RMW "Layout & Track Design" - all change............

[MikeOxon]

Don't worry about being pedantic on this cos I'm doing something stupid.

 

I think it must be preparation and the new bits I have bought for my iron so I will revert to the old one and I have just bought a VERY small wire brush from the local craft shop so I will have another go today.

 

J

If you are using lead-free solder, then you can expect problems both with your iron tips and with poor wetting of the rails.  I changed to traditional lead-tin solder and everything suddenly got a lot easier.  To quote from my blog:

 

"I have had another important revelation recently. Having spent a career soldering electronic circuits, I couldn't understand why I was having so much trouble with soldering brass models. Then the penny dropped - 'lead-free solder' I've bought a large reel of 60:40 and things are back to normal! Now, my bit stays bright, wets easily, and makes joints in seconds. So long as babies do not chew my model engines, I should be ok."

 

Although you can use cored solder, I find it better to apply separate flux when soldering larger items, though you should be OK with rails. 

 

As Kevin said, it should only take seconds to make each joint, if your iron is hot enough and the tip is properly 'wetted'.  Also, don't use too small a bit - I use an 1/8" (3mm) chisel-end bit for jobs like this.

 

Mike

Edited December 30, 2015 by MikeOxon

[Nearholmer]

One thing I forgot to mention was "keeping your bit tinned".........

 

Make sure that the bit is clean, and tinned with nice bright, clean solder.

 

The suede brush is useful for this, or you can buy a little tin of bit-cleaner (mine is about a million years old, and filthy, and the lid disappeared ages ago, so I can't tell you what it's called!), and a bit of damp sponge is useful too.

 

Multi core solder often has resin flux in it, which burns-off to leave black deposits on the bit - they are trouble all over and need to be cleaned-off.

 

So, let the iron heat-up, wet it with solder, then a swift rub with the suede brush, tiny bit more solder, swift wipe on the damp sponge, and you should be ready for action.

 

And, I'm very much with Mike on not using a too small bit, or a weedy little iron for that matter. You want plenty of heat, fast, before the heat spreads out and starts melting rail fastenings, which is exactly what c an happen with a too small iron. I use a little kitchen blow lamp,rather than an electric iron, when soldering to huge (Code 300+) LGB rail for that very reason. SWMBO thinks I bought it for doing creme brûlée, but that was only the cover story!

 

Kevin

[halsey]

Back to the old soldering iron tip , cut off about 1ft off the old solder reel, better preparation ("tonic studios craft scratcher") and "Bobs your mothers brother" - all OK today!

 

Thanks

[Nearholmer]

Wow, that "craft scratcher" is a fancy bit of kit!

 

Here is a £1 suede brush:

 

http://www.wynsors.com/bags-accessories/accessories/shoe-care/punch-wire-brush-26893?gclid=CN7wvMfDg8oCFSfnwgodDQwIsw

 

I think that the bristles on suede brushes are brass, rather than steel, and I was taught to keep steel out of soldering, because it produces all sorts of dirty corrosion products when attacked by fluxes.

 

K

[MikeOxon]

................. I use a little kitchen blow lamp,rather than an electric iron, when soldering to huge (Code 300+) LGB rail for that very reason. SWMBO thinks I bought it for doing creme brûlée, but that was only the cover story!

 

Kevin

Yes, it's a good cover story, isn't it   The little blow torch is great for long seams on brass models.

[halsey]

In my defence it was the only thing I could buy locally today to keep me going yes it was £4.99 but its very good and very strong. However I think the real issue was my soldering iron tip - replacing tried and tested for new isn't always best!

[halsey]

FINALLY a loco has travelled around the room with no ill effects!!!

 

Huge thanks to all who have guided me thus far - the electrics were a challenge (for me) but I have come out the other side unscathed!

 

Massive learning curve but great fun - I know for you guys its second nature but this really was the bit I was dreading.

 

Photos posted show.........................

 

The start of laying out the goods yard (loop located)

 

The wiring/control centre - note future provision for branch point motors as this section can't be easily reached by the "thumb of god" which is the method I'm going to use for the remainder - so I get off my stool!

 

Also the start of my fold down "workbench" which needs some further work to achieve more strength.

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Excellent!

 

Somehow, that goods-yard loop looks longer and more generous in reality than it did on the plans.

 

You are going to put a lot of pontificators so to shame with this.

 

Kevin

[MikeOxon]

Whoo-hoo - lights, camera, action!!!  We're greedy, though, where's the video?

 

Despite your protestations of not knowing much about electrics, that wiring looks pretty neat to me.  I would recomment that you colour-code the indivudal wires to help with the inevitable trouble-shooting.  A twist of coloured PVC tape around corresponding ends will do the job.

 

If you want to see wiring as a work of art, try http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/220/entry-2304-playing-with-control-panels-part-ii/

 

Mike

Edited January 10, 2016 by MikeOxon

[halsey]

Hi Mike,

 

I intend to refine this but the (speaker) wire is coded black (stripe) and white matching to the black and red on the track and connected more locally with terminal blocks and all wires are labelled and all switch terminals are marked up inside the box.

 

I have in fact now tried all the permutations of my first attempt and, to date at least, only discovered one problem and that was at the controller end in that I needed to reverse the track feeds so the switched forward/reverse matched up.

 

More to come as the goods sidings develop but the basic schematic has worked and the 5 sections work well so far.

 

Next plan part of the plan is to review the bridge to see if I can make it hinged (coping with the gradient section is the issue) as the lift off although it works really well is a right pain and getting under it with my hip issues isn't a practical option.

 

This is the only real issue with this first attempt and not a disaster if I can't better it I'll live with it.

 

Next I want to play trains and understand more.

 

 

J

Edited January 13, 2016 by halsey

[halsey]

Hi Kevin,

 

My thoughts as well re the loop - there is plenty of room.

 

You will note I filtered the numerous, very welcome, posts and waited to demonstrate the results, if successful, as actions/results speak louder than words - it isn't perfect but hopefully it has got a lot into a "small" space whilst resisting becoming a train set and has provided enjoyment for others as well as me on the journey so far ................with more to come.

 

J

Edited January 13, 2016 by halsey

[halsey]

Video(s) as promised are too big to load - unless in my ignorance I'm doing something wrong??

 

AND a question....................... re insulfrog points - do they need "fettling" as some of my stock seems to bounce over them rather than glide through - the electrics don't as yet seem to be an issue but smoothness of travel is, or is it the way I've laid them - 2mm cork on 12mm ply very few baseboard joints and 10mm pins not overly hammered home?

 

Thanks all

 

J

Edited January 13, 2016 by halsey

[MikeOxon]

Video(s) as promised are too big to load - unless in my ignorance I'm doing something wrong??

 

AND a question....................... re insulfrog points - do they need "fettling" as some of my stock seems to bounce over them rather than glide through - the electrics don't as yet seem to be an issue but smoothness of travel is, or is it the way I've laid them - 2mm cork on 12mm ply very few baseboard joints and 10mm pins not overly hammered home?

 

Thanks all

 

J

My comment about video was meant rather 'tongue in cheek' - it's just good to know that things are running now!  I think the usual route is to put videos on youtube (or similar) and then post a link here.

 

I should look at the wheels on your stock first.  If they are old, with the giant flanges that were fitted back in the 50s/60s, they probably won't run smoothly through modern points.  You can also check the 'back to back' measurement (between the insides of the wheels), which should be 14.4mm (according to my book), although finer wheels may be up to about 14.8mm.  Acceptable wheelsets are readily available from Bachmann or Hornby, etc. and are quite cheap.

 

Mike

[halsey]

Re Video - my efforts are not worthy of YouTube !.....................

 

Re wheels ............... although my stock is not new most of it is "modern/as new" predominantly E bay sourced Hornby with some Mainline - some wagons are only a couple of years old - ironically its the better quality/newer stuff which bounces more possibly because its lighter? - I will check your measurements next and report back - thanks.

 

I didn't know changing wheels was normal I guess here we go on another steep learning curve - wheels, couplings - uncoupling methods - point motors etc etc etc....................!

 

All good fun.

 

Thanks

[ejstubbs]

Mainline stock may be sold on eBay as "as new" but it's not really "new" - the brand shut down in the early 1980s so anything you buy now will have been made to the standards of 30+ years ago. Not bad per se, but could possibly benefit from a bit of fettling to run well with more modern stock and track.

[halsey]

Only got 6 or so mainline but I will check if its those which are giving trouble - I think I now know what to look for.

 

Thanks all once again.

[halsey]

All's going well with phase 1 electrics almost complete and 7 points motorised on the branch station BUT I've got disappointing non-electric smooth running issues - is it insulfrog (which I'm using) v electrofrog build detail or is it wheels??

 

I have a real mixture of stock (30 odd wagons and carriages - all ebay) but the running quality is pretty poor over points/turnouts with wheels lifting occasionally derailing even locos but only to a very limited degree

 

Where do I need to focus - fettling frogs ( one of which I decided to play and it seems to help) or universally changing wheels or starting again?

 

I look forward to learning more - the cheaper the solution the better please!

 

Thanks all

[Nearholmer]

Halsey

 

If you do have a wheel/points incompatibility problem, and it sounds as if you do, you will find it a lot less trouble to change wheels to match points.

 

Attempting to "fettle" commercially made points usually leads to disappointment and expense.

 

To be clear, you are using Peco Code 100 insulfrog?

 

Kevin

[halsey]

Hi

 

Thanks for that - that was what I was thinking hoping.

 

YES code 100 insulfrog.

 

Can I have a lot more help/direction as to what's involved with wheel changes - what do I buy?

 

Simplistically is it a case of bulk buying 60 axles and fitting them?

[Nearholmer]

Halsey

 

I would check your locos through the points, one at a time, as a first step. The idea being to weed-out any "stutterers".

 

Do make sure that the loco wheels, pick-ups, and track are clean first, though.

 

Then, I would take wagons, one at a time, and push those through, just very gently pushing with one finger on the coupler - this should allow you to sort the wagons into "good" and "suspect".

 

The "suspect" ones are clearly those to focus on. It might be a case of changing wheel-sets (others will know better than I which wheels it is best to buy), but they might have other minor faults ......... If they were cheap purchases, the previous owners might have had trouble with them and have been "dumping".

 

See how that goes.

 

Kevin

[halsey]

Will do - the Locos aren't the issue - its mainly the 3 carriages (which I might sell on) and some wagons.

 

How do I avoid these pitfalls in future - is there a manufacturing era which was bad or a make/spec which I can look out for/avoid when buying more?

 

When did these less tolerant spec points come into being - seems like that might be a straightforward clue i.e. don't buy anything pre 1990??

 

I may resell as they were cheap!

 

Continuing thanks - J

[ejstubbs]

I doubt there is a significant difference in the frog geometry between insulfrog and electrofrog versions of the Peco turnouts.  (You are using Streamline, aren't you, not Setrack?)  As Kevin says, changing wheels is a whole lot easier than trying to 'fettle' proprietary pointwork - which very likely doesn't have anything wrong with it anyway.

 

For changing wheels on non-locomotive rolling stock, the Hornby wagon and coach wheels should be fine.  The 12.5mm wheels are for wagons, the 14.1mm wheels for coaches:

R8096 12.5mm disc wheels

R8097 12.5mm 3 hole wheels

R8098 12.5mm spoked wheels

R8218 14.1mm disc wheels

R8234 14.1mm 4 hole wheels

R8268 14.1mm 2 hole wheels

 

These are all metal axles with (insulated) metal wheels, which are generally regarded as being vastly better than plastic wheels in terms of not leaving dirt on the rails.  Also metal wheels and axles add to the weight of the wagon/coach, and do so in the best place ie low down, which in itself can noticeably improve the running of the wagon/coach.

 

Bachmann also do a range of replacement wheels, and even complete coach bogies - although these latter may require a bit of work to fit coaches from other manufacturers which don't use the same attachment/pivot mechanism as Bachmann (basically, if you're not confident about disassembling the coach to get access to chassis from the top, then don't go there).

 

Replacing the wheels is usually simply a case of gently easing the sides of the coach bogie or wagon underframe apart until the old wheels and axle can be removed, and then reversing the procedure to fit the new ones.

 

Note that quite a few older coaches were originally fitted with under-sized wheels, more like 13mm than 14mm.  Fitting slightly larger wheels might mean that the couplings end up a little too high to work reliably, so you may end up having to shim them down a little.

 

My experience has been that you can end up spending a non-trivial amount on re-wheeling and otherwise fettling older, second-hand stock, to the extent that it's ultimately more cost-effective to sell a troublesome old item on and buy a more modern version of the same thing if such is available.  As Kevin suggests, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that some of the used items you've bought were being disposed of for this very reason!  It ultimately comes down to a balance between how much money & effort you are prepared to spend making something work, versus the cost of buying a better equivalent.

 

Re-wheeling old locos may not be a straightforward task.  Unless you are prepared to get involved in re-working parts of the chassis/drivetrain then you may be limited to simply replacing the stock wheels with new ones of the same.  As Kevin suggests, run each loco 'light engine' through the troublesome areas to see if there's anything that's clearly not running true.  Also inspect the existing wheels and if there's nothing obviously wrong with them (no flat spots, warps, chunks missing etc) then you probably only need to check the back-to back on each axle and adjust if necessary.  For older locos, if the original wheels aren't up to running reliably through modern code 100 pointwork then replacing them with matching spare parts (eg from Peter's Spares, eBay etc) likely won't fix the problem.  It might be possible to fit more modern wheels, but that might also involve a fair bit of trial and error and/or research to find modern wheels that will fit with the minimum of modification to the rest of the loco.  Ultimately, the same balance applies as for non-locomotive stock: if it's going to take a lot of money and effort to put it right then you may prefer to put the old item back on eBay and simply suck up the extra cost of a newer model.

[Nearholmer]

If it coaches that are causing trouble, the other thing to look for is what, in real railway language, is caused "high rotational stiffness" ....... In short, if the bogies don't pivot freely, that will cause wheels to ride-up and derail, with the "tipping point" often being a tiny discontinuity or bump at pointwork.

 

So, have a look, and check that the coach bogies pivot nicely, not stiff, not catching on anything.

 

Finally, if the couplings are fitted to the bogies, rather than the car body, that is a frequent cause of trouble when propelling, because it can cause the bogies to "crab" and derail - but I think fitting the coupler to the bogie is standard practice is in r-t-r 00, so you might have to live with that.

 

K

[halsey]

Many thanks for such a detailed reply I will get to this progressively over the next few days/weeks but thanks for pointing (sorry for that) me in the right direction!

 

Much appreciated.

Continued thanks.................

J

[halsey]

Hi both,

 

I've just ordered 2 x 10 wheels for the carriages to see how I get on - many thanks