Where did the GWR and LMS cross paths at?

[artfull dodger]

Since I have a love of both railways, the beautiful Crimson Red of the LMS engines and the deep green with copper capped chimneys of the GWR.  I have models of both in coarse O gauge.  I am planning an around the room layout(8 foot by 9 foot room, so not real big) and would like to have it not be totaly out of place with both railways on the layout.  Being that my LMS power is prewar vintage it wont get run as much. So I was thinking if there was a location where the two might be seen together, I could make a short section of track for the LMS power to be seen on and leave the mainline running to my Lionel Albert and Kinlet Hall class engines. Being in the states, its hard to get a feel other than pictures and my History of British Railways videos I have.  Mike

[Marshall5]

Well Mike 8x9 won't give you a lot of space in 0 scale but, in answer to your question, Chester (a bit more LMS than GWR), Shrewsbury (more GWR) as would be Oxford (the only place where all the 'Big 4' could be seen). Never saw it myself but I believe the LMS and GWR ran parallel just outside Bristol.  I'm sure there are other examples.  Best of luck with your project.

Ray. 

[Rivercider]

As Ray says at both Bristol and Gloucester there were GWR and Midland sheds, there was a joint GW/Midland route in Bristol from Ashley Hill Junction to Avonmouth.

There were parallel main lines owned by the two companies from Standish Jn (south of Gloucester) to Cheltenham.

 

The two companies also met at many other places including Worcester, Hereford, Banbury, Wellington (Salop)

and at a number of places in the Brimingham to Wolverhampton area.

 

cheers

[Simond]

this is an interesting read, but a bit early for your modelling period perhaps

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pre-grouping-Railway-Junction-Diagrams-1914/dp/0711012563

 

this might be more suitable

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/British-Railways-Atlas-1947-Last/dp/0711036438

 

hth

simon

[Jintyman]

The Mid and South Wales lines had a mixture, in particular Talyllyn Junction (GW with LMR running rights to Brecon), which I an constructing in 7mm. Although there are many others I'm certain such as mentioned previously Chester and Shrewsbury as main stations.

 

Jinty

[SandyBrook]

For somewhere a bit more rural then either Corwen or Afon Wen where lines from the LMS Denbigh and Caernarvon lines met the GW Llangollen/Mid Wales lines.

 

These used to be used for a circular trip from Rhyl, Prestatyn holiday resorts etc

 

Sandy Sanbrook

[melmerby]

The lines from Bristol to Cheltenham were both GWR and LMS and had a complex history.

 

The Bristol and Gloucester railway was an ally of the GWR group and was built broad gauge.

However it was bought by the Midland became mixed, then standard gauge. (because of this the Midland was at one time the operator/owner of both broad and standard gauge infrastructure)

Bristol Temple Meads becomes a joint GWR/Midland station.

The GWR carried on using the line even after the Midland had absorbed it, although their trains would normally cross to GWR metals at Standish Junction.

The two lines then ran side to side to Gloucester to their respective stations.

From Gloucester to Cheltenham it ended up as effectively a 4 track joint line. (each had their own maintenance section)

 

A good selection of motive pwer of both groups could be seen even in BR days

 

There were also large expanses of GWR/LMS joint lines.

There were also several places in the Valleys where both would meet.

 

Keith

[caradoc]

Banbury and Oxford as already mentioned, plus Evesham, although in each case the GWR and LMS had separate stations.

[Fat Controller]

Pontardulais,( where the ex-LNWR line from Swansea Victoria joined the GWR line from Llanelly, as it then was) to Llandovery, where the GWR running powers ceased, IIRC. The LMS engines included Jubilees, Black 5s, 8Fs and a selection of tank engines. Those from the GWR were mainly tanks; Panniers of various types, but also the big 2-8-0 and 2-8-2 ones as far as Pantyffynon. When the former LNWR shed at Paxton Street, Swansea, shut, some time before Swansea Victoria closed, the 2-6-4ts that handled the local passenger services went to Landore, then Eastern Depot, whilst the 2-8-0s went to Llanelly.

[melmerby]

 When the former LNWR shed at Paxton Street, Swansea, shut, some time before Swansea Victoria closed, the 2-6-4ts that handled the local passenger services went to Landore, then Eastern Depot, whilst the 2-8-0s went to Llanelly.

Swansea had several stations at various times

Victoria (LNWR - LMS), St Thomas (Midland -LMS) and the rest which became GWR.

There were end on junctions between the GWR and both the LNWR lines and the Midland lines.

 

The Birkenhead Joint was GWR & LNWR(LMS) which AFAIK also gave the GWR access to Manchester via Acton Grange Jn. with running powers.

 

Wells was at the end of a branch of the S&D (MR & LSWR Jt) and the GWR ran through it, originally having it's own stations either side of it. (quite an interesting layout)

 

Keith

[daifly]

Swansea had several stations at various times

Victoria (LNWR - LMS), St Thomas (Midland -LMS) and the rest which became GWR.

There were end on junctions between the GWR and both the LNWR lines and the Midland lines.

'End-on' maybe but there was no through running at either. The links were for the interchange of wagons and allowed the Midland and LNWR (LMS latterly) access to the docks.

[The Stationmaster]

As far as Banbury is concerned the connection between the LNWR and GWR was through sidings and the LMS/LNWR had no Running Powers over GWR lines (and vice versa which indicates that only traffic exchange took place with no through running.

 

The LMS had Running Powers over the GWR between Abergavenny and Newport.

[brianthesnail96]

Living and working in Stonehouse, a little South of Standish Jct., my walk to work used to take me under the GWR and then over (via level crossing) the Midland line a few minutes later. Now I've moved down the road to Cam I'm well into Midland territory and it feels a little uncomfortable...  

[melmerby]

'End-on' maybe but there was no through running at either. The links were for the interchange of wagons and allowed the Midland and LNWR (LMS latterly) access to the docks.

Being pedantic it would be a bit dificult exchanging wagons if each others locos weren't allowed some access across the "boundary"

 

Keith

[MarcD]

I could be wrong but I don't think anyone has mention Hay-on-Wye or the ex LNWR/GWR lines through Craven Arms.

 

MArc

[meil]

Halesowen end on junction MR & GWR.

[melmerby]

Halesowen end on junction MR & GWR.

Strictly speaking the junction is between the GWR (from Old Hill) and GWR/MR joint from Longbridge

 

Keith

[The Stationmaster]

Being pedantic it would be a bit dificult exchanging wagons if each others locos weren't allowed some access across the "boundary"

 

Keith

Not so in some cases.  The Exchange (siding) at Oxford was shunted by the LNWR/LMS from one end and the GWR from the other although later of course various through running connections were made in the Oxford area.  Where through running took place at the junction between Companies then either joint operation or running powers would normally be involved.

[Clearwater]

I've always thought (and plan to incorporate in my layout of a lifetime) a good spot for both Lms and gwr is what is now known as smethwick Galton bridge station. The snow hill to Worcester branch crosses roughly perpendicular to the new street to Wolverhampton line. At a third level is the canal. Would make a good scene but requires a lot of vertical height as well!

[runs as required]

What exactly happened at Blaenau Ffestiniog, where I seem to remember there were three separate stations all on the same shelf in the landscape, with a tangle of lines in between ?

We alighted from the single coach from Bala junction at the GW station in about 1959, then (years later), from the DMU from Llandudno junction at the LNW station.

Presumably those circular tours via Afon Wen (the Radio Train?) referred to earlier, ran via Ruabon rather than via Beddgelert and Bl F.

[MarcD]

There was no standard gauge connection between the stations until the closure of the Bala line by BR. There was interchange between the FR and LNWR at one end of the village and the FR and GWR at the other. GWR narrow gauge wagons were transhipped from the GWR to the LNWR via the FR.

 

Marc

[Merfyn Jones]

Until 1964 there was a quarter mile gap between the GWR and LNWR lines at Blaenau Ffestiniog.

The Land Cruises ran in various guises ran from Rhyl to Corwen, Barmouth, Afon Wen and back in a circular route.

Merf.

[Marshall5]

What exactly happened at Blaenau Ffestiniog, where I seem to remember there were three separate stations all on the same shelf in the landscape, with a tangle of lines in between ?

We alighted from the single coach from Bala junction at the GW station in about 1959, then (years later), from the DMU from Llandudno junction at the LNW station.

Presumably those circular tours via Afon Wen (the Radio Train?) referred to earlier, ran via Ruabon rather than via Beddgelert and Bl F.

Up to the early 60's  both the GW station (from Bala) and the LNW one (from Llandudno Jc) were termini the only connection being the 2'g Festiniog which ran between the two stations.  When they were building the Trawsfynydd nuclear power station a standard gauge connection was built to gain access to the, by now disused, GW line from the ex LNW station and that connection still exists.  The third Blaenau terminus was the long disused F.R. one at Duffws.

IIRC the Radio Cruise train went out to the Cambrian Coast via Rhyl and Corwen and back via Afon Wen and Caernarfon.

Hope this helps.

Ray.

[The Stationmaster]

What exactly happened at Blaenau Ffestiniog, where I seem to remember there were three separate stations all on the same shelf in the landscape, with a tangle of lines in between ?

We alighted from the single coach from Bala junction at the GW station in about 1959, then (years later), from the DMU from Llandudno junction at the LNW station.

Presumably those circular tours via Afon Wen (the Radio Train?) referred to earlier, ran via Ruabon rather than via Beddgelert and Bl F.

The most interesting thing about Blaenau Festiniog was that the LNWR had Running Poewers over the Festiniog Railway between Blaenau Festiniog and Duffws.  They might possibly have been used in earlier times for slate wagons (I vaguely remember a photo caption from long ago with some sort of hint of that) but presumably it never involved locos working anything. By 1928 the Powers were shown as 'Not Exercised'.

[brianusa]

Mike, by coincidence I favour both lines, GW for sentimental reasons as I grew up with it and LMS for practical reasons, it happens to be the cheapest Hornby line compared with the rest of the Big Four although I recently acquired a 4-4-0 County.

 

Brian.