Point Motors for beginners

[SirStanierFan6229]

I'm just starting out in model railways, and need some simple advice about point motors - are the necessary on a small (8ft by 4ft) layout? How are the powered? How are they installed? Is there anything specific I need to know about wiring them? And which ones are recommended?

 

In addition, I have heard of sprung point mechanisms, that don't need wiring, but can't find any for sale... are they recommended, and would need to make my own?

 

If it would help to see my planned layout, I'm attaching it below.

 

Thanks.

[Mike Storey]

No, they are not necessary! The "sprung" mechanisms you have in mind are all the main ready-to-lay track systems, such as Peco, Hornby and Bachmann. They have a centre spring in each point, which holds the point blades tight against the stock rail, in the direction in which you have set it (by hand or by motor). (Unsprung points are restricted to the finer scale point makers, such as C&L, Marcway and Tillig, so avoid them for now, unless you want to leap in to the deep end). Fingers are all the motor you need for a simple layout where you can reach every point easily. The problems may start to come with electrical continuity, where you rely on contact between the blade and the stock rails, to continue the power onto the siding or section of track beyond the point. This has little to do with motors and more to do with wiring up your layout to prevent most of this.

 

You only start to need motors when you want to avoid the "big hand in the sky" appearing across your layout, which you might also need for coupling and uncoupling anyway, for which other motor gadgets are also available.

 

Keep it simple to start with, so you don't get frustrated by all the technical possibilities, which can be added over time. For simplicity, choose "dead frog" points to start with, but these can present problems with short locos (shunters or small steam locos) stalling on the points. If this becomes a big issue, there are solutions! But each solution comes with extra complexity.

 

If you are new to the hobby, I strongly suggest you make your way to your nearest model railway shop (not a toy shop) who will be only too pleased to explain to you all the possibilities. If you are not near such a shop, try going to an exhibition (many are listed on this forum) or going to a club (also listed on this forum), where you will find people only too eager to help. If you could tell us the area in which you live, we could point you to a few of these. It would also help if you could tell us whether you are starting in DC or DCC control. if you don't know what these mean, then a visit to a person, group or shop is even more highly recommended.

 

You can always get plenty of help on here, but there is nothing like talking to a human bean, face to face, who can show you what's what in the flesh.

[Paul W]

Hi and welcome to our hobby & to RMweb.

 

If you can reach all your points and operate them manually then you don't need to fit point motors. 

 

As Mike says above, the best way to get the information that suits you is to go to a model shop and ask them, but they normally have a vested interest and will sell you what they may make the most money on, not saying they all do this but in my experience I know some will.

 

Ideally a visit to a railway exhibition is a good source of information, but this can also be biased towards what the operators use and may not be too relevant to what you want so speak to as many as you can.

 

To answer more of your question there are basically 2 types of point motors for the beginner to consider.

 

Surface mounted types by Peco (PL-11) or Hornby (R8243).

Under base board mounted solenoid types by Peco (PL-10), Hornby (R8014) & Seep (PM2).

 

All types will need to be wired from a transformer via a switch, various types available, and a CDU (Capacitor Discharge Unit). The CDU will protect the point motors from burning out if a switch gets stuck in the closed position and also packs a better punch of power when operating more than one point motor at a time, as in you 2 crossovers on your plan.

 

The basic types of solenoid point motor consists of a PCB (Printed Circuit Board with terminals to solder the wires to) which has attached to it 2 coils of wire. When one of these coils of wire are energised by the operating of the chosen switch, the centre spring which is fitted to the point motor and through the hole in the centre of the locking spring case of the point moves accordingly. The point remains in this position until the opposite coil is energised and the process is repeated.

 

The major advantage of surface mounted point motors is that they are much easier to fit, although they still need to be electrically fed & switched. The under base board mounted types can be very frustrating as there is little tolerance for error in locating them if you want successfully operating point motors. Also you do not need to consider where your base board cross members go when using surface mounted point motors, but you do need to consider this if using the under board mounted type. Careful planning is needed here.

 

A disadvantage of the surface mounted type is the fact that you can see them. Maybe this isn't too much of a consideration at this early stage for you.

 

A trip to www.Brian-lambert.co.uk  may be useful, plenty of information if you have got time to read it.

 

This is very basic but I hope it helps a little.

 

Paul

[DCB]

It depends on whether you can get all round the layout, a reach of 30" is about the comfortable maximum I find. A spring point is one which trains push open and it springs back afterwards, widely used in Scotland North of Inverness and on the West Highland.  I have used a 00 gauge spring point on an outside line return loop but it is quite a weird device.  I have used point blade switching very successfully for 50 odd years but I don't use DCC. 

[BR60103]

Given the size of your layout, I think that you may want to power the crossovers at the top of the plan, and use finger power on the sidings at the front. I also feel that crossovers should be controlled as a single unit, as both points have to move together.

Unless you are using a single controller and one loco, you will need a bit of extra wiring for the crossovers. This can be done using extra contacts on the point motors.

There are also hand operated point motors using various plastic tube or wire-in-tube controls. (one is called Bluepoint.)

[Suzie]

You have not shown a central operating well which would suggest that at least some of the points will be out of reach of the operating position so remote control would be a good idea.

 

Mechanical systems involving cord and string from levers can be tricky to set up and requires periodic adjustment so think about an electrical solution at least for the far points. I would use servos but if you are looking for something simpler tortoise style slow motion motors are the simplest to install and use.

[Pete the Elaner]

I seem to be in a minority but I've tried tortoise point motors & didn't like them.

Firstly, they are huge. You need about 3" of clearance beneathe the baseboard (far deeper than most support frames need to be) & the pin supplied is fine until you weather the track, tthen they struggke to throw the point, even at maximum adjustment.

 

Since you are new to the hobby, keping it simple is very important. Get trains running as soon as possible or else you will get bored. For this reason, I agree with the view that you should only use point motors for out of reach points.

 

A CDU was mentioned earlier. A friend & I fitted Seep motors to his layout. We tried throwing some to test & they struggled to move at all until we added the CDU. They have been faultless since.

[SirStanierFan6229]

Thanks very much!

I have considered and planned most of my layout already (Era, location, features, and even isolating parts of my sidings), and had decided to run it as a DC layout - at least for the time being - as I have two younger siblings who also want to buy some locomotives to run, and don't have as much of an income as I do!

I had considered only using motors on the far points, which are out of easy reach, as the baseboard is inaccessible from three sides, but was unsure - thank you for all your advice, which I'm sure will prompt further research, and conversations with a few experienced modelers I have met, but perhaps I'll upload some pictures when everything is up and running (my deadline is early January).

[Brian]

I would just point out that post 3 URL is incorrect.  It is www.brian-lambert.co.uk    My Electrical page 1 deals with most of the basic point motor wiring.  

[Paul W]

   Whoops, sorry Brian..have corrected post 3... 

[Mike Storey]

Thanks very much!

I have considered and planned most of my layout already (Era, location, features, and even isolating parts of my sidings), and had decided to run it as a DC layout - at least for the time being - as I have two younger siblings who also want to buy some locomotives to run, and don't have as much of an income as I do!

I had considered only using motors on the far points, which are out of easy reach, as the baseboard is inaccessible from three sides, but was unsure - thank you for all your advice, which I'm sure will prompt further research, and conversations with a few experienced modelers I have met, but perhaps I'll upload some pictures when everything is up and running (my deadline is early January).

 

You haven't said which will be the far side of the layout? Just remember that, as well as operating points, you will also need to uncouple locos and wagons, which presumably you will want to do by hand. Bear that in mind when deciding which way round to build it!

 

Also, unless you are going to run trains in one direction only, you are going to end up with locos stuck at the ends of the sidings. Have you thought about how you are going to operate the layout?

[SirStanierFan6229]

You haven't said which will be the far side of the layout? Just remember that, as well as operating points, you will also need to uncouple locos and wagons, which presumably you will want to do by hand. Bear that in mind when deciding which way round to build it!

 

Also, unless you are going to run trains in one direction only, you are going to end up with locos stuck at the ends of the sidings. Have you thought about how you are going to operate the layout?

The Far side is the top of the diagram, with the point crossover, while the bottom side is open. It will be operated using 2 standard Hornby DC R965 controllers, one for the inside loop and freight sidings, the other for the external loop and engine shed. Although this means that I can only operate two trains at a time, I'm a beginner, keeping it simple. Power will be supplied through Hornby R8206 power track at the left end of the top straight, cleverly disguised by a wooden, laser cut road bridge kit. This means that, when the points are changed correctly the right end of the inner loop becomes electrically isolated, allowing me to shunt trucks between the two inner sidings (having three would be ideal, but impractical and unrealistic due to space). Re-railing shouldn't be too much of a problem, considering the fact that I have long arms, while most uncoupling will take place at the front of the layout (doing at the rear is not, however, impossible).

[Reorte]

Thanks very much!

I have considered and planned most of my layout already (Era, location, features, and even isolating parts of my sidings), and had decided to run it as a DC layout - at least for the time being - as I have two younger siblings who also want to buy some locomotives to run, and don't have as much of an income as I do!

This can be a bit of a contentious issue but DCC will certainly make the layout easier to wire, and basic DCC decoders aren't that expensive (although I'm not sure how common it is for locos to be sold with sockets, and without is obviously fiddlier). I'd certainly consider it before completely rejecting the ideal. Apologies if you've already done just that.

 

For the points consider wire-in-tube (I think someone has mentioned it already). Unlike string-based arrangements it should be possible to set that up so that it doesn't need adjusting, particularly if you're relying on the springs to hold the point blades in place.

 

It really depends what you want - simple to build, or does the idea of a control board looking like something from the Apollo programme appeal? Starting off simple obviously has the advantage of being less frustrating to get going, and can be made more complex with time if you want to.

[Pete the Elaner]

It will be operated using 2 standard Hornby DC R965 controllers, one for the inside loop and freight sidings, the other for the external loop and engine shed. Although this means that I can only operate two trains at a time, I'm a beginner, keeping it simple.

 

By all means wire it like this to get yourself going but it is not the best way to go about it so keep the following in mind:

As you mention, 2 controllers means 2 sections & to drive a train between 2 sections requires setting both controllers identically.

A better method is to wire the layout in sections then choose the controller from each section. If you use multi-way switches then you can add more controllers when required. If a controller fails then you simply choose another for that track circuit & when driving a trains from one circuit to another, you simply choose that controller for both circuits.

 

Alternatively, you could consider Reorte's suggestion of DCC. Basic wiring is more simple so you could get up & running more quickly. Driving trains is a different experience too.

[Suzie]

Here is my take on how it should be wired using stall motors for the points.

 

 

The isolating track is always turned off so does not need wiring but the controllers must have their own seperate power supplies.

 

If using tortoise motors for the points you do not need a big power supply and you can use the DC auxilliary output from a controller if it has one. Not sure what you have on modern DC controllers.

[Mike Storey]

Here is my take on how it should be wired using stall motors for the points.

 

Loops feed and tortoise.jpg

 

The isolating track is always turned off so does not need wiring but the controllers must have their own seperate power supplies.

 

If using tortoise motors for the points you do not need a big power supply and you can use the DC auxilliary output from a controller if it has one. Not sure what you have on modern DC controllers.

 

Am I right in thinking that means only the right hand controller can be used for movements between the loops over those crossovers, and that the points must be isolating?

[Suzie]

As an aside there is no reason why you cannot move the crossovers to the front, and there is still room to add a couple of headshunts to make it work better operationally, especially if you add some isolating sections at the end of the headshunts to store the shunting locos.

 

 

 

 

[Suzie]

Am I right in thinking that means only the right hand controller can be used for movements between the loops over those crossovers, and that the points must be isolating?

 

Yes, correct on all counts. It is DC and from the diagram I am assuming that DC settrack is to be used.

 

Cab control would increase flexibility but I suspect it would overcomplicate an otherwise simple layout that does not really need it for effective operation.

[Jeff Smith]

The headshunts are a great addition. The sidings on the right should perhaps be for coaches, made longer by moving the point down nearer the headshunt. A third could be added for loco storage. Also the crossover is too short to also be used as a run-round loop but you could cheat and run the loco right around the layout to get to the other end of the train.......

 

Blue Point manual under board point switches are pretty good if you want remote operation by push/pull rod. They have built-in switches for polarity changing should you decide on electro-frog points. Here is one next to a Tortoise stall-type slow motion motor.

 

[Mike Storey]

As an aside there is no reason why you cannot move the crossovers to the front, and there is still room to add a couple of headshunts to make it work better operationally, especially if you add some isolating sections at the end of the headshunts to store the shunting locos.

 

Loops 2.jpg

 

I think that is a great improvement operationally (I think you have missed a couple of feeds though), but I would hesitate to lay strings of points close together when using dead frogs. Presumably small wheelbase locos are going to be used? (0-6-0, or 0-4-0) which might make stalling a major problem and thus a very disappointing experience for his children. Fine for live frog or DCC using stay-alive chips, but he wants to keep it simple. 

[Suzie]

I think that is a great improvement operationally (I think you have missed a couple of feeds though), but I would hesitate to lay strings of points close together when using dead frogs. Presumably small wheelbase locos are going to be used? (0-6-0, or 0-4-0) which might make stalling a major problem and thus a very disappointing experience for his children. Fine for live frog or DCC using stay-alive chips, but he wants to keep it simple. 

Analogue is a huge compromise between performance and simplicity. If you keep it simple you have to expect there will be operational and performance compromises. You and I would do it live frog and DCC because we would not accept the performance hit of not doing that, but I think that is outside the scope of this thread.

[SirStanierFan6229]

As an aside there is no reason why you cannot move the crossovers to the front, and there is still room to add a couple of headshunts to make it work better operationally, especially if you add some isolating sections at the end of the headshunts to store the shunting locos.

 

Loops 2.jpg

 

 

By all means wire it like this to get yourself going but it is not the best way to go about it so keep the following in mind:

As you mention, 2 controllers means 2 sections & to drive a train between 2 sections requires setting both controllers identically.

A better method is to wire the layout in sections then choose the controller from each section. If you use multi-way switches then you can add more controllers when required. If a controller fails then you simply choose another for that track circuit & when driving a trains from one circuit to another, you simply choose that controller for both circuits.

 

Alternatively, you could consider Reorte's suggestion of DCC. Basic wiring is more simple so you could get up & running more quickly. Driving trains is a different experience too.

 

 

The headshunts are a great addition. The sidings on the right should perhaps be for coaches, made longer by moving the point down nearer the headshunt. A third could be added for loco storage. Also the crossover is too short to also be used as a run-round loop but you could cheat and run the loco right around the layout to get to the other end of the train.......

 

Blue Point manual under board point switches are pretty good if you want remote operation by push/pull rod. They have built-in switches for polarity changing should you decide on electro-frog points. Here is one next to a Tortoise stall-type slow motion motor.

 

post-7723-0-84962200-1419263887.jpg

 

 

I think that is a great improvement operationally (I think you have missed a couple of feeds though), but I would hesitate to lay strings of points close together when using dead frogs. Presumably small wheelbase locos are going to be used? (0-6-0, or 0-4-0) which might make stalling a major problem and thus a very disappointing experience for his children. Fine for live frog or DCC using stay-alive chips, but he wants to keep it simple. 

Thank you all for your advice - looks like I have some serious rethinking to do!

[SirStanierFan6229]

I think that is a great improvement operationally (I think you have missed a couple of feeds though), but I would hesitate to lay strings of points close together when using dead frogs. Presumably small wheelbase locos are going to be used? (0-6-0, or 0-4-0) which might make stalling a major problem and thus a very disappointing experience for his children. Fine for live frog or DCC using stay-alive chips, but he wants to keep it simple. 

 

This was my worry with moving the crossovers: There would be no less than three sets of 'dead frog' points per track, which could compromise the running of some of the small 0-4-0s, even though the main loops will generally have 4-6-0s or bigger running over them, and perhaps make point operation a little confusing at times. Nevertheless, I agree that if I were running DCC or using better track (which, alas, will not be the case) I would consider the revised plan more carefully. Also, just thought I'd point out, I don't have any children yet (and won't be considering having any for a good ten years or more!) - it was my younger siblings who I mentioned!

[Jeff Smith]

Unfortunately ready to run 0-4-0s and 0-6-0s are not very happy running over insulfrog points. It doesn't really matter whether you have one or many in a row, it's when one wheel is actually on the insulated frog that the problem occurs because it removes a half or a third of the pick-up capability. Although they are longer I would urge you to consider using Streamline small radius Electrofrog points in place of the Setrack. You may have to compromise on the number of points you can fit in but they will work much better.....you will however have to follow the instructions about where to use insulated rail joiners and install some additional track feeds - but it's not rocket science so quite easy to do.

[ejstubbs]

Although they are longer I would urge you to consider using Streamline small radius Electrofrog points in place of the Setrack.

 

If you want to continue to use Setrack for the rest of the layout then you can do so, rather than taking the next step and laying it all with flexi.  However, in order to maintain the correct track centres for the Setrack curves you need to insert a short length of straight track between the points in the crossovers.  Happily, a Setrack ST202 short straight between the points should give you 68mm track centres, which is only 1mm off the 67mm track centres required for the Setrack curves.

 

You may have to adjust the lengths of some of the Setrack straight track sections in order to get the layout to with the Streamline points but that should be fairly straightforward.  From my calculation, the two crossovers done with Streamline short radius points and with the ST202s inserted to give the Setrack track centres is only about 2" longer then the same arrangement done with Setrack points.  It looks as though you have enough room to extend you track by that much on the right hand side of your baseboard.

 

I've knocked up a rough example of how I think it might work on AnyRail.:

 

 

The straights circled in red are the ones which would need to be trimmed to length to compensate for the Streamline points being slightly longer than the Setrack points (184mm vs 168mm).

 

The Streamline points should be code 100 (SL-E91E, SL-E92 and SL-E97 for the Electrofrog versions) in order to match the Setrack rail profile.