Flying Scotsman back on the mainline - 2016

[stewartingram]

And going back to my original post, I have to re-emphasise the point that 4472 HAS carried apple green livery whilst wearing German type smoke deflectors (though apparently not authentically shaped ones!) - over 10 years ago. That IS part of its history, and probably seen more times by many people than the number of times they saw it in BR service. So historically accurate for a ​working loco​. Not for a stuffed museum restoration though.

FS has also been converted to an A3 from its original A1 condition, and I believe from RH drive to LH - so stop asking for it to be repainted into authentic LNER livery!

 

Stewart

 

(looking forward to the green with purple spots livery, I will be there with my camera to record it for posterity).

Edited January 10, 2016 by stewartingram

[bill badger]

Took an excited 3 year old and a equally excited 70 year old on the 9am from Bury this morning. Awful weather: cold & rain showers and an hour late setting off, apparently due to a failed brake pump on the assisting Black 5 (meaning a 31446(?) had to step in), but no one seemed bothered. I suspect Bury Bolton Road hasn't been this busy (ever?). Huge turnout at Ramsbottom, Rawtenstall and Heywood to see her too. Didn't manage any pics due to the weather, crowds and having to wrangle a 3 year old. I think everyone was having a great time. I know it is fashionable in some circle to knock the Scotsman as a 'celebrity engine', but I for one  am pleased to see her back.

Edited January 9, 2016 by bill badger

[bill badger]

Here's one that we managed to snap

 

[Dunsignalling]

And going back to my original post, I have to re-emphasise the point that 4472 HAS carried apple green livery whilst wearing German type smoke deflectors (though apparently not authentically shaped ones!) - over 10 years ago. That IS part of its history, and probably seen more times by many people than the number of times they saw it in BR service. So historically accurate for a ​working loco​. Not for a stuffed museum restoration though.

FS has also been converted to an A3 from its original A1 condition, and I believe from RH drive to LH - so stop asking for it to be repainted into authentic LNER livery!

 

Stewart

 

(looking forward to the green with purple spots livery, I will be there with my camera to record it for posterity).

Yes it has; and it looked so wrong; if it is to carry LNER livery, the visible fittings/outline should tally as far as possible with that. Swapping over the distinctive LNER and BR bits is something that can be (and has been) done from time-to-time, why not apply an appropriate livery at the same time?

 

Complete authenticity, is not a state that FS could ever attain after all this time; so little remains of the original that it would become almost entirely a replica. What can and will be achieved, once the BR paint goes on, is a level of coherence which has probably not existed since 1963. Congratulations to all involved, FS appears to be in tip-top order.

 

I just don't buy the argument that, having been "wrong" for much of its time in preservation, it is legitimate or desirable to perpetuate that. As well as owning this loco, the NRM is our primary custodian of railway history and the authoritative source for much research into it; it has its own credibility to maintain as well as that of FS.

 

Your 'populist' point seems to be that more people have seen it "wrong" than "right", so wrong is now right. Why not take that to its logical conclusion; more kids will have seen the Thomas books and TV series than FS, so let's stick a face on it, paint it light blue and call it Gordon........... 

 

Of course, you couldn't possibly put smoke deflectors on that!

 

John

Edited January 10, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[runs as required]

Yes .... Why not take that to its logical conclusion; more kids will have seen the Thomas books and TV series than FS, so let's stick a face on it, paint it light blue and call it Gordon........... 

 

John

I think you are absolutely right with this suggestion.

Purists claim there is so much WRONG with poor old FS that it shold have been stuffed and mounted on a plinth. There has been so much spent on the loco that it ought now to be used as a PR lure; a bait (it always surprises me that NRM at York and Shildon are still entry Free!.Unlike Beamish or most other museums in York)

So why not as Gordon for a season? It could pull in a new generation of punters. One eleven year old grandson got pulled in via a Thomas face on the Nene Valley, the Geordie 9 year old similarly on the Tanfield.

 

Wha'ts the current state of the Hogwarts King?

 

dh

Edited January 10, 2016 by runs as required

[coachmann]

..........I have got used to seeing these numpty views about "anything goes" from a small handful of RMweb members. Sadly the silent majority is tarred by the same brush!  Or have I got it wrong? Is the majority on this forum a Hornby trainset group that views 12" to the 1' preserved steam railway as a giant Hornby trainset in which serious research and railway history plays no part.

Edited January 10, 2016 by coachmann

[58herbie]

Why the hell does it matter if its wrong or right. JUST ENJOY THAT THERE IS ANOTHER WORKING STEAM LOCOMOTIVE WORKING THE MAINLINE.

I suggest if the people who say its wrong to have this or wrong to have that dib in their shallow pockets and buy the loco. Then they can have it their way. It belongs to the nrm and they have the say how it should be to run in today's current fast way of life.

[coachmann]

Why the hell does it matter if its wrong or right. JUST ENJOY THAT THERE IS ANOTHER WORKING STEAM LOCOMOTIVE WORKING THE MAINLINE.

I suggest if the people who say its wrong to have this or wrong to have that dib in their shallow pockets and buy the loco. Then they can have it their way. It belongs to the nrm and they have the say how it should be to run in today's current fast way of life.

Indeed it does, and restoring NRM artifacts can be a daunting business when the NRM usually insists that original fitting be retained and repaired as much as possible when it would be cheaper to cast replacements. This being the NRM logic, one would assume they are also as keen on historical liveries being applied to its machines once the mechanical restoration has been completed. So apart from the launch livery of wartime black with BR smokebox number and German style smoke deflectors, I assume the A3 is eventually to carry BR lined green, the authentic livery for an A3 in this condition. 

Edited January 10, 2016 by coachmann

[58herbie]

Indeed it does, and restoring NRM artifacts can be a daunting business when the NRM usually insists that original fitting be retained and repaired as much as possible when it would be cheaper to cast replacements. This being the NRM logic, one would assume they are also as keen on historical liveries being applied to its machines once the mechanical restoration has been completed. So apart from the launch livery of wartime black with BR smokebox number and German style smoke deflectors, I assume the A3 is eventually to carry BR lined green, the authentic livery for an A3 in this condition.

Get over it it doesn't matter just be grateful its running and not stuffed like most other nrm assets.

[58herbie]

That's rather insulting without even reading between the lines. Perhaps some of us don't get too worked up about things that are beyond our control and just get on with life? Now there's a novel thought. There is life beyond trains, model or real and I would guess that's the majority view. I'd venture that the minority are those that can't see that. Another thread dissolves into bitterness.

HERE HERE PETE

[Mad McCann]

The whole issue of "authenticity" is fraught with peril when virtually every loco and every living thing (as perceptively noted earlier) has been constantly renewed through its life, much in the fashion of Trigger's Broom. Whilst it WILL look more authentic in BR dark green with the Kylchap and Witte deflectors, it really does pale into insignificance when placed on the scale of real world events one should be angered or concerned about today so let's just enjoy the fact we have a rejuvenated A3 back on the job without getting our collective Alans in a twist about it, ladies and gents. What say you?

 

Dave.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Mad McCann

[58herbie]

I say you've summed it up in a nutshell Dave.

 

Perfect answer

[The Stationmaster]

Has anyone made the point that 'Flying Scotsman' is not only

1

the most famous name of train/loco in the world in media terms, but

2

unfortunately is the only A3 to survive.

 

So, unlike a Castle or a King (or theA4s) there is not a range of preserved A3s that can represent salient stages in its life - maybe now even its 'preserved' life as well. So the poor beast has to be all things to all constituencies - of which perhaps the most important maybe the general media because that is how new supporters are attracted.

 

So we must expect 'Flying Scotsman' to appear in all manner of guises - though is it deliberate irony that the loco has been dressed to reappear in wartime livery and flaunting German smoke deflectors?

 

dh

I think the reason it is in black is very simple - the final livery will be added once the engineering folk are happy that everything is working correctly.

[Sir Hadyn]

Indeed it does, and restoring NRM artifacts can be a daunting business when the NRM usually insists that original fitting be retained and repaired as much as possible when it would be cheaper to cast replacements. This being the NRM logic, one would assume they are also as keen on historical liveries being applied to its machines once the mechanical restoration has been completed. So apart from the launch livery of wartime black with BR smokebox number and German style smoke deflectors, I assume the A3 is eventually to carry BR lined green, the authentic livery for an A3 in this condition. 

It will be a bit sooner than eventually. Certainly by March it will be in full BR green

[bill badger]

I think the reason it is in black is very simple - the final livery will be added once the engineering folk are happy that everything is working correctly.

 

My Dad managed to chat to several of the 'team' and mentioned this morning that this is exactly what he was told. The black is effectively an undercoat with the final colour to come after it's been tested, though they didn't say what colour.

 

I daresay this has been mentioned elsewhere, but Robson Green was also on the train with a film crew; apparently there is a documentary being made covering the rebuild. I don't know any other details though. Anyone?

Edited January 10, 2016 by bill badger

[Guest]

I wonder how long the argument of "It's not the actual engine, since barely any of it is original anymore" has been going. The same argument can be applied to 'Stepney'. If I remember correctly, the only 'original' piece left on that loco is the frames, and they're due for replacement.

This talk got me thinking, is FS really THE Flying Scotsman anymore. Many would say no, I suspect. I beg to differ.

What is FS, or any engine for that matter, but an assembled collection of parts collectively given a number (and a name in this case). As those parts wear out, you will need to replace them to keep the engine running as it should. Since the collection of parts that currently make up FS is a direct continuation from the original list to which it was built, while very little is 'original', it is still the Flying Scotsman in my eyes.

 

(Ducking for cover in 3...2...)

 

Regards,

Matt

Edited January 10, 2016 by TheSoutherner

[Reorte]

If you're deliberately aiming to recreate a loco (or anything else) as it once was, as far as is practically possible, then yes, it matters to try to get the details right and I find it rather sad that some people are getting so worked up about others who care. If you're not aiming for that then it doesn't matter at all. There's certainly an argument for either mainline steam running or a private railway to not be aiming for some sort of re-creation and just going with whatever they feel like. One argument I don't think has any merit at all though is that because there's so much you can't recreate / isn't original then none of it matters.

 

And the one thing I completely agree with it's that it's just good to see her running again,

[coachmann]

I saw locos in the 1950's that were 60 years old and more, but those of us who were around then didn't say, this isn't 52322 'cos it's been through works so many times since 1890 that none of the loco must be original! 

[Bon Accord]

It will be a bit sooner than eventually. Certainly by March it will be in full BR green

 

Do you know if the intention is for the loco to be outshopped with those LNER style commemorative plaques sited on the middle splasher, as seen during her latter preserved years?

[Sir Hadyn]

All plaques off. The appearance to be as close to 1962 as possible. We've not disposed of them, but want to present it with a lack of bling

[Shropshire Lad]

I went to the East Lancs today for a look and to take some pics. It looked and sounded good however the people who commented that they thought it looked better in blue with the sloping front end like it was when they saw it at the NRM does highlight the irrelevance of its colour/condition to the general public!

Edited January 10, 2016 by Shropshire Lad

[Metr0Land]

I think you are absolutely right with this suggestion.

Purists claim there is so much WRONG with poor old FS that it shold have been stuffed and mounted on a plinth. There has been so much spent on the loco that it ought now to be used as a PR lure; a bait (it always surprises me that NRM at York and Shildon are still entry Free!.Unlike Beamish or most other museums in York)

It MAY have changed but there was empirical evidence for the first decade of free entry at numerous museums that visitor numbers grew whilst those with entry charges did not.

 

This is an old article but gives the flavour. I can't find it but there was some more empirical evidence somewhere which seemed to show that Fee Entry + spend in the shops and restaurants was greater than Paid entry + spend in shops/restos.

 

http://www.museumsassociation.org/campaigns/free-admission-and-the-lottery

[PhilH]

If and when Hoskingrail takes off we'd better hope that he doesn't choose the colours of Crystal Palace FC, another of his toys which is dearer to him than his railway collection, as his corporate livery.

 

 

Actually, part of me hopes he does, the fallout would be fun.....

[RJS1977]

I think you are absolutely right with this suggestion.

Purists claim there is so much WRONG with poor old FS that it shold have been stuffed and mounted on a plinth. There has been so much spent on the loco that it ought now to be used as a PR lure; a bait (it always surprises me that NRM at York and Shildon are still entry Free!.Unlike Beamish or most other museums in York)

So why not as Gordon for a season? It could pull in a new generation of punters. One eleven year old grandson got pulled in via a Thomas face on the Nene Valley, the Geordie 9 year old similarly on the Tanfield.

 

Wha'ts the current state of the Hogwarts King?

 

dh

 

I'd actually go one stage further and say please HIT,can we have a live-action Thomas movie now (written by Chris Awdry of course!)?

[The Blue Streak]

I went to the East Lancs today for a look and to take some pics. It looked and sounded good however the people who commented that they thought it looked better in blue with the sloping front end like it was when they saw it at the NRM does highlight the irrelevance of its colour/condition to the general public!

 

This supports another story I have heard that may be of interest to somebody but kind of helps out with a theory I have (or not) :-

 

When a chap I knew was visiting the NRM some time ago. There was a young family standing in front of Mallard (he recalls she had a Flying Scotsman headboard on).

The family having looked at the headboard were under the impression that they were looking at the Flying Scotsman the Loco rather than another Loco with the FS (the Train) headboard. The family were so thrilled that they had thought they had seen FS the Loco that my friend thought it would have been a shame to burst their bubble and took their photo in front of the FS headboard for them and they went on their way as happy as can be.

 

My point being that among the general public there is still a some confusion that there is a Locomotive AND a train called FS. But that perhaps the Name "Flying Scotsman" (and perhaps the folklore and Myth surrounding it) is bigger than the Loco could ever be.

As Rail enthusiasts we have our own preferences and favourite's but I think 4472 / 60103 is the "Darling" of the less informed masses. Who care not one iota if it's Apple Green, BR Green or has Double or Single exhaust or Smoke Deflectors. They just know that the Flying Scotsman is the most famous Locomotive in the world and probably the only one they've heard of (except Thomas ).

 

If that family went away happy  in the knowledge (or lack of it) thinking that they had seen 4472 and as a result threw a few pound into the donations box or spent at the gift shop or even better, become involved. Then FS has done the Job it needs to do (or the Name has). Hopefully over the next few years back in the public eye the cost of bringing her back from the dead is far outweighed by the value she adds not just through charters and the like but by helping the next generation to make the step from Thomas to bigger things that may in the end bring benefit to Preservation and our Hobby long after  We are dead and gone.

 

That is I believe the truth worth of the Flying Scotsman. Keeping the name in the Public eye is crucial. I hope a million average folk come and see her. (Authentic or not) and hopefully give something back. That's her real purpose now. That's her job, she's a PR loco to the masses. So just relax and enjoy her for what she is. She'll earn her keep. If not in Pounds then in more important ways. Just my tuppence worth.

 

P.s Just a quick edit  to point out that FS has always been the PR machine Historically, even as far back as the Wembley Exhibition in 1925. So it's kind of fitting really.

Edited January 11, 2016 by The Blue Streak