BR diesel shunters - some livery & detail questions

[D5541]

In the beginning was the plan

And then came the assumptions

And the assumptions were without form, the plan was without substance

And darkness was upon the faces of the workers...

 

And we all know how that story ends so I'm going to start my plan with something resembling proper research :-)

 

Ok, so, I have a few questions about the BR shunters, classes 01 - 12, primarily interested in BR service rather than preservation era. I'll add any more as I think of them but for starters

 

Did any class other than the 01 carry black with wasp stripes in service?

 

Class 02 - did any of these make it into BR blue, and did they carry TOPS numbers or was it Dxxxx for the duration?

 

Class 04 - am I right in thinking some of these made it to BR blue but only ever had Dxxxx numbers?

 

Class 10/11/12 - are there any significant external differences between these and the class 08/09 or is it a case of finding a model of the latter with the correct boxes on the side and renumbering it?

 

Thanks in advance :-)

 

Dan

[Rivercider]

We have had a few threads in the past regarding liveries of shunting locos, have you managed to find them?

 

One query I remember was about the class 02s, three of them survived long enough to get TOPS numbers 02001, 02003 and 02004  

they were all withdrawn by BR in 1975 all still in green livery. 

02003 was sold into industrial use and did later get painted blue.

 

cheers

[Clive Mortimore]

In the beginning was the plan

And then came the assumptions

And the assumptions were without form, the plan was without substance

And darkness was upon the faces of the workers...

 

And we all know how that story ends so I'm going to start my plan with something resembling proper research :-)

 

Ok, so, I have a few questions about the BR shunters, classes 01 - 12, primarily interested in BR service rather than preservation era. I'll add any more as I think of them but for starters

 

Did any class other than the 01 carry black with wasp stripes in service?

 

Class 02 - did any of these make it into BR blue, and did they carry TOPS numbers or was it Dxxxx for the duration?

 

Class 04 - am I right in thinking some of these made it to BR blue but only ever had Dxxxx numbers?

 

Class 10/11/12 - are there any significant external differences between these and the class 08/09 or is it a case of finding a model of the latter with the correct boxes on the side and renumbering it?

 

Thanks in advance :-)

 

Dan

Hi Dan

 

Class 10, these had all the multiple variations found on the 08 as they were built at the same time. Check photos of the loco you wish to model.

 

Class 11, different size wheels, lower running plate, different shaped cab, different engine room doors, different hand rail rails, different radiator fillers, different lights and some other minor details. More differences than between a Saint class 4-6-0 and a Grange class 4-6-0. The only class of over 100 diesel locomotives that has never been available in R-T-R or kit form.

 

Class 12, (SR version of class 11) Same sized wheels as a 08, but they were Bulleid-Firth-Brown design, like found on a Q1 or a Spam Can. Running plate same height as a 08, everything else is like a class 11.

 

Edit, forgot to say that the battery boxes were longer on class 11 and 12 and they did not have vacuum brake exhauster boxes, in fact they did not have any train brakes. There were also 6 WR built 350s that looked just like the class 11, never had a TOPS number. In later years these had another variation on the lights and conduit.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Clive Mortimore

[lapford34102]

Edit, forgot to say that the battery boxes were longer on class 11 and 12 and they did not have vacuum brake exhauster boxes, in fact they did not have any train brakes.

Hi,

just a footnote to this. At least 4 Class 12's were fitted with air brakes in 67 as part of the Bomo' electrification.

A couple were usually at Weymouth working the tram until AB'd 03's appeared. When they arrived they only had 3 link couplings so a couple of loose screw couplings had to be scavenged. Not liked on the tram as visibility running hood forward wasn't very good.

 

Stu

[jonny777]

In the beginning was the plan

And then came the assumptions

And the assumptions were without form, the plan was without substance

And darkness was upon the faces of the workers...

 

And we all know how that story ends so I'm going to start my plan with something resembling proper research :-)

 

Ok, so, I have a few questions about the BR shunters, classes 01 - 12, primarily interested in BR service rather than preservation era. I'll add any more as I think of them but for starters

 

Did any class other than the 01 carry black with wasp stripes in service?

 

Class 02 - did any of these make it into BR blue, and did they carry TOPS numbers or was it Dxxxx for the duration?

 

Class 04 - am I right in thinking some of these made it to BR blue but only ever had Dxxxx numbers?

 

Class 10/11/12 - are there any significant external differences between these and the class 08/09 or is it a case of finding a model of the latter with the correct boxes on the side and renumbering it?

 

Thanks in advance :-)

 

Dan

 

 

You are right. No class 04 was renumbered, but some received blue - and suprisingly quickly it would seem

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/16236990@N08/2983080745/in/photolist-5xB4YD-5xB4T6-5w9qRF-fJWo13

 

http://www.railblue.com/pages/Class%2004/D2295_SL_141269.htm

 

And there is this thread

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66882-class-04-shunters-in-action-br-blue/

[D5541]

Brilliant start, thanks guys :-)

 

I'll have a hunt around n see what other threads I can find on shunter liveries.

 

Bit disappointed about the 02, would they have had double arrows if they carried TOPS numbers while green?

 

Re Class 11/12 - are there any kits of these available or is it a case of major surgery on an rtr 08?

 

Next list, I'll leave this as a fill in the blanks question, most of what I know ive got from Internet, magazines and the back of cereal boxes etc, and is far from complete, but as far as geographical spread goes...

 

Class 01 - Holyhead Breakwater

Class 02 -?

Class 03 - nationwide

Class 04 - nationwide

Class 05 -?

Class 06 - mainly Scotland, one at Reading

Class 07 - Southampton Docks

Class 08 - nationwide

Class 09 - nationwide

Class 10 -?

Class 11 -?

Class 12 - Mainly London?

Class 13 - Tinsley

 

Thanks again :-)

[Phil Bullock]

Someone might prove me wrong but....

 

I don't think 03/04 were ever in Scotland.....

 

Kind regards

 

Phil

[Clive Mortimore]

Brilliant start, thanks guys :-)

 

I'll have a hunt around n see what other threads I can find on shunter liveries.

 

Bit disappointed about the 02, would they have had double arrows if they carried TOPS numbers while green?

 

Re Class 11/12 - are there any kits of these available or is it a case of major surgery on an rtr 08?

 

Next list, I'll leave this as a fill in the blanks question, most of what I know ive got from Internet, magazines and the back of cereal boxes etc, and is far from complete, but as far as geographical spread goes...

 

Class 01 - Holyhead Breakwater

Class 02 -?

Class 03 - nationwide

Class 04 - nationwide

Class 05 -?

Class 06 - mainly Scotland, one at Reading

Class 07 - Southampton Docks

Class 08 - nationwide

Class 09 - nationwide

Class 10 -?

Class 11 -?

Class 12 - Mainly London?

Class 13 - Tinsley

 

Thanks again :-)

Class 01 - Holyhead Breakwater....Started life at Stratford

Class 02 -? Liverpool area

Class 03 - nationwide...ER, NER, WR and SR. A few to LMR later.

Class 04 - nationwide...ER, NER, SR. Later to LMR. Some to WR, ex SR locos due to boundary changes

Class 05 -? Hunslet or Barclay? Hunslet, ER, most to LMR before withdrawal. One to the Isle of White, in fact the only one to be left in service when they are classed as 05. Second and third variations ScR and NER. Barclay 204 hp 0-6-0 ER. Only one Barclay was in service on the introduction of TOPS but that was soon withdrawn.

Class 06 - mainly Scotland, one at Reading All ScR, Reading loco was a very late transfer to the signal works.

Class 07 - Southampton Docks

Class 08 - nationwide, none east of Cambridge or Colchester for many years

Class 09 - nationwide SR mainly for many years, most non SR locos were later rebuilds from 08s

Class 10 -? ER and LMR

Class 11 -? most LMS built locos were LMR based, BR built ones ER and NER

Class 12 - Mainly London? All over the SR

Class 13 - Tinsley

 

No kits for the LMS or SR 350s (classes 11 and 12), as stated in the earlier post of mine there were numerous differences between these early 350s and the BR standard 350s. I looked into converting a 08 into a 11, it would need a new cab, sides are taller and roof is a flatter profile, front cab windows are a different shape, they do not slope down at the bottom. The engine room doors, and battery boxes need changing, it would be easier to cut out the Bachmann or Hornby engine room sides and replace then with new from plastic card. On the LMS locos the lower running plate means the buffer beams are not so deep so they will need renewing. New handrails, new lights and their conduit. New radiator fillers. Most important are the wheels, the LMS locos had 4 ft 1 1/2 inch wheels, not 4 ft 6 inch as on an 08. I am not to certain how easy it would be to re-wheel either of the R-T-R models. With the SR locos the Bulleid-Firth-Brown wheels are not available, overlays to the R-T-R wheels might work. I have looked into converting a 08 into a class 11, It looks like it would be easier to scratchbuild.........I have the wheels and motors to make two, but not the time.

[D5541]

Thanks Phil, Clive :-)

 

I think the 11/12 will have to be shunted? down the to do list for now, not quite competent enough for an all out scratchbuild yet :-/

Having splashed out on the Heljan 05 recently, I worked out I've got, in varying states, classes 03-09, so I thought why not go for one each of 01-13 and complete the set :-)

[Rivercider]

Brilliant start, thanks guys :-)

 

I'll have a hunt around n see what other threads I can find on shunter liveries.

 

Bit disappointed about the 02, would they have had double arrows if they carried TOPS numbers while green?

 

Re Class 11/12 - are there any kits of these available or is it a case of major surgery on an rtr 08?

 

Next list, I'll leave this as a fill in the blanks question, most of what I know ive got from Internet, magazines and the back of cereal boxes etc, and is far from complete, but as far as geographical spread goes...

 

Class 01 - Holyhead Breakwater

Class 02 -?

Class 03 - nationwide

Class 04 - nationwide

Class 05 -?

Class 06 - mainly Scotland, one at Reading

Class 07 - Southampton Docks

Class 08 - nationwide

Class 09 - nationwide

Class 10 -?

Class 11 -?

Class 12 - Mainly London?

Class 13 - Tinsley

 

Thanks again :-)

Here are 02003 and 02004 at Allerton Depot after withdrawal still in green 22/6/75

 

cheers

[br2975]

Brilliant start, thanks guys :-)

 

I'll have a hunt around n see what other threads I can find on shunter liveries.

 

Bit disappointed about the 02, would they have had double arrows if they carried TOPS numbers while green?

 

Re Class 11/12 - are there any kits of these available or is it a case of major surgery on an rtr 08?

 

Next list, I'll leave this as a fill in the blanks question, most of what I know ive got from Internet, magazines and the back of cereal boxes etc, and is far from complete, but as far as geographical spread goes...

 

Class 01 - Holyhead Breakwater

Class 02 -?

Class 03 - nationwide

Class 04 - nationwide

Class 05 -?

Class 06 - mainly Scotland, one at Reading

Class 07 - Southampton Docks

Class 08 - nationwide

Class 09 - nationwide

Class 10 -?

Class 11 -?

Class 12 - Mainly London?

Class 13 - Tinsley

 

Thanks again :-)

 

Class 01 - Holyhead Breakwater

Class 02 - Preston area, allocated Lostock Hall, Goole, Salford

Class 03 - nationwide - excluding Scottish Region

Class 04 - nationwide - excluding (i) Scottish Region & (ii) Western Region (except for a handful in the Worcester area)

Class 05 - excluding (i) Southern Region (except D2554 in Departmental use on the IOW) and (ii) Western Region

Class 06 - mainly Scotland, one at Reading

Class 07 - Southampton Docks, also Bournemouth

Class 08 - nationwide

Class 09 - Initially Southern Region only but with two allocated to the Liverpool area. Later moved elsewhere and joined by subsequent conversions i.e. 09/1 and 09/2

Class 10 - Predominantly Eastern Region

Class 11 - Predominantly Midland & Eastern Region, none regularly allox to Western & Southern. WR version in the 151xx series initially allocated to Old Oak Common, later to Cardiff Canton and finally LMR around Birmingham.

Class 12 - several Southern Region depots, not solely the London area

Class 13 - Tinsley

[Phil Bullock]

A few additions to Brians comprehensive contribution..

 

04s on WR ....at Worcester, previously at Hereford

 

05s on WR.... 3 at Swindon, see posts 127 and 242 in http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65792-hunslet-class-05/page-10

 

Kind regards

 

Phil

Edited October 23, 2015 by Phil Bullock

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi D5541

 

What period are you modelling? I ask this because several of the classes you mention never received their TOPS numbers despite them being allocated a TOPS class. Classes that carried TOPS numbers 01(two locos), 02 (2 or 3 locos), 03, 05 (one loco), 06 (very few), 07, 08, 09 and 13. All the others were withdrawn before renumbering. If before September 1968 when the TOPS class system was introduced there were many more classes of shunters, most being withdrawn in 1967 and 1968.   

[D5541]

Thanks all for the further replies :-)

 

Clive, regarding periods, I've got nothing specific in mind for my shunter collection so they'll be an assortment really, just need to work out what carried which combination and pick a loco that fits...

 

the plan so far is

 

Class 01 - black, wasp stripes and TOPS number (01002)

Class 02 - was really hoping they got as far as blue with TOPS, but will settle for green with that

Class 03 - my one is green, but may end up repainted

Class 04 - BR blue, Dxxx number, when I've built it

Class 05 - I've got Departmental no. 88

Class 06 - going to be based on a picture I saw on the Web, 06006, BR Blue, wheel rims and centers painted white

Class 07 - BR blue, no D prefix 29xx

Class 08 - currently in IC livery, but will end up in IC swallow

Class 09 - not sure yet, have to research what they carried

Class 10 - plain black, early crest, 13xxx number

Class 11 & 12 - need to work out how to build them first, let alone paint them

Class 13 - BR Blue

 

And yes, I'm a fan of industrials and shunters anyways, having recently brought a copy of modern locomotives illustrated (small shunters edition) I have a steadily growing list of kits of various other classes I want to do eventually.

 

Currently have a Hunslet DY1 on the bench, once that's finished I'll start on my 04 :-)

[lapford34102]

 

Just a thought. Did this 08 model list which might be useful.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/95161-class-0809-models-list-4mm-update-120415/

 

Stu

[Andy Kirkham]

Here's my chance to post my one and only photo of an 02 - at Liverpool Exchange in 1972

APR 72 06. D2856 Liverpool Exchange 1972 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

Edited October 23, 2015 by Andy Kirkham

[br2975]

Here's my chance to post my one and only photo of an 02 - at Liverpool Exchange in 1972

APR 72 06. D2856 Liverpool Exchange 1972 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

Exactly the same position in which I snapped it, some two months later.

.

Just wish I could locate the negs or prints which included Southport and Birkenhead MPD as well.

.

Brian R

Edited October 23, 2015 by br2975

[Broadway Clive]

Class 11, different size wheels, lower running plate, different shaped cab, different engine room doors, different hand rail rails, different radiator fillers, different lights and some other minor details. More differences than between a Saint class 4-6-0 and a Grange class 4-6-0. The only class of over 100 diesel locomotives that has never been available in R-T-R or kit form.

 

Class 12, (SR version of class 11) Same sized wheels as a 08, but they were Bulleid-Firth-Brown design, like found on a Q1 or a Spam Can. Running plate same height as a 08, everything else is like a class 11.

 

Edit, forgot to say that the battery boxes were longer on class 11 and 12 and they did not have vacuum brake exhauster boxes, in fact they did not have any train brakes. There were also 6 WR built 350s that looked just like the class 11, never had a TOPS number. In later years these had another variation on the lights and conduit.

The class 11 was available for a while as a kit from Judith Edge. I contacted them a few months ago and there seems no intention to re-run it at the moment. I would very much like to see a RTR version as they were widespread on Midland, Eastern and North Eastern regions during the 50s/60s, often as the forerunners to the 08s which were being built later. I followed an earlier topic on the subject of converting an 08 to a class 11 and was surprised to discover how it is really not possible, so maybe it would be worth some of us forming a group to promote it as a wish list candidate in the future. For several years it wasn't even on the MREmag list, but with Clive Mortimores inspired observations on the class 12, there could be even more going for a RTR class 11 if only we got the word about so people understood how different and widespread they were.     

Edited October 23, 2015 by Broadway Clive

[br2975]

I would welcome a Class 11 model................ but it would end up as:-

.

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p57769627/h1A7B11B7#h1a7b11b7

.

or as:-

 

 

Edited October 23, 2015 by br2975

[Broadway Clive]

I would welcome a Class 11 model................ but it would end up as:-

.

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p57769627/h1A7B11B7#h1a7b11b7

.

 

Thanks, great stuff! I've just added a comment to Brian McDermott's 2015 wish list topic suggesting that the poll should combine class 11, 12 and 15101-7 as being based on the same 1944 UK standard design. It should be possible to make all varieties from the same basic tools.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Broadway Clive

[Clive Mortimore]

The class 11 was available for a while as a kit from Judith Edge. I contacted them a few months ago and there seems no intention to re-run it at the moment. I would very much like to see a RTR version as they were widespread on Midland, Eastern and North Eastern regions during the 50s/60s, often as the forerunners to the 08s which were being built later. I followed an earlier topic on the subject of converting an 08 to a class 11 and was surprised to discover how it is really not possible, so maybe it would be worth some of us forming a group to promote it as a wish list candidate in the future. For several years it wasn't even on the MREmag list, but with Clive Mortimores inspired observations on the class 12, there could be even more going for a RTR class 11 if only we got the word about so people understood how different and widespread they were.     

Hi Clive

 

I didn't know that Judith Edge done the class 11. Last time I spoke with Mike, we chatted about the LMS Jackshaft locos, I couldn't remember which version I have built so I came away with a Ruston-Hornsby 165hp kit instead of another Jackshaft loco.

[br2975]

Thanks, great stuff! I've just added a comment to Brian McDermott's 2015 wish list topic suggesting that the poll should combine class 11, 12 and 15101-7 as being based on the same 1944 UK standard design. It should be possible to make all varieties from the same basic tools.

I have a copy of Model Railways (remember, the successor to MRN ??) which contains scale drawings of the Class 11 and a photo of one of the 151xx shunters.

.

I have often looked at the double page spread and thought "if only" and "perhaps, one day".

.

Brian R

[JeffP]

D5541: How about one of my favourite classes, an ex WR PWM loco, built by Ruston.?  http://www.ukmodelshops.co.uk/judithedge/kit/141

 

They also do  Ruston 88DS, which worked at Reading Signal Works and was numbered 20 in BR days.  http://www.ukmodelshops.co.uk/judithedge/kit/390

Both Judith Edge kits, very good reputation.

 

Hint to Mr Edge: would still like these in 7mm.........

[47137]

Roco make an HO scale shunter, exported by EE to the Netherlands. This is not a class 11, but it is structurally the same - the differences are in details like lamps and the width of the front buffer beam. The model can be converted to a presentable class 11.

 

Not a blind bit of help to a 4mm modeller . . . but then again, if a 4mm scale class 11 project did get off the ground, there would be a prospect of forced perspective modelling using a small prototype in a small layout.

 

- Richard.

[D5541]

Hi Jeff

 

Both of those are on my to do list, I've just about mastered Dapol kits, n if I can motorise my 04 successfully I'll look at graduating to a complete brass kit :-)

 

Initial plan is get the whole set of class 01 - 13, but plenty of others in the wishlist as well, we will have to see what time and motivation brings :-)

 

Personally, as far as the non standard BR shunters go, the Brush 0-4-0 (D2999?) is top of my list, joint first with the center cab Fowlers

 

http://www.derbysulzers.com/ed6derby1960.jpg

 

Must be said of shunters,being designed for, hmmm, menial work?, rather than the mainline stuff, some of the designs do have so much character and appeal!

 

Br2975 - would you be able to email me a copy of the class 11 drawings if I asked nicely?

 

And to the others who've posted since my last reply, thanks muchly :-) loving the pictures and info