Umber is the New Black

[Edwardian]

Thanks, guys.  I would certainly like one of those LSWR railmotors

Edited February 20, 2016 by Edwardian

[BlueLightning]

This just popped up on my eBay feed. Thought of this thread straight away. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PHOTO-POSTCARD-LBSCR-RAIL-MOTOR-ST-LEONARDS-WEST-MARINA-RAILWAY-STATION-SUSSEX-/351659503379

 

When zoomed the image gives quite a bit of detail and it looks relatively easy to make one. Not sure who would pay that much for a postcard though.

 

Gary

[Nearholmer]

So, who was Lilian, and why the merest hint of assignation in NW's message?

 

Novel's have developed from less.

 

K

 

Edit: looking again, NW is the post code. Is it initialed ONH? Lilian's younger brother, maybe, or a male cousin? Surely a sister, aunt or mother, or even father, wouldn't choose a picture of a railcar for a Christmas greeting to a girl or woman? Clearly they both know where "Marina" is, so perhaps she is away, and he at home? The plot thickens.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

Another weird railcar alert.

 

In a parallel thread about petrol and diesel weirdities, IA this link http://www.editionsatlas.fr/collection/minisite/michelines-et-autorails/anf-vapeur-zz19.html to a French part-work that provides more HO railcars that any normal person could ever want. I particularly like this very sinister steam-punk one.

 

K

[corneliuslundie]

At  the time the LB&SCR bought the two steam rail motors in 1905 they also bought two petrol railcars (definitely not petrol electric), as has been mentioned above. Unfortunately, I have been told by Peter Wisdom of the Brighton Circle that they only lasted in revenue service until 1911 when they were transferred to the electrical department as maintenance vehicles for the newfangled overhead electric system. So a very small window of opportunity to run them on a layout, and you can't even transfer them to another finctional line after 1911.

 

By the way I hope anyone building a model of the steam railcars will use the correct material for the seats: oak framing with perforated three ply birch panelling. More information from the forthcoming book on LB&SCR liveries due out before the end of May from the HMRS. End of unashamed plug.

 

Jonathan

[burgundy]

At  the time the LB&SCR bought the two steam rail motors in 1905 they also bought two petrol railcars (definitely not petrol electric), as has been mentioned above. Unfortunately, I have been told by Peter Wisdom of the Brighton Circle that they only lasted in revenue service until 1911 when they were transferred to the electrical department as maintenance vehicles for the newfangled overhead electric system. So a very small window of opportunity to run them on a layout, and you can't even transfer them to another finctional line after 1911.

Jonathan

 

For more details about Peter Wisdom's construction of one of the petrol railcars, see the most recent issue of L.B.S.C.R. Modellers Digest.

Best wishes

Eric

[Nearholmer]

Highlighted in another thread, but worth repetition here:

 

http://player.bfi.org.uk/film/watch-southern-railway-1937/

 

No umber left by 1937, but there is an absolute stack of Brightonia in this film, and it is truly, truly fascinating. D1 on motor trains, both low-roof and balloon versions; terrier at work; 325 at Brighton; ancient ex-LNWR coach in the Sunny South Express ....... It goes on and on, all forty minutes of it!

 

Kevin

[Edwardian]

Thanks for that, Kevin, a video that certainly repays watching.

 

I did rather tune out with all those electrics, but soon we were with motor trains.  The D1s (in black and white), looked pretty dirty, but the colour shots seemed to show some fairly clean locomotives.  Apart from the electrics, the odd locomotive like the S15, and some new infrastructure, not much by way of modernity was evident.  The Southern seemed to be run entirely by Victorian tank engines and fin de siècle 4-4-0s.

 

The LMS stock on the Sunny South in colour was quite a special moment, and good shots of E4, C2 and C2X.  There was even, I thought, a glimpse of a rather shiny GW horsebox.  The perishables train was a particular joy.

 

Great video!

[Nearholmer]

"..... I did rather tune out with all those electrics....."

 

They are like abstract art, or very abstruse literature: of no interest until you have received a proper introduction to them, after which they become utterly fascinating.

 

Kevin

 

PS: actually, I still don't get art or literature, but I do get EMUs.

[Edwardian]

Steam, and only steam, is really alive!

 

With electricity, well, the best you can do is...

[phil-b259]

Thanks for that, Kevin, a video that certainly repays watching.

 

I did rather tune out with all those electrics, but soon we were with motor trains.  The D1s (in black and white), looked pretty dirty, but the colour shots seemed to show some fairly clean locomotives.  Apart from the electrics, the odd locomotive like the S15, and some new infrastructure, not much by way of modernity was evident.  The Southern seemed to be run entirely by Victorian tank engines and fin de siècle 4-4-0s.

 

 

Erm.... The Southern kept those 'Victorian tank engines and fin de siècle 4-4-0s' going precisely because they were prioritising investment into their sucessfull electrification programme rather than building steam locos as like for like replacements of said Victorian designs.

 

As with today railways are not the playthings of enthusiasts and decisions over investment must be made on what works for the business and day to day users - electrification and multiple units being a prime example.

 

Agree about the video though.

[Edwardian]

Erm.... The Southern kept those 'Victorian tank engines and fin de siècle 4-4-0s' going precisely because they were prioritising investment into their sucessfull electrification programme rather than building steam locos as like for like replacements of said Victorian designs.

 

As with today railways are not the playthings of enthusiasts and decisions over investment must be made on what works for the business and day to day users - electrification and multiple units being a prime example.

 

Agree about the video though.

 

In other words, it stayed more interesting for longer because they wanted to make it boring, and then, eventually, they did.  Thanks for the explanation. 

[Poggy1165]

By contrast, the LNER kept its working museum of pre-group locos going because it didn't have the money for any alternative. Indeed, it's a good job they got all those nice ROD 2-8-0s dirt cheap.

[LBSCE2]

So, in the caravan yesterday, I was sitting up in bed, doing the washing up, and not really able to think about much other than the suffering inflicted in Paris. We are brothers and sisters and if you hurt one of us, you hurt us all; today we are all Parisians.

 

Now it is time to return to Merstham, via Hassocks. Yesterday, here, in the land of the Prince Bishops, I picked up an album of pre-grouping pictures. Among them was Kevin's shot of an E2 on the Sand Pit line. The picture is dated 1921 and the comment is made that E2s were Londoners, not often seen in the Brighton area. Interestingly, the editor added a personal reminiscence: "I recall my amazement when in 1917 I observed a tank engine of the E4 class in a field apparently under Downs, and later discovered this sandpit branch"

 

A few posts back, when lauding Merstham as basis for a model railway, I commented upon the variety in coaching stock livery and questioned whether the Sunny South service would have utilised LNWR stock. Well, thanks to the volume picked up yesterday, I have my answer: "yes"!

 

Below is a picture of a B1 Gladstone at Addison Road in 1914 with this service, comprising modern corridor LNWR stock. Spot on.

 

Finally, although another 1921 shot, I was gratified by the sight of a brace of B4s crossing at Merstham; very much the sort of thing I'd like to recreate.

So is the picture of that E2 original? Edited March 31, 2016 by LBSCE2

[Nearholmer]

You mean the picture taken on the Hassocks sand branch?

 

Yes, it's a genuine photo, reproduced in a couple of books, and on the "Sussex Motive Power Depots" website.

 

Edwardian's post that you reproduce might be read to imply that I own the rights to the picture: I don't, and I don't know who does.

 

I take it from your name that you are interested in E2s .....

 

Kevin

[LBSCE2]

You mean the picture taken on the Hassocks sand branch?

 

Yes, it's a genuine photo, reproduced in a couple of books, and on the "Sussex Motive Power Depots" website.

 

Edwardian's post that you reproduce might be read to imply that I own the rights to the picture: I don't, and I don't know who does.

 

I take it from your name that you are interested in E2s .....

 

Kevin

Thank you. That picture looks so good that it looks like a model to me. I live in the US so I know little about British locomotives, but that coupling chains threw me off.

[Edwardian]

LBSCE2, thank you for visiting.  I will tell you what little I know.

 

The photograph was unearthed by Kevin as it was of the sandpit line from Hassocks station, a location in which I was showing an interest.  I subsequently purchased a volume entitled 1850-1925 Vintage Album, by J E Kite.  I was delighted to find Kevin's shot among the many wonderful photographs therein and I quoted some of the caption. 

 

The photograph is credited to George Hector and stated to be taken in 1921.

 

Mr Kite makes the observation that "The E2s were not often seen in the Brighton area, they are real Londoners", however, from the introduction of the first batch in 1913, one at least was destined to be shedded at Brighton at any given time.

 

Initially this was No. 102, and I rely upon the RCTS Locomotives of the LB&SCR volume 3 for this further information.  No.102 "was employed almost exclusively on the 6.35am goods to Hassocks, where empty wagons were dropped for the Company's sand siding and loaded ones picked up before proceeding to Hove to shunt the yards".

 

The photograph is of No.109, the last locomotive of the class and one of those featuring extended tanks.  This final batch had been ordered in March 1914, but the War delayed matters and No.109 was not completed until October 1916.

 

I imagine that she would have been painted black.

 

On entering service she, too, was allocated to Brighton. Her regular duty, 1916-1919, seems to have been to have "taken the 3.10am Brighton-Hassocks goods and then worked to Angmering with stops to set down and pick up wagons at Portslade, Shoreham, Worthing, West Worthing and Goring".

 

In February 1919, No.102 was transferred to Battersea, at which point No.109 took over the 6.35am Brighton-Hassocks goods and the duties on the sand-pit line, in which we see her engaged in 1921.

 

Whether No.109 received umber in 1922-3, I do not know, but she is most likely in black at the date of the photograph.  

Edited April 2, 2016 by Edwardian

[Nearholmer]

Those words imply that the Hassocks sand pits belonged to LBSCR, which I had never cottoned-on to, but which would explain the quality of the infrastructure on a little "industrial" spur.

 

I originally thought it was horse-worked, and assumed that the track would be typical contractors stuff, made of Vignoles rail, spiked to "raw" timbers, until I saw this photo.

 

A scene on the tramway would make a cracking micro-layout.

 

K

[Edwardian]

Those words imply that the Hassocks sand pits belonged to LBSCR, which I had never cottoned-on to, but which would explain the quality of the infrastructure on a little "industrial" spur.

 

A scene on the tramway would make a cracking micro-layout.

 

K

 

Agreed.

 

Kevin, I too took the wording to mean this was a LBSC facility; perhaps where the sand for locomotive sand boxes and station fire buckets came from.

 

And, yes, a cracking micro-layout!

[Northroader]

Weren't fire buckets a pre-WW2 ARP precaution? Just leaves loco sand, did Brighton locos slip that much that it warranted their own sand pit and branch?

[Nearholmer]

Locos can get through a surprising amount of sand. I first learned about this by 'feeding' a sand-drier at the Festiniog, where sand had to be barrowed up from the beach, and was later amazed by the vast amounts used by locos on peat-bog railways in Ireland.

 

I suppose the LBSCR also needed aggregate for concrete, and might have sold sand as a "soil amendment" (to use my Grandfathers's term), because there was a ready market for it, and lime, in the Weald, to "break up" the famously sticky clay.

 

K

[Edwardian]

Weren't fire buckets a pre-WW2 ARP precaution? Just leaves loco sand, did Brighton locos slip that much that it warranted their own sand pit and branch?

 

I don't know, but I feel I should be told before I put them all over my model railways!

[ChrisN]

I don't know, but I feel I should be told before I put them all over my model railways!

 

It is a good question and one I need answering as well, perhaps I will put it on my thread and see what comes up.

[Edwardian]

It is a good question and one I need answering as well, perhaps I will put it on my thread and see what comes up.

 

Good plan.  My childhood (nominally) mid-thirties Great Western layout (see, I only model pre-grouping companies) had the obligatory rack of red fire buckets on the end wall of the station building, if only because most layouts did!

 

But when did this start, either by law or custom?

[Nearholmer]

The Bluebell clearing believes that the LBSCR used them https://www.flickr.com/photos/96083985@N00/11463492506/

 

With the odd cinder from the ash-pash or chimney, and lots of sleepers oozing creosote in hot weather, I'd be surprised if they aren't quite an old idea, but it would be interesting to know for certain.

 

K

 

Photos from a quick Google, the NER one is in the national collection, no less, and the station photo dates from 1910 (buckets on fence, lower left).

Edited April 2, 2016 by Nearholmer