Flying Scotsman back on the mainline - 2016

[coachmann]

Four million restoration and 10 bob on paint job. I'll bet Hornby is already knocking out a collectors edition.

[rockershovel]

The NRM website seems to be saying that the rear part of the frames, parts of the cab and some motion parts are the only remaining original metal. From context, I take that to be "as first preserved" although I suppose it could be "as originally constructed" , it doesn't say

 

I'd accept it as Flying Scotsman on tne basis that it is the current iteration of the locomotive bearing that name, and carrying any remaining original metal

Edited January 8, 2016 by rockershovel

[runs as required]

Flying Scotsman was the first loco authenticated to reach 100 mph. City of Truro is alleged to have reached tat speed but it was not authenticated.

So what about those Lehigh Valley camelbacks?

Didn't they get regularly lauded for hitting 'the ton' around the turn of the 19/20C ?

They certainly looked exciting beasts.

 

dh

[rockershovel]

One thing I certainly didn't know, was that "Papyrus" is variously quoted as being the first locomotive to achieve a documented 105mph, and to subsequently achieve 108mph, yet this seems largely overlooked now; I suppose the claim of priority, is the crucial aspect.

[stovepipe]

It seems the GWR fundamentalists are compelled to comment whenever the Scotsman 100 mph comes up. Popular history has it that FS was the first officially recorded ton, and no amount of 'whataboutery', revisionism and computer simulations 111 years later is about to change that popular perception. The opportunity to unequivically claim the 100 mph was lost by the GWR in 1904. History is littered with examples of such things.

[highpeakman]

As a confirmed GW fan, all the attention lauded on FS is of little consequence.  I fail to see, in spite of its fame, why its any different to any other loco and especially why its had millions spent on it.  Sure, its an icon of sorts but as has been said herein, by now its a bit of an ASP loco far removed from its LNER or earlier beginnings.  The mags can't get enough of it, many recent issues have competing articles about it which means they are only repeating each others 'news'.   Each of the other big four had their own comparable locomotives which are probably the favourites of many others.  As for livery, possibly it should remain in its earliest form being the most authentic, then LNER and finally BR in ex LNE condition without all the hardware installed over the years.

 

Brian.

 

I think that to people with an interest in railway history, such as most of the readers of this forum, FS may (or may not, depending on your individual preferences) get much more publicity and attention than it deserves but perhaps the real point is that by stirring up the public interest in preservation of steam it then brings the wider public into the heritage lines, museums and clubs where it benefits the whole movement. Do myths and small inaccuracies matter if this loco draws in much needed resources to preservation projects of all types when the general public visit heritage lines to see the "legendary FS"? This publicity for one loco, whether accurate or not, should not be unwelcome as I think it enables those of us with more knowledge to attain preservation of our own preferences in railway heritage slightly more easily.

 

Yes, my own preference is to see FS in BR green with "blinkers" again but I will be grateful to see it running in any form.

Edited January 9, 2016 by highpeakman

[mow]

Flying Scotsman link to Manchester Evening News feed.

 

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/flying-scotsman-passengers-railway-bury-10708982

[coachmann]

It is nostalgic today to see a lot more locos in historically accurate liveries. In bus preservation, I doubt an owner would show his vehicle off in 'Alfie Aspirin's Transport' livery (as sold) rather than its correct Corporation or PTE livery.

Edited January 9, 2016 by coachmann

[Dunsignalling]

I think that to people with an interest in railway history, such as most of the readers of this forum, FS may (or may not, depending on your individual preferences) get much more publicity and attention than it deserves but perhaps the real point is that by stirring up the public interest in preservation of steam it then brings the wider public into the heritage lines, museums and clubs where it benefits the whole movement. Do myths and small inaccuracies matter if this loco draws in much needed resources to preservation projects of all types when the general public visit heritage lines to see the "legendary FS"? This publicity for one loco, whether accurate or not, should not perhaps, be unwelcome as I think it enables those of us with more knowledge to attain preservation of our own preferences in railway heritage slightly more easily.

 

Yes, my own preference is to see FS in BR green with "blinkers" again but I will be grateful to see it running in any form.

The whole point is that all the bits and the livery should be from one period.

 

If it has German smoke deflectors and a double chimney, it should be painted BR Brunswick green as No. 60103. If you want to run it as 4472 in LNER apple green, lose the 'scoops' and stick the single chimney back on. I think the problem in the past was that owners wanted the latter along with the extra power provided by the former.

 

Unfortunately, the way FS has been presented in the past created the impression that it only ever carried that number and colour. Sending it out otherwise will, if nothing else, introduce the general public to a wider understanding of both the loco and our railway heritage in general.  

 

If we want to inform the uninitiated about what steam was like, we should strive to present things as correctly as possible. Some things have to be different in order to run on today's railway but there's no need or excuse for combining mismatched components with an anachronistic livery.

 

Would car enthusiasts fit a 1929 Le Mans Blower Bentley with the wheels and paint finish from a modern example of the marque? 

 

John

Edited January 9, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[Sir Hadyn]

Thanks John, that's why it's going BR green (but not brunswick green) with the detail alterations. We want it to be as close to its final BR condition as possible.

 

As you say, it also introduces people to a different period in its history.

 

My colleagues know I would like BR blue one day...

Edited January 9, 2016 by Sir Hadyn

[PhilH]

I sometimes don't get all this livery war nonsense. Surely all a,livery does is reflect the taste, or lack of, the current owner of the machine?

 

So, if I was to buy it, paint it purple with green spots,,being my company's present house colours then a ) who's to say that it is wrong b ) in 50 years time it will be a historically accurate livery depicting my custodianship of the thing?

 

I think that sometimes people who have had nothing to do with the purchase or restoration of these machines over estimate their right to have a say on the subject.

Edited January 9, 2016 by PhilH

[Butler Henderson]

Slightly amused to see Scotsman featured on "East Midlands Today" last night on the basis that it would be "appearing in Leicestershire" later in the year. Wonder how many other BBC regional news programs covered it - obviously Look North (Yorkshire) did and I presume North West Tonight would have. Possibly a good thing no other A3s were not preserved as they no doubt would all be disguised as 4472.

[The Blue Streak]

My colleagues know I would like BR blue one day...

 

I don't think you'd be alone in that. I think it would look smashing. 

But we best let the BR Green chaps have their day in the sun a little while first. I think some of them have been waiting a long time to see her like that.

Either way I'm just happy that she's back from the brink.

[gparr]

Slightly amused to see Scotsman featured on "East Midlands Today" last night on the basis that it would be "appearing in Leicestershire" later in the year. Wonder how many other BBC regional news programs covered it - obviously Look North (Yorkshire) did and I presume North West Tonight would have. Possibly a good thing no other A3s were not preserved as they no doubt would all be disguised as 4472.

 

I was looking around to see if FS will be making a visit to the GCR, but couldn't find anything on the NRM site. The "East Midlands Today" feature suggests it could be.

[highpeakman]

I think that to people with an interest in railway history, such as most of the readers of this forum, FS may (or may not, depending on your individual preferences) get much more publicity and attention than it deserves but perhaps the real point is that by stirring up the public interest in preservation of steam it then brings the wider public into the heritage lines, museums and clubs where it benefits the whole movement. Do myths and small inaccuracies matter if this loco draws in much needed resources to preservation projects of all types when the general public visit heritage lines to see the "legendary FS"? This publicity for one loco, whether accurate or not, should not be unwelcome as I think it enables those of us with more knowledge to attain preservation of our own preferences in railway heritage slightly more easily.

 

Yes, my own preference is to see FS in BR green with "blinkers" again but I will be grateful to see it running in any form.

 

In view of consequent posts perhaps I should qualify my words.

 

"This publicity for one loco, whether accurate or not...............". To be clear I do I think accuracy "within reason" should be the aim although I can already see the arguments about what is reasonable.

 

Of course FS (and any preserved loco) should "look" the part as most people would expect. So number it 4472 and paint it Apple green OR paint it BR green and number it 60103 (with or without blinkers). What I am not sure of is that for most people (including the non railway enthusiast supporters) is whether such detail as single or double chimney is so important.

 

Perhaps it is a bit like the fact that many of us who model accept the inaccuracy of 00 track but are happy to use it as a satisfactory "representation".

[runs as required]

Has anyone made the point that 'Flying Scotsman' is not only

1

the most famous name of train/loco in the world in media terms, but

2

unfortunately is the only A3 to survive.

 

So, unlike a Castle or a King (or theA4s) there is not a range of preserved A3s that can represent salient stages in its life - maybe now even its 'preserved' life as well. So the poor beast has to be all things to all constituencies - of which perhaps the most important maybe the general media because that is how new supporters are attracted.

 

So we must expect 'Flying Scotsman' to appear in all manner of guises - though is it deliberate irony that the loco has been dressed to reappear in wartime livery and flaunting German smoke deflectors?

 

dh

[coachmann]

I well remember A3's in BR green and so when I filmed Flying Scotsman on the Llangollen line backing down to its train in BR green with German smoke deflectors, it looked very nostalgic to me. Obviously if people remember seeing these locos in purple with green spots, I am happy for them and I wonder what they are on.... 

[Ian Hargrave]

In all of this,if it hasn't been said before,can we please raise a glass to Ian Riley and his treasured bunch of dedicated and skilled craftsmen. Never mind the bl###y paint.( just as long as it's not Hornby green ). It runs. Now it has to earn its keep.

[58herbie]

In all of this,if it hasn't been said before,can we please raise a glass to Ian Riley and his treasured bunch of dedicated and skilled craftsmen. Never mind the bl###y paint.( just as long as it's not Hornby green ). It runs. Now it has to earn its keep.

Well said.

[papagolfjuliet]

In all of this,if it hasn't been said before,can we please raise a glass to Ian Riley and his treasured bunch of dedicated and skilled craftsmen. 

 

Absolutely. From the footage I've seen, mechanically she's as silent as a Swiss watch. That isn't always the case with Gresley valve gear.

Edited January 9, 2016 by papagolfjuliet

[Nimbus]

The NRM website seems to be saying that the rear part of the frames, parts of the cab and some motion parts are the only remaining original metal. From context, I take that to be "as first preserved" although I suppose it could be "as originally constructed" , it doesn't say.

At Doncaster Plant 150 in 2003 we were allowed close enough to check some of this out. Having to be mindful of touristy snappers (snappy tourists?) it couldn't be thorough. But certainly the rear RHS main frames had welds following the outline of the original rectangular lightening holes of the first design iteration. So these apparently had been plugged to upgrade them to later standard.

 

The Nim.

[Ramrig]

As some have said earlier in the thread.

 

How much of this will be original if it is ever restored. This would apply to a lot of the locomotives/hulks liberated out of Barry Island restored or still awaiting restoration.

 

 

A debate for a separate thread?

 

Edit: forgot to add the image is of 35011General Steam Navigation

Edited January 9, 2016 by Ramrig

[coachmann]

Yay....Some sheds daan saath just couldn't recruit cleaners....

 

Edited January 9, 2016 by coachmann

[Nimbus]

Absolutely. From the footage I've seen, mechanically she's as silent as a Swiss watch. That isn't always the case with Gresley valve gear.

It became the case with A3's generally, when newly overhauled by Doncaster in the later years, when more disciplined and pro-active techniques were required to keep up with Gerry Fiennes' demands for more speed and reliability. The Irwell Press "LNER Pacifics Remembered" has details. 

 

As an aside, it also contains a contribution from a LMR engineer who arrived on the ER, where he became DMPS at Kings Cross, with a certain trepidation about the fragility of the Gresley middle big end. In practice, he found the problem to be nowhere near as bad as what he had dealt with on the Royal Scots.

 

The Nim.

[James Harrison]

Slightly amused to see Scotsman featured on "East Midlands Today" last night on the basis that it would be "appearing in Leicestershire" later in the year. Wonder how many other BBC regional news programs covered it - obviously Look North (Yorkshire) did and I presume North West Tonight would have. Possibly a good thing no other A3s were not preserved as they no doubt would all be disguised as 4472.

 

Add 'Midlands Today' and 'ITV Central News' to that list, on the basis it will be at the Severn Valley (wait for it wait for it) in September.  It takes less time than from 'now' until 'then' to conceive, gestate and birth a child, so why it just had to appear on West Midlands local news right now is beyond me. 

 

Nice it see it running again though.