world will be a better place because of that.

[Clearwater]

Brings to mind my apocryphal granny "if you've nothing nice to say, say 'owt"

 

To the OP - good for you. It's your life, do what you want, not what others want you to do. Your true friends and family will support you.

[Kickstart]

In the case of transgender issues this is something in really struggle with. I hope that I would never do anything that could be perceived as prejudiced, but I really struggle to understand the thoughts, feelings and emotions that they are experiencing.

 

For many it is something they find very difficult to understand themselves. It is rather against most thought patterns that have been instilled through life (let alone the perceived threat of or actual bullying that goes with it), and to add to that there are the guilt issues from finally outing themselves and thinking they will hurt those they care about. Given many come out in their 40s that is a lot of history and experience to overcome.

 

All the best

 

K

[reevesthecat]

There is a fairly good comedy on bbc2 at the moment about a man who is going out with a transgender female and he is aware of her past but just accepts her as who she is. The comedic characters in the programme are the immediate family of the couple rather than the couple themselves although she did knock someone out the other night for taking the mickey. As usual with my memory can't remember what it's called but it has highlighted transgender issues in a positive light (in my opinion anyway).

Mark

[Kickstart]

Hi

 

The series is Boy Meets Girl:-

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Meets_Girl_%28BBC_TV_series%29

 

All the best

 

K

[hayfield]

That will never happen as long as religion exists.

Horstan

 

I would like to disagree with this, in my experience the individual that's the problem. Being in my early sixties and described as "old school" by the younger ones at work and not very pc. I have views about other groups that most have, but those in these groups I know personally I would like to think I treat as close friends.

 

I grew up with a lad from St Lucia who was one of my best friends, colour never came into it. I work with an African lad who is a very devout believer, he is a lovely caring and very hard working person, as they say in the east end "a real diamond" we laugh and joke at each others expense all the time. In this case his religion (not mine) requires him to befriend all. I do have some "gay" friends again lovely folk (I guess there are some nasty ones as well ).

 

I don't think many of us have problems with folk who are different from us providing we all integrate with each other. In my opinion its when groups isolate themselves which causes problems. As for the topic yes it is live and let live, but also both conforming and non-conforming groups should be sensitive to each other feelings and fears and act appropriately.

 

Good luck on your journey                      

[trisonic]

 

Good luck on your journey                      

Amen to that.

 

An obviously sensitive subject that needs to be treated sensibly by railway modelers in order to avoid prejudice.

 

Best, Pete.

[45156]

A brave subject to broach on a hobby forum, for sure, but it's quite relevant, and is just as worthy of discussion here in Wheeltappers as who's going to win the next F1 or whether Concorde should fly again.  It is an area where we will all have our own views and prejudices, and some minds will be open more than others to the concept of discussing in open forum topics which would hitherto have been deemed as "taboo".

 

I worked for some years in the charitable sector, and met staff of many, many charities in many sectors, including the Terrence Higgins Trust, and met loads of gay and transgender folk, and when it came down to it, that's what they were - folk - with their own way of doing things, and their own spin on life. 

 

So for my two penn'orth, this is a legitimate topic for discussion, and I hope that my fellow RMWebbers (some of whom will transgender as I know from meeting some of then at an open day) will look on this in a tolerant manner, whether the subject conforms to their views or not.

[Oldddudders]

I am indebted to "Our Man in New York" ( trisonic) for alerting another part of Wheeltappers (Early Risers) to this most interesting thread.

First a little railway story. In the '50s, the Chicago, Rock Island & Pacific Railroad re-engined their Alco DL109 #621 with a prime mover from industry giant General Motors. While the aesthetics were not improved by the new roof line, the enthusiast community nicknamed the loco Christine. Why? Because at about the same time one Christine Jorgensen became the beneficiary of the world's first sex-change operation.

Our sexuality is given to us at birth. We do not have a choice. The internal agonies and confusion suffered by those whose genes have left them out of the comfortable mainstream of society cannot be imagined by the rest of us, I suspect. In my lifetime homosexuality in the UK was actually illegal (as was suicide, ironically), but we've moved on since then, at least a little.

I was told many years ago that there is a little homosexuality in most of us. I wonder how many of us even acknowledge that to ourselves, let alone partners or friends - and as for colleagues....... An atheist, I nevertheless relish the Biblical quote about first taking the plank out of your own eye.

Finally, full marks to the OP for courage in starting this brave thread, to Andy Y for underpinning its legitimacy, and to multiple members for some astute observations, even when some of them find the subject confrontational and difficult. Amazing!

 

EDIT I really struggled with the h-word due to the nanny-censor!

Edited September 23, 2015 by Oldddudders