1980s Loco Changes away from stations

[GordonC]

I've been looking at some old Working Timetables where it looked like the WCML services bound for Stirling, Perth or further north (and even an odd Edinburgh service via the Shotts line) tended to change engines between AC electric and diesel at Mossend Yard rather than at a station stop, even when they were stopping at both Motherwell and Coatbridge Central. Obviously vice versa for southbound services swapping between diesel and AC electric power too.

 

Was it common to change engines away from a station stop on passenger services in those days? Was there an obvious reason why it was done there in a 10 minute stop rather than at a nearby (electrified) station?

 

Thanks,

Gordon

[Flood]

Mossend is the only place I can think of at the moment.

 

Even though there wasn't a station it was obviously very handy in an operating point of view. Prior to 1988 the electrics and class 37s/47s would have had mixed traffic diagrams so could work in on a passenger and out on a freight or vice versa.

 

Edit: Loco changing also occurred at Willesden West London Junction/Mitre Bridge Junction (depending whether the train was travelling North or South respectively).

[stovepipe]

No it wasn't common. The only other place I can think of was Grassmoor near March where some Summer dated trains changed power.

 

Mossend was where freights changed power, so there were locos and staff on hand to effect the changeover. As it was mostly long distance overnight trains, providing a local stopping point wasn't a priorty.

[HillsideDepot]

Mitre Bridge in West London was another spot where diesels and electrics swapped over away from a station.

[Swindon 123]

Farington Junction south of Preston was another place for loco changes, even steam to electric in recent times.

 

Paul J.

[keefer]

I might be getting mixed up, but didn't the FW sleeper have a loco change at eastfield/cowlairs?

in that the loco required for the onward journey northwards would attach to the rear of the incoming train - then once the train had headed down to GQS, the new loco would be at the front and would be banked out of GQS by the locos now at the back?

 

that said, did the train actually go into GQS, or did it just reverse using the cowlairs triangle?

EDIT: just noticed the OP was asking about AC/diesel changeovers, sorry

[ChrisH-UK]

IMO the reason was that the first/last station under the wires was not suitable for loco changes.

 

For trains changing at Mitre Bridge Jn the possible stop was Watford Jn, where a southbound change was just about feasible without blocking the busy running lines but not northbound.

 

I think at Motherwell the opposite was true, the only place for an electric loco to wait was the goods loop at Dalzell, I'm guessing the line wasn't signalled for reversible working and fixing this wasn't justifiable for at most a handful of trains each day.

[Gwiwer]

The only locations in the 1980s which were used with any regularity (and were indeed used almost daily) were those noted above namely Mossed and the West London Line near Mitre Bridge Junction.  In both cases the need was to change between diesel and electric traction at a convenient location in areas of high traffic.  Motherwell station could have been used but would have potentially caused delay on the main lines even in the wee hours.  There was nowhere handy between Kensington Olympia and Wembley Central - the two stations then open either side of Mitre Bridge - as the wires didn't reach Kenny O and Wembley (even in the yards) would again have caused congestion.

 

The question arose of the Fort William sleeper portion.  Over the years this has been route many different ways with and without loco changes.  In the 1980s alone I have travelled the following:-

1. Carstairs - Motherwell - Mossend (change traction) - Gartcosh - Cowlairs South to North (reverse, run round), Queen Street (reverse, change locos), Cowlairs South to West - Westerton;
2. As above but propelled by train engine from Cowlairs to Queen Street, guard acting as flagman, same engine forward to Fort William.
3. As 1 above but via Wishaw;
4. Carstairs - Motherwell - Mossend (change traction) - Stirling (reverse, change traction) - Croy - Queen Street (revers, change traction) - Cowlairs South to West - Westerton;

5. Carstairs - Motherwell - Mossend (change traction) - Cowlairs South to West (reverse and propel with guard acting as flagman at the leading end) - Queen Street (reverse) - Cowlairs South to West again - Westerton;

6. Carstairs (reverse, change traction) - Craiglockhart Junction - Edinburgh Suburban line - Niddrie West Junction - Edinburgh Waverley - Falkirk High - Glasgow Queen Street (reverse, change traction) - Cowlairs S to W - Westerton;

7. Carstairs - Motherwell - Glasgow Central (detach portion, reverse, change traction) - Rutherglen Junctions West to North - Queen Street Low Level - Anniesland - Westerton;

8. Dalmuir - Yoker - Queen Street Low Level - Springburn - Cowlairs South - Queen Street High Level (reverse, top and tail traction up bank) - Cowlairs South to North (reverse, train engine resumes) - Springburn - Gartcosh - Garnqueen - Mossend (change traction) - Motherwell - Carstairs.  How often do you get to travel by through train between the levels at Queen Street?

[The Border Reiver]

The up Royal Scot used to change engines at Upperby for a period in the 1950s or 60s when it did not stop at the station.

[mjkerr]

I might be getting mixed up, but didn't the FW sleeper have a loco change at eastfield/cowlairs?

in that the loco required for the onward journey northwards would attach to the rear of the incoming train - then once the train had headed down to GQS, the new loco would be at the front and would be banked out of GQS by the locos now at the back?

 

that said, did the train actually go into GQS, or did it just reverse using the cowlairs triangle?

At the time the Cowlairs triangle did not exist, from memory Class 156 units initially were still reversing at Eastfield, and sadly I only made this trip once on a Class 107

 

Yes, but sadly I was only able to witness the daytime changes (I never saw sleeper services at Glasgow Queen Street)

 

Fort William to Euston, via Glasgow Queen Street

Arrives with Class 37/4, Class 47 then attached

Train reverses to Eastfield, Class 47 and last two coaches then removed

Train then continues to Mossend for loco change

 

I assume the reverse occurs northbound, confirmed by photos with the two coaches attached at rear

 

My layout will include the following :

1V84 Inverness - Bristol

Class 47 attached to rear, train reverses to Eastfield, then removed

1S59 Taunton - Inverness

Class 47 attached to rear, train reverses to Glasgow Queen Street, then removed

 

As above, it makes more sense to change loco at Mossend rather than a station as the staff are nearby, so in the event of the train running late it does not leave the staff stranded for some time

Equally, the above services would change loco several times, which many other services did not, and this is one of the reasons why these services were either revised, simplified or completely withdrawn

[acg5324]

Brent yard was another loco change location have had several there on Merrymaker excursions from the south C33 off Peak or c47 on and vice versa.

[Fat Controller]

Is the track at Motherwell level; if there was any sort of a gradient, they might not have been allowed to stand a rake of coaches there without a loco attached.

Not an electric/diesel change, I know, but when we went on an excursion from Newcastle to Fort William in 1985, I'm pretty certain we stopped next to Eastfield depot to allow our 47 to be exchanged for 37s.

[Southernman46]

In the 70's, Brent yard opposite Cricklewood would see 33's coming off north-bound Merrymakers excursions for a 45 or 47 and on one extremely exciting day a par of Rats ...................

[mjkerr]

Is the track at Motherwell level; if there was any sort of a gradient, they might not have been allowed to stand a rake of coaches there without a loco attached

It does not matter if the track is level, protection is more important

As an example the join / split at Carstairs is not at level

Where the loco is removed the brake is applied

Therefore preference is to always have at least one loco attached

With the join / split at Carstairs this was the case, so no concerns over the gradient

 

By Motherwell, I assume you mean the station

There is no real facility or option to swap locos

The main issue is blocking the main line, otherwise the northbound Stirling motorail, Inverness Clansman, etc would have used this option

Instead they can be routed into the first inner siding at Mossend and held there indefinitely

 

Where there is no risk of blocking the main line then Braidhurst loop is used instead, again this keeps Motherwell station unblocked

In sectorisation / pre-privitisation days this was not often possible as the main line was generally in use and Motherwell depot was active

I believe the minimum blockage allowance is 20 minutes, anything above this and Mossend had to be used

[acg5324]

In the 70's, Brent yard opposite Cricklewood would see 33's coming off north-bound Merrymakers excursions for a 45 or 47 and on one extremely exciting day a par of Rats ...................

Snap! I have had doubleheaded c73/0's for a Peak on the Buxton Belle change locos here http://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/80s/850608se.htm

[DerekEm8]

A loco change at Mitre Bridge Junction

 

A Special Charter from Manchester to Southampton for the QE 2 July 1987

 

33060, 86213

 

33060 Headboard changed.

 

33060 Ready for the off.

 

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

47 a bit off-district after taking over from an electric at Mitre Bridge http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/49179-semaphore-signals-and-ole/&do=findComment&comment=561506

[5BarVT]

Until electrification between Carstairs and Edinburgh trains that did not split at Carstairs would change locos on the south to east curve as I recall.

 

Another route for the FW sleeper I think in the late 80s was a combined Glasgow/Stranraer/Fort William. The Stranraer and Fort portions were detached at Central leaving two coaches remaining in the platform. The Fort portion then ran via the Rutherglen West Curve and back through Low Level. I can't remember whether it ran via Yoker or Singer.

 

Paul.

[Gwiwer]

 

Another route for the FW sleeper ..... I can't remember whether it ran via Yoker or Singer.

 

 

 

Almost certainly via Yoker if running via Queen Street Low Level.

[Derekstuart]

I used to do that journey very regularly and I have only once had the locomotive change on the curve; I did ask out of curiosity and was told the rake was the wrong way around.
 

Maybe some other trains changed on the curve though.

 

I loved the sprint from the Lakes up to Carstairs and then the change from those electrickery things over to a nice Brush 4... It's just not the same now with those damned voyager railcars.

 

 

Until electrification between Carstairs and Edinburgh trains that did not split at Carstairs would change locos on the south to east curve as I recall.


Paul.

[GordonC]

Thanks for the replies folks ... lots of interesting info there!

[Lee]

Mitre Bridge changeover with a service to Brighton (date unrecorded).