0, 0-FS or S7?

[Knuckles]

Hello, I'm sure you're all sick of the same old questions being revisited yet again and again, but I haven't time to scale through all 44 pages.  Hope that's considered understandable, if not then delete this and I'll have to jog on.

 

Basically, I'd like to do some 0 gauge modelling, I've made a wagon kit and a brake van (in my blog somewhere) and they for the most part were fine to build.   My issue is the standard.

 

I have been modelling in P4 on and off as I like the accuracy and will continue to model in it every now and then, with 0 gauge however I have the same problem as 00 - those steam roller wheels, pizza cutter flanges and narrow gauge....ugh.

 

I wish I could ignore it, then it'd be so much easier but I can't.  My eye is instantly drawn to them as a focal point.

 

 

 

I perceive the advantage of 0 gauge being the easier accessibility of items, and that's about it.

 

--

 

 

For those in the know could you please run us through the pro's and con's of each to help me/us/anyone interested make an informed decision because correct me if I'm wrong, but I think If I remember right 0 gauge is 2mm's narrow gauge, FS/Finescale is 1mm narrow gauge and (smaller flanges and crossing flangeway on common crossings??) S7/Scale 7 is pretty much bang on lest for the fact that you have to do more yourself and getting the wheels apparently is harder than waking up a frozen mammoth.

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!

 

 

[hartleymartin]

In 7mm scale I find that the difference isn't that much to bother about. Ask yourself whether scale appearance is what you want. You will find that you most certainly must use compensation or springing on everything that turns a wheel.

 

The difference between Fine 7mm and Scale7 is about the same as EM to P4. The 1mm difference in gauge represents about 3.5% "error"

 

Finescale O gauge also works better if you get sneaky and build track at 1:45 scale. Better still, narrow the gauge to 31.5mm and you get a much closer to scale flangeway theough points which starts to approach scale7 appearance but remains compatible with Fine7 standards.

[Simond]

It's personal taste, at the end of the day.

 

IMO, 31.5 gauge offers an acceptable compromise between universal running of others' stock/on others' layouts, good running without "frog drop", easy availability of bits & pieces, reasonable radii of corners, and appearance.

 

At two arms' lengths, I doubt you can tell the difference, but S7 looks better close up. But it doesn't tick some of the other boxes, for me.

 

Yer pays yer money....

 

Best

Simon

[HeatherKay]

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!

 

The others have already given some thoughts. As a long-time paid-up S7 member and former member of the Group's steering committee you could argue I'm biased, but here's my two-penn'orth.

 

Pop over to the ScaleSeven Group's web site. Have a look at the information there, such as the technical stuff and what is going on in the Group itself. Have a look and see if there's an area group in your locality, and go along to a meeting. It's the best way to decide if S7 is for you or not. You just missed a national meet-up in Somerset, there'll be an open meeting in Oxfordshire next spring. Visit a GOG or ALSRM show and see if there's an S7 society stand and chat to the bods manning it. 

 

Building the track work to suit the visual standards you would expect will be no harder in fine scale than in S7: all the jigs and gauges are available from the Group, with discounts if you are a member, and quite a lot is available from the likes of C&L. S7 profile wheelsets are available for wagons and coaches from the trade, the Group has embarked on a growing range of S7 profile loco drivers, carrying and tender wheels, and anything not covered yet can be reprofiled, either by yourself or by members of the Group that offer the service.  

 

I'd argue that coming from P4 to the larger scale, S7 is a no brainer. That said, there are pros and cons to consider. Do you, for example, expect to be able to run stock on other people's layouts, or will you building just for your own pleasure. 

 

Like I said, see if you can find a local area group to visit before you make a final choice. 

[BG John]

I'm new to it too, and have previously (and intend to continue) modelled in EM and P4 broad gauge. I feel happy with finescale, as it's pretty much the 7mm equivalent of EM, but has the big advantage that it's also what's supported by the trade, including RTR products. I don't want to spend huge amounts of time and money converting everything I buy to S7. I'm even happy to narrow the gauge to 31.5mm to improve the flangeways, as it's still the equivalent of 18mm gauge in 4mm.

 

If I model the broad gauge in 7mm, I may well choose S7 though, as that's what other BG modellers use, and the finer flanges and narrower wheels should fit the locos and rolling stock more easily. Which is the reason I went for P4 standards in 4mm.

 

Having said that, in an ideal world, with the time, money, and ability to organise my time well enough to be a prolific modeller, I'd do everything in S7 and P4!

[Davey]

Just to add my two penneth, up until I started modelling seriously at the age of 64, I'd never built or completed anything, but had been an armchair modeller all my life, or to put it more accurately, I'd pipe dreamed about my masterpiece, whatever that was going to be! So as I contemplated finally taking the plunge, I visited exhibitions to examine in minute detail how things were done and to get an impression of what could be created. One layout alone, Oakhurst by Geoff Stenner, convinced me that Scale 7 was the way to go. My view is that there are some exceptional locomotive and rolling stock builders out there that produce very accurate representations of various prototype vehicles, masterpieces I could never hope to emulate. 

 

But there's one thing that irks me, and that is why go to the lengths of producing masterpieces and then run them on what is effectively narrow gauge track. Don't get me wrong, I'm not levelling criticism at anyone, there are some wonderfully, artistic, atmospheric layouts out there, any one of which I'd be proud to call me own. What it really boils down to is attitude of mind, call it mind set. As Heather says in the previous post, all the gauges required are available from the Scale 7 Group, and wheels are available to Scale 7 standards from Slater's, JPL models, and others. It's just as easy to build track to Scale 7 as it is to 7mm FS, each is constructed to it's own standards, but at the end of the day in both cases were talking about producing to specified dimensions and one is as easy to achieve as the other. Ultimately it comes down to visual appearance, so you pays your money and you make your choice.

 

I know many people, look upon Scale 7 as elitist, and I think there's some truth in that, although many of it's members will staunchly deny such accusations, but ultimately it comes down to choice and what you want to achieve. If you are contemplating Scale 7, go for it and take note of what Heather has to say.

 

Davey

[Western Star]

I have been modelling in P4 on and off as I like the accuracy...

 

S7/Scale 7 is pretty much bang on lest for the fact that you have to do more yourself and getting the wheels apparently is harder than waking up a frozen mammoth.

If you are happy with modelling in P4 then you ought to be comfortable and capable of working with S7.  As for wheels, there are very few S7 modellers who hunt mammoths.  Wagon and coach wheels are available with S7 B2B and S7 tyre profiles from Slaters and from Peartree.  Locomotive wheels are available from the S7 Group (dependent upon prototype).

 

regards, Graham

[peter220950]

My thoughts, for what their worth, are that it depends entirely on your circumstances, time, money, modelling ability, attitude, and intended uses of your stock.

 

You are also in an ideal position to choose the right path, rather than be chanelled down a path by what was available , which many of us have been. I started out with a choice of Coarse or Lima! By now it's far too late to start again.

 

If you are a competent modeller, with time (or money) to produce or convert all your stock and loco's, and are happy to build (or pay to have made) your own track, then I would think S7 has to be the way, I don't think it's any harder to get it right in S7 than any other O gauge format, but you can't just buy stuff off the shelf quite so easily.

 

I think that if I had a clear start I might have gone down that route, but again other things dictate decisions, like wanting to run your stock on friends' layouts, or a Club layout - as I said it's down to your circumstances.

 

I have a suspicion, based on what I have seen of P4 modellers as a 'breed', that you might find that anything other than S7 would be viewed as a wrong decision some months or years down the line. - I'm not to fussy about what I do, I just like making stuff, you guys like making it 'right', and I don't think a change of scale will change that mindset?

 

Almost everything in your original post screams out S7, ("I like accuracy", "steam roller wheels" "I wish I could ignore it, then it'd be so much easier but I can't.  My eye is instantly drawn to them as a focal point."), with the exception of your concern over the availability of wheels. - That's not anything I have experience of, but I've certainly seen a lot more S7 loco's than wooly mammoths, so I don't think it's that bad, and I certainly wouldn't be put off by it. I would get a couple of wagon wheelsets and convert your wagons to see what you think, it's a cheap check on your thought processes at this stage and may well save you money in the long term if you become dissilusioned with O and then have to re-gauge a whole lot of stock and re-build track.

 

Good luck whichever route you go down, and keep us posted on progress.

 

Peter

[MarcD]

I can only speak from my experience of my own modelling and the comments of my customers. I model in fine scale but a lot of my customers do scale 7, from a kit availability Wagons and coaches on the whole can be built in either standard with out much difficulty as all you need to do is change over the wheels and add springing if required. I have been told that converting loco kits can be more complex as the chassis and foot plates would have to altered to give clearance for the wider wheel sets.

 

Marc  

[hartleymartin]

Actually, the fine standard wheels on a 32mm gauge axle are more or less the same overall width as scaleseven wheelsets. Scaleseven wheels have a wider back-to-back, but the treads are narrower than fine standard.

 

Locomotives are tricky to convert, because of things such as wheel splashers need to be narrowed and the frames spaced further apart. Most locomotive frames are spaced at about 25-26mm, when the should be closer to 28-29mm to be scale width. 

 

It does largely depend on the prototype, but you will find that most O gauge outside motion is practically scale width. If you model a prototype with inside cylinders then it becames virtually a non-issue.

I've been following the small band of S7 modellers here in Australia. It produces some nice results, but for what I want to do, it isn't worth the extra effort.

[ROSSPOP]

Hi Knuckles.

 

Like you I (still am) have been a P4 railway modeller, myself since the late 70`s.

 

Coming up to retirement I moved towards 7mm modelling and chose the Finescale format, initially because I did`nt want the hassle of converting RTR locos and stock to S7....and some of it is hassle.

 

I also wanted to run my stock on other peoples layouts and be one of `the common herd`.

 

In the 4mm world it seemed such a rewarding leap from steam roller 00 gauge wheels as well as the visual improvement and running with P4 track.

 

However, in 7mm, I dont feel that finescale wheels look `steam roller`  and my recent spate of 7mm trackbuilding using C&L parts has produced decent performing pointwork with minimal `wheel drop`  and without reducing the pointwork gauge to 31.5mm.

 

Also if you choose to build 7mm loc kits  there is the further compromise of them being designed to finescale tolerances with regard to frame and splasher widths , unless you are happy with just converting them to S7.

 

You will,of course , transfer your acquired P4 skills into 7mm and it is a myth that 7mm locos being heavy do not need any compensation. They probably dont if you thrash them round a garden layout pulling tin plate stock, but if you wish to maintain the fine control of locos that us P4 modellers strive for ,then you will need to consider it.

 

I guess it all depends on where your railway modelling compromises need to be.

 

But I will leave you with this 00 guage gem , a favourite of mine as it is GWR,   There are few P4 or S7 railway modellers that achieve this level of atmosphere.

 

 

 

The work of David Cox.  RM 2012

 

Regards and happy deciding....

 

John

[3 link]

Another problem which has not been discussed so far is the layout itself, S7 is fine if you are modelling an out and back, branch line terminus, but if you want a roundy - roundy you are looking at a radius of 8' unless your going to be happy operating 0-4-0's and 0-6-0's. The tolerances are not so forgiving in S7, mainly due to the more prototype frame widths, just my take on this subject.

 

Martyn.

[AdamsRadial]

I've been collecting clockwork for years, so I am unashamedly O-coarse, but am slowly building stock to the finer standard now.

 

I think the camera advances in the past few years are a lot of the reason people start blanching at their standards and looking to go finer, most cameras now do close-ups and incredible detail even on low-light that thirty years ago would have been very difficult. So if you are intending to take lots of photos of your layout, then I think you have to go down the finescale route, but if you just like making and running things, I'd say the coarser standards are a lot less effort.

[ian@stenochs]

Hi.

 

I modelled in P4 from 1972 until 1995 when I changed to 7mm scale. I built a few wagons and a locomotive but found the compromises, particularly in the loco, to be a step too far. I built a new loco chassis to S7 standards and since then have built up a collection, 40+ locos, all to S7 standards and mostly scratch built.

 

It is much more than 1mm on the gauge. 0 gauge wheels are way too thick and the frames have to be set very close together to accommodate the very under scale back to back gauge. Combined with the over scale flanges some drastic modification of boilers and footplate dimensions make building problematic. If you want to fit, even non working, valve gear the between frame sizes make it more difficult. With S7 one just uses the prototype dimensions, no compromises, Simples!

 

Wheels are no problem, most loco wheels on the market can be turned to S7 dimensions, easy if you have a lathe but there are a number of firms who will do it for you, and the S7 group have a growing range of ready to run wheels. Wagon and coach wheels are readily available from Slaters and others so no excuse for having a go.

 

If you are interested in building SCALE models rather than caricatures then S7 is the only way to go, in 7mm sale anyway.

 

Ian.

[3 link]

Hi.

I modelled in P4 from 1972 until 1995 when I changed to 7mm scale. I built a few wagons and a locomotive but found the compromises, particularly in the loco, to be a step too far. I built a new loco chassis to S7 standards and since then have built up a collection, 40+ locos, all to S7 standards and mostly scratch built.

It is much more than 1mm on the gauge. 0 gauge wheels are way too thick and the frames have to be set very close together to accommodate the very under scale back to back gauge. Combined with the over scale flanges some drastic modification of boilers and footplate dimensions make building problematic. If you want to fit, even non working, valve gear the between frame sizes make it more difficult. With S7 one just uses the prototype dimensions, no compromises, Simples!

Wheels are no problem, most loco wheels on the market can be turned to S7 dimensions, easy if you have a lathe but there are a number of firms who will do it for you, and the S7 group have a growing range of ready to run wheels. Wagon and coach wheels are readily available from Slaters and others so no excuse for having a go.

If you are interested in building SCALE models rather than caricatures then S7 is the only way to go, in 7mm sale anyway.

Ian.

It might be a SCALE model but at the end of the day it's still got an electric motor in it. : )

 

Martyn.

[Simond]

Ian

 

It's quite difficult to maintain an "S7 modellers are not elitist" stance if you characterise other's models as "caricatures". It's elitist at best, insulting at worst, and far from constructive.

 

As I mentioned earlier, it's always a compromise - and it's down to the individual.

 

You, and the OP, may well be able to run expresses round 20' minimum radius curves, or alternatively, may be happy with a shunting plank and if so, S7 may well be an appropriate choice. It may provide great satisfaction, and if so, fine.

 

For those of us who have perhaps less space, or grander plans, other scale/gauge choices and relationships may be more suitable.

 

Not better, not worse, just different.

 

Best

Simon

[Nearholmer]

I@St E,

 

Unless, or until, someone builds a perfect miniature of a railway in 7mm/ft scale, and by miniature I mean true in materials and function, as well as external dimensions, then we will all be choosing various combinations of compromises.

 

I guess you have chosen your compromises (my guess would be compromises like: no Stephenson multi-tubular boilers; carriage doors that don't open; brakes that don't work; vehicles made of brass and nickel-silver, that kind of thing), so why do you feel it necessary to use a pejorative word to describe other people's choices?

 

Anyway, other than that, an interesting thread. And, pretty much the same in tone and content as the same "thread" in 'Model Railways & Locomotive' c1910, when Henry Greenly first proposed a standard set of dimensions for 0 scale track.

 

Kevin

[hartleymartin]

Observe Rule #1 of Model Railways - They are YOUR trains. Do what makes YOU happy. There are plenty of American modellers out there who still use 3-rail, or high-rail which absolutely HUGE pizza-cutter wheels, but they enjoy their hobby no less than someone who models in Proto48 (1/4" scale's equivalent of Scale7)

[MarcD]

One man's meat is another man's poison. I like pre-grouping 7mm FS and 014 NG but I also have a 09 NG layout in a toybox, two weeks a go I was operating a EM blue diesel micro layout. Model what you want, when you want, how you want. If I had the time and money to convert all my stock to S7 possibly not. Would I look at building a small S7 shunting layout possibly.  

 

I'm in the process of designing a kit for a customer who runs S7 but the kit that reaches the market will be aimed at 7FS. The customer is going to swap the axel guards for sprung ones from slaters. Other than that there is no difference.

 

Have fun with what ever you choose.

 

Marc   

[81A Oldoak]

Hi.

 

I modelled in P4 from 1972 until 1995 when I changed to 7mm scale. I built a few wagons and a locomotive but found the compromises, particularly in the loco, to be a step too far. I built a new loco chassis to S7 standards and since then have built up a collection, 40+ locos, all to S7 standards and mostly scratch built.

 

It is much more than 1mm on the gauge. 0 gauge wheels are way too thick and the frames have to be set very close together to accommodate the very under scale back to back gauge. Combined with the over scale flanges some drastic modification of boilers and footplate dimensions make building problematic. If you want to fit, even non working, valve gear the between frame sizes make it more difficult. With S7 one just uses the prototype dimensions, no compromises, Simples!

 

Wheels are no problem, most loco wheels on the market can be turned to S7 dimensions, easy if you have a lathe but there are a number of firms who will do it for you, and the S7 group have a growing range of ready to run wheels. Wagon and coach wheels are readily available from Slaters and others so no excuse for having a go.

 

If you are interested in building SCALE models rather than caricatures then S7 is the only way to go, in 7mm sale anyway.

 

Ian.

Oh dear, oh dear. I am glad that the 3,000+ owners of our models are happy with their caricatures.

[ROSSPOP]

I second what Marc has just said........

 

ENJOY....whatever you do in railway modelling.....

 

I,m sure you will discover that to some railway modelling is an illness rather than a hobby.....

 

John

[HeatherKay]

Oh dear, oh dear. I am glad that the 3,000+ owners of our models are happy with their caricatures.

 

Judging by the number running round the test track at the S7 Mark meeting, quite a few S7 modellers like them, too.

[Giles]

...... That settles it for me - I'll stick with doing my 'caricatures' .....

[Knuckles]

(EDIT: Appologies for all the typo's. I'll edit it once on computor, touch screen on mobile isn't great.)

 

 

 

May I just give a huge hearty thankyou go all in this thread who have collectively replied. Your views have helped tremendously and I'll be saving this internet mage to revisit and mull over - that's a given.

 

I didn't expect so many replies. I only posted a day or few ago.

 

Truth is I don't use RMweb much because I find the layout, format and quick traffic awkward but it's experiences like this that make me think twice, so again thankyou much.

 

Based on what some of you have said I may go for it.

 

It's true that the visuals are important to me. P4 is a venture that I am very pleased with, it's slower going than 00 for obvious reasons but much more satisfying once you have achieved something. I also find the brainwashing effect to be good, what I mean is, you know you can't simply buy a rtr engine and plonk it on your track so it almost eliminates impulse buying and forces you to think wiser, than it turn makes you take more care and you put more in to each creation and appreciate them more. So in some ways it can be cheaper as you end up with a few gems as apposed to a bucket of common rocks. I guess this thinking will translate in S7 fine.

 

The biggest stumblijg block to me is the 'obtanation' (made up word!) Of the S7 wheels but as has been said if I'm part of the group then I could commision someone to profile a few, isn't like I'll be doing it too often realistically speaking. Also it 0uts food on your table (or a wagon on your baseboard) so everyone benefits potentially.

 

In P4 I have built a B7 LH point into a Single Slip and two other standard turnouts of different radiai ok and they work. I genuinly get a kick out of rolling my P4 wagons through them because they are nust so silky smooth in comparison to 00 ones.

 

I use mainly Bill Bedford units and like them a lot.

 

I do still much about with 00 stuff as it is less stressfull and I can just slip into easy nostalgic kiddie mode from time to time but accuracy is important visually.

 

I like track building so I'm happy to do that. I like playing when things work properly but I get most pleasure out of making mini movies on the layout.

 

I have been planning a 17ft x 11 ft P4 layout for a few years that once the loft is sorted I'll hopefully start as a long term (15-20 years?) Project. It'll be a roundy roundy but I was thinking of adding a 15ft 7mm lqyout above it on one side as an end to end and use the base as a lighting pelmet for the P4 one underneithe. That's the initial plan anyway.

 

Does anyone have links to the 0FS pages where you can get stuff etc?

 

Maybe I'll go S7 thoug I don't know.

 

Again, thanks for the responces, if you have a reply to this great, if not no worries.

 

Also if you'd like to.see what I believe is a fairly well done 0 gauge brake van please have a look in my blog.

[hartleymartin]

For wagons, and a huge range of wheelsets, go to the website for Slaters www.slatersplatikard.com

 

More wagons can be had from Parkside Dundas and other suppliers.

 

Roxey Mouldings is also worth looking at.

 

Connoiseur Models (Jim McGowen) does a good range of etched kits which are suitable for all skill ranges.
(Personally I prefer to work in plastic and wood, but etched kits make really nice models.)

Dragon Models do a lot of useful things.

 

I am sure that there is a myriad of other suppliers which will cater to most of what you could possibly want.