Transgender and Gender Non-conforming People

[sem34090]

I know that some transgender people (especially trans women) might appear strangely dressed. There's a simple reason to this - how old were you before you could dress yourself reliably (and I mean in context-appropriate clothing)? How many cisgender (i.e. non-trans) men on here could go out shopping and put together an outfit for their wife (including shoes, jewellery, makeup etc) with no advice at all, and have something that wouldn't at least make the wife tut and roll her eyes? Now imagine that 90% of the clothing in the shops is intended for an entirely different body shape (chest much larger than hers, much smaller shoulders, much larger hips), and you'll start to get an idea of just how difficult it can be to dress as a trans person.

Yes, that's very true and is something that didn't occur to me at the time and it should have done.

 

 

It does take time to find a new "style" that suits oneself - I'm having trouble trying to myself - and while figuring that out one usually appears somewhat awkward.

 

 

And all this is when you're just trying to present as a man or a woman. As a non-binary person, I'm going through similar trouble at the moment - I look fairly masculine, but I want "unisex" clothes that don't just make me look masculine. Skirts are out (most of the time) because if you see a skirt, you (almost always) think female, but if I'm wearing "unisex" clothing like jeans and a hoodie, people assume I'm male. You can't win!

I can imagine that being rather difficult, for the reasons you give.

['CHARD]

Every day is a school day.

 

dox

/dɒks/

verb

INFORMAL

gerund or present participle: doxxing

1. 
   
   
   

   
   

   
   

   
   

   search for and publish private or identifying information about (a particular individual) on the Internet, typically with malicious intent.

   
   

    

   
   

    

   
   

   
   

   
   

   
   
   
   
   

[SJS]

Hi everyone - I just came across this topic and was overall pleasantly suprised by the reaction in this blog and was even more pleased to see some trangendered people as railway modellers! This may sound kind of strange but the reason that I am happy in reading this blog  is that I am a Transgendered MtoF (oohh I think I have just come out to the railway fraternity). To many of my close friends and acquantances I am seen as female but I have always hidden it when going to model shows or online (here!) as it has always seemed a little overwhelmingly male and its daunting to be (or think you are) the only TG person around.

 

I might change my profile to my real name now - and it's Samantha by the way...... 

 

So when you see a 6-2 woman who looks stunningly beautiful at your next railway show but is perhaps a little shy do say hello...it might be me 

 

[sem34090]

Well, you're most certainly very welcome and are not alone!

 

And that is a brave thing to do by all accounts and I just hope to goodness that nobody treats you any worse as a result. I can't see why they should, but some people are never quite right.

 

Also, people seem to forget that a good many trans women are stunningly beautiful, often more so than some of their cisgender counterparts!

 

Finally, if this thread has prompted you to contribute here more comfortably then that's fantastic and what it should be about.  

 

 

[SJS]

 

1 minute ago, sem34090 said:

Well, you're most certainly very welcome and are not alone!

 

And that is a brave thing to do by all accounts and I just hope to goodness that nobody treats you any worse as a result. I can't see why they should, but some people are never quite right.

 

Also, people seem to forget that a good many trans women are stunningly beautiful, often more so than some of their cisgender counterparts!

 

Finally, if this thread has prompted you to contribute here more comfortably then that's fantastic and what it should be about.  

 

 

 

Thank you, your support is most welcome. I have lost friends and gained some during my very slow transition (still ongoing!) so I suspect this will happen again. Generally good friends and family stay with you whatever happens in your life.

 

I was kinda kidding about the "stunningly beautiful"  - I will be pleased if I am generally ignored when out. But I will take any compliment.

 

 

[Kickstart]

Hiya

 

Hope all goes well.

 

There are quite a few trans people in the model railway community. And most people are accepting (both the Gauge O Guild and the Ffestiniog Railway have gone out of their way to make me feel comfortable). Sure there is the odd person who is a bit of an arse over it, but you get that everywhere.

 

And at 6’2” you are a bit shorter than one of my friends.....

 

All the best

 

Katy

[sem34090]

10 hours ago, markfsmith3132 said:

Thank you, your support is most welcome.

You are most welcome to it - Everyone needs support sometimes, especially people in your situation.  

 

Quote

I have lost friends and gained some during my very slow transition (still ongoing!) so I suspect this will happen again. Generally good friends and family stay with you whatever happens in your life.

Never a truer word said, but hopefully you will gain more than you lose and hopefully you won't lose any. 

 

Quote

I was kinda kidding about the "stunningly beautiful"  - I will be pleased if I am generally ignored when out. But I will take any compliment.

 

I can understand why you might prefer to be ignored, but hopefully it won't stay that way forever and the attention will be positive rather than the negative you fear.  

[Skinnylinny]

Welcome, Samantha! It's good to have you among us.

[SJS]

19 hours ago, Kickstart said:

Hiya

 

Hope all goes well.

 

There are quite a few trans people in the model railway community. And most people are accepting (both the Gauge O Guild and the Ffestiniog Railway have gone out of their way to make me feel comfortable). Sure there is the odd person who is a bit of an arse over it, but you get that everywhere.

 

And at 6’2” you are a bit shorter than one of my friends.....

 

All the best

 

Katy

 

Thanks Katy. I think I was probably prejudace somewhat in thinking that the model railway community would not be welcoming for which I apologise to everyone. I learn new things each day.

[SJS]

10 hours ago, sem34090 said:

You are most welcome to it - Everyone needs support sometimes, especially people in your situation.  

 

Never a truer word said, but hopefully you will gain more than you lose and hopefully you won't lose any. 

 

I can understand why you might prefer to be ignored, but hopefully it won't stay that way forever and the attention will be positive rather than the negative you fear.  

Thanks again - I think I have already gained more from this forum that I could have imagined.

[SJS]

7 hours ago, Skinnylinny said:

Welcome, Samantha! It's good to have you among us.

 

Thanks its good to be here as myself.

[GarrettTheThief]

Sorry to bump this a year and a half after the last reply, AND to get quite dour. I logged in for the first time in years to check my followed topics now my interest has been reignited and I've made some headway on projects I've put aside thanks to the lockdown. I decided to have a gander at this thread and I'm pleasantly surprised to see continued civil replies.

 

Times have moved on and it turns out I had gender dysphoria all along and now I'm undergoing transition from my assigned birth (male). Despite the hostile political climate, media onslaught against trans people and friction with my mum, hormone replacement therapy and this real sense I'm finally coming into myself has been a massive godsend. I'm also fortunate to have an extremely supportive workplace.

 

Going through replies since 2015, I see we touched on TERFs (also known as "gender critical feminists", the equivalent of a "race realist" but for gender). You got ahead of me as I was going to reference an older post about "so-called feminists" calling "men in dresses" "perverts" which on re-reading reminded me of that toxic subset of feminism. Unfortunately, the GC movement is far more insidious and their anti-trans narratives have very nearly become public policy. There's a risk they still can, but the overwhelming pushback to the government's proposed rollback of our civil liberties seems to have kept them in check. It's wholly screwed up that the lack of *bad* news on that front rather than much-needed reforms is considered a success, but here we are. I guess I can hold off on emigrating to Ireland* with my model collection for now.

 

I also see we touched on "deception". This is not intended to be an attack on users who have expressed this view, or on anyone who agrees with them, and I'm aware people here have addressed this quite well already, but I think the perspective I can offer is important, and I'll start by asserting that we are not deceiving you. I don't just mean deliberately to trick heterosexual men, I also mean that our identities are very real. You might have a different view of what constitutes gender and we can debate the metaphysics of gender and biological sex (discussions which I think have the potential to be interesting when not approached in bad faith or from the angle of completely unshakable metaphysical skepticism that's only shifted by hard evidence or a concise definition). All it takes is to acknowledge that our declarations about our gender can be true and should morally and legally be taken very seriously.

 

The root of this is the same root of many of the transphobic myths we face: the aforementioned metaphysical skepticism i.e. the idea that being trans isn't a real thing and asserting that we aren't really the gender we say we are. It's easy to see how this plays into transphobic narratives flying around (we're just men making fraudulent claims to gain access to women's spaces for nefarious purposes or steal their olympic medals and university scholarships, or we're trying to fool heterosexual men, or trans men are really just women trying to escape misogyny). This is not to say you're automatically transphobic if you hold any skepticism (and there is a healthy amount to have, even when discussing gender!), just that it's worth being mindful of what you do when you bolster that extreme skepticism. Even if you don't mistreat trans people yourself, you can still end up planting that spore in someone else where it can grow, or embolden them if they already had an anti-trans bias.

 

And remember: your belief is just that and I'm happy to offer the courtesy of leaving that be as long as they don't undermine our dignity and safety, but our existence is a reality.

 

Final note: I tend to opt out of discussions on the metaphysics of gender or the infuriating and pointless meta-debates about discourse surrounding trans issues. This is because my energy is directed towards ensuring our civil liberties are protected and in some cases actually written into law, normalising our lives in the way non-heterosexual relationships are (we still aren't fully there on THAT front either, but we've come a long way) and sharing our experiences and perspectives, since that tends to do a better job of swaying people who are on the fence. However, you've all instilled a trust that as a community we can approach topics in good faith and I'm still open to answering questions and all that jazz.

 

- Kim

 

* A far LGBT+friendlier place than the UK with legal self-declaration and a fully inclusive feminist community that hasn't been poisoned by GC feminism.

Edited July 29, 2020 by GarrettTheThief
Added an extra transphobic myth to touch on the harm it causes trans men too

[MJI]

I am glad you know your direction now GTT.

 

Also I can see both sides of the debate, the men in dresses bit is really I think about actual men not people undergoing G.R.A. No one can complain about that at all.

 

Out of curiosity how did the councelling go? This is such a complex issue, how do they work out what is happening?

[GarrettTheThief]

18 minutes ago, MJI said:

I am glad you know your direction now GTT.

 

Also I can see both sides of the debate, the men in dresses bit is really I think about actual men not people undergoing G.R.A. No one can complain about that at all.

 

Out of curiosity how did the councelling go? This is such a complex issue, how do they work out what is happening?

 

Thank you!

 

Back then, I saw both an LGBT+ counselor and a psychiatrist at Sheffield GIC (I asked for a referral just for the specialist psyche services). The general takeaway was to take more time exploring my presentation as it was largely limited to trans gatherings and the odd late evening. It wasn't until I moved out of my parents' two years ago and actually got a chance to do that regularly and present in online communities as Kim I knew I needed to transition and it was what I really wanted all along. I've also had a chance to reflect on a lot of my feelings and experiences from growing up, largely by following other trans people on Twitter, and come to the realisation that many of my feelings can be chalked down to gender dysphoria.

 

I got re-referred to Sheffield GIC to go down the NHS pathway but I have issues with their process which, from what I hear and partially experienced when I last went just for the psyche services, is very rigid and unaffirmative (though I hear there have been improvements in the most recent years). Plus, I can expect to wait for a minimum of two years before my first appointment. As a result, I've gone through an online private clinic, whose process is driven by the patient and informed consent.

 

In a nutshell, the NHS pathway involves a few appointments months apart with a different analyst who then come together in a panel and the majority have to conclude that you do indeed have gender dysphoria. If they can't decide, you refer you to a psychiatrist for a deeper examination (the service I specifically sought the first time round). Otherwise, you'll get an official diagnosis before they put you down the transition pathway. The process at this stage involves limited assistance for the patient besides a checklist of things they are expected to have done before the next appointment. Among them is living "full time" as your true gender which involves social and legal transition. For some NHS clinics, it's a requirement you've socially and legally transitioned for a year before they put you on hormone replacement therapy (HRT). Sheffield are a bit more lax on that. They can reject a dysphoria diagnosis if you are suffering from other mental issues (including those *caused* by gender incongruity!).

 

It's worth noting that this pathway was not primarily designed by trans people (the people actually living this). It's an extremely conservative one-size-fits-all approach to something that will look different for every trans person. A part of me can understand why that is when we live in a litigious society. I'm also aware that the downsides of the NHS pathway are sometimes overplayed (besides waiting times), and yes, an official diagnosis makes sense for obtaining prescriptions. But they put you through that pathway only to *then* put you through an informed consent process anyway. Now consider that many trans people get referred in the first place because they know full well they are trans and need to transition!

 

What you said about men in dresses is interesting. The question I usually ask when it's brought up is where do we draw that line between a trans woman and a man who has no intention to transition, and for that matter, what constitutes "gender reassignment"? Because that answer seems to vary for many people, if they even come up with one. In my experience, the end result is policing what "looks/is acceptable enough to be in women's spaces" which not only alienates trans people with physiology out of their control, but also (more frequently) alienates gender non-confirming and "traditionally unfeminine" cisgender women, who have reported recent spikes in abuse for using ladies' spaces thanks to anti-trans hysteria. I can understand the fear when not fully informed on the issue, but it falls apart when you look at the reality of what constitutes self-identification, who and how assaults are carried out etc.

[Kickstart]

Hiya

 

To give some further info

 

Nottingham GIC process can be as follows. Referral from GP, followed by a long wait (it was about 2.5 years before COVID, and higher now). For the first 3 appointments, first 2 with different counsellors, and the 3rd with both plus someone who has known the patient for some time. At this point they do the official diagnosis. Waits between these appointments vary (for me, 2 months covered all 3 appointments, but 3 months between each appointment is normal). They talk through feelings, how long they have been there, etc. Proof of any steps already taken (driving licence, bank statements, pay slips, private diagnosis, etc). Future appointments are aimed at around 3 months apart, but often a bit longer. Speech therapy is offered, and there is a grant offered for hair removal. Surgery referrals seem to be possible after a year, and these require 2 separate diagnosis. Wait for A pre operative appointment varies on the surgeon, as does the wait between the appointment and surgery (plus time for any required weight loss, hair removal in the surgical area, etc).

 

A very large number of people have transitioned a long time before they get to their first appointment, and a large number have gone via a private diagnosis for medication.

 

It is worth pointing out that access to spaces is protected under the equality act which includes proposing to transition.

 

All the best

 

Katy

[simontaylor484]

Well that has been an education reading the above posts

 

Firstly can i applaud your bravery in "coming out" on the forum .

 Secondly i hope your transition brimg you solace and happiness and i genuinely wish you well.

 

 

[Mallard60022]

Hello everyone. Just over 3 years has gone by.

I am hoping that this thread may reignite after the demise of a new one from yesterday 23/07/2023. The reason was that one person in particular objected the to OP placing a Transgender post on Wheeltappers. The OP was unaware of this thread and I don't see the objecting person on this either thank goodness. He, the objector, just couldn't fathom out why his comments were actually disliked!

The responses were genuine and this person was unable to deal with those that criticised him. 

Sadly the thread was locked...hence me being here.

I have informed the OP of the new thread that this one still survives.

They were going to ditch their RMW Account after having to look at the negative poster(s), but may have postponed that; I do hope so.

Phil

[Mallard60022]

Here is the other LIVE thread. I bet York closes that too when he sees my comment posted today.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/103281-transgender-and-gender-non-conforming-people/page/17/

[AY Mod]

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

Sadly the thread was locked

 

The thread was locked because you persisted in kicking the person you refer to. I was trying to show a more open-handed approach to the person concerned to evidence that the topic had validity but you just caused further work and aggravation to others with the clumsy approach and then decided you wanted to argue with me about the approach taken.

 

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

I bet York closes that too when he sees my comment posted today.

 

You've linked to this topic from within the same topic and further needle me.

 

The other topic was closed because of your adamant approach, not because I have any agenda whatsoever within the topic itself. One person was removed because of their silliness, the OP wished he'd never started it and you just wanted to use it as a playground. I was so damned frustrated with it all, and you.

 

I'll remove your access to this topic too so that we don't have a re-run - as said I don't have time for it.

[Covkid]

31 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Here is the other LIVE thread. I bet York closes that too when he sees my comment posted today.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/103281-transgender-and-gender-non-conforming-people/page/17/

Do you not think that Andy deserves using his Christian name rather than just "York" ?

In my view the gender thing is all about having respect for individual differences whether they be opinion, culture, preferences or even the other person's cricket / football / baseball / (insert here) team.

 

I am a straight married guy who has just celebrated 33 years of marriage, and in my 61 years on this planet I have learnt an awful lot about humanity. In my first 30 odd years of life I never even knew that there were any other than heterosexual people on this planet, so did that mean that everyone else had to hide their feelings ?  Or was i just naive and innocent of it ? I worked on BR in a very very male environment but it wasn't until 2001 when I went to work for Virgin Trains that I became aware of the LGBT spectrum working with lesbian and gay people - Virgin being known as gay friendly.  I also became aware of a few transgendered people but most of those only because I was told of them. I believe very much in "!live and let live" and have no issues at all with any of the TS people I have known except one train driver with such a huge chip on their shoulder.  My thoughts are that anyone who absolutely determines they are born into the wrong gender can try and successfully transform themselves obviously costing lots of money, time and patience, but that transition is a journey which hopefully has an ending. If you are born male but believe you are really female you have to transition.  But aim to look like the woman, next door, or the one at the bottom of the cul de sac. For gawds sake do not attempt to wear ridiculous clothes and makeup.  How many women perpetually and habitually wear full warpaint and short skirts. A look at a nearby bus stop can help you.  If you can merge into a bus stop queue then you are probably understanding of it.  That person who has transitioned their body to be more feminine (or masculine although I have yet to meet and FTM transperson) eventually gets to live the rest of the life as they are, hopwfully without hangups.

 

There are some TS modellers I know but discretion is the most important point here.     

Edited July 24, 2023 by Covkid
typos

[bbishop]

Wheeltappers is a funny old place.  There are threads on cats, on dogs and for people who get out of bed before six in the morning.  Then I don't see posts objecting to threads about our furry friends or to insomniac modellers.  So if people don't like a thread then maybe raise their objection once then afterwards, just stay away.

 

Thanks for the resurrection, Phil.   As a straight male, I am posting this in support of the thread.  However it is really the responsibility of our LGBTetc community to maintain it - but without phobic opposition. 

 

I can see Andy's point of view.  He doesn't need a thread blowing up in his face, but I am deeply concerned that one person's continued hostility can close down a thread.  That way lies ...

 

Bill

 

 

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, Covkid said:

But aim to look like the woman, next door, or the one at the bottom of the cul de sac. For gawds sake do not attempt to wear ridiculous clothes and makeup.  How many women perpetually and habitually wear full warpaint and short skirts. A look at a nearby bus stop can help you.  If you can merge into a bus stop queue then you are probably understanding of it.  That person who has transitioned their body to be more feminine (or masculine although I have yet to meet and FTM transperson) eventually gets to live the rest of the life as they are, hopwfully without hangups.

That's quite insulting don't you think?

 

It's basically saying I am all for something but....and then basically making yourself the exact opposite.

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

Hello everyone. Just over 3 years has gone by.

I am hoping that this thread may reignite after the demise of a new one from yesterday 23/07/2023. The reason was that one person in particular objected the to OP placing a Transgender post on Wheeltappers. The OP was unaware of this thread and I don't see the objecting person on this either thank goodness. He, the objector, just couldn't fathom out why his comments were actually disliked!

The responses were genuine and this person was unable to deal with those that criticised him. 

Sadly the thread was locked...hence me being here.

I have informed the OP of the new thread that this one still survives.

They were going to ditch their RMW Account after having to look at the negative poster(s), but may have postponed that; I do hope so.

Phil

 

As 'The Objector', may I reassure Andy, and members who use this existing thread, that I have no intention whatsoever of continuing my much-misrepresented postings from the locked thread.

 

I was previously unaware of this thread, and will be pressing the IGNORE THIS THREAD tab momentarily.

 

I suspect that future postings will be rather more temperate now that a certain A4 has been excluded!

 

CJI.

[AY Mod]

 

 

For god's sake just stop it; you've just got to keep needling a situation.

[Kickstart]

1 hour ago, Covkid said:

 That person who has transitioned their body to be more feminine (or masculine although I have yet to meet and FTM transperson) eventually gets to live the rest of the life as they are, hopwfully without hangups.

 

You probably have met quite a few FTM people without realising it. Testosterone has a dramatic effect. I know quite a lot, and after a fairly short term on T there are virtually no hints beyond maybe height.

 

All the best

 

Katy