Bachmann Anchor Mounted Tanks at Warley

[Gordon A]

Thanks for your posting Paul.

 

I agree there is not enough written about, with drawings, about tanker wagons.

The weakness of my observations are that they are based on one source of information.

 

It would be good if we knew what specific prototype Bachman used for their model, and so what the base line of realism is. 

 

Gordon A

[cctransuk]

Bachmann have not claimed that it is an accurate model for every livery it will be produced in. Like all companies making models of tank wagons they are compromising by having only one barrel dimension. But, it is not true to say that the length and wheelbase are inaccurate. As I have repeatedly said, The 20ton class Bs were on a frame of similar dimensions to the class As 10ft wheelbase and 17ft 6in over headstocks, but of course they have other differences. Yes there were more unusual anchor mounted tank wagons with longer wheelbase and much longer over headstocks like these Thomas Ness - NCB tanks http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/ncbtankwagons/e11396468 - a drawing is in Model Railways. Or BPCM http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/bpcsethanol/e4dbbf078

 

Tank wagons were incredibly complicated. We measured dozens of them and simply didn't repeat ourselves. As well as barrel dimensions the shape and angle of anchors vary, the fittings vary, the unloading arrangements vary. Tank wagons are a study in themselves. I haven't seen a Baccy anchor mount tank, but I suspect that the Benzene Class A tank is closer to being accurate. Just be grateful we managed to stop them producing the ICI design that they put in the first catalogue which had an interim mounting development that was possibly unique, certainly very unusual.

 

Paul

Paul,

 

I wouldn't argue with anything that you have written, but it is very clear that you and others - ("..we..") - have had significant input to what has eventually been produced.

 

Given that a minority, but a significant minority, of the customer base for this product DO care if the models that they run are prototypically correct; (thanks in no small part to your excellent web-site); then we might reasonably expect to be informed which of the three (to date) versions are correct.

 

Having had a part to play in the development of these wagons, this may be problematic for you, but then either the quest for authenticity is justified, or it is not !

 

I have hinted earlier in this thread that I would not be averse to producing authentic transfers for this model. Given that there has clearly been much behind-the-scenes correspondence during the development process for this model, as to what it can and cannot authentically represent, it would be helpful to all who strive for authenticity to know which liveries can correctly be applied; ideally with photographic references.

 

Now I know that Bachmann will wish to maximise the return on their investment in this tooling, but the days when an SR L1 could masquerade as an LMS 2P are long gone. The sooner that this realisation is applied to wagons and coaches, the better.

 

So, Bachmann; come clean and declare which liveries are authentic and which are not !!

 

If the necessary information is forthcoming - or if I am able to discover it for myself - I'll produce authentic tranfers for this model.

 

I'll go further - if I am confidentially informed which authentic liveries are planned for the future, I will avoid forestalling those models by producing transfers in advance.

 

Can't say fairer than that, can I ?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood,

Cambridge Custom Trnsfers.

[hmrspaul]

John

 

As I have said, I haven't even seen an example of the model. I don't model in 4mm and I don't know how Bachmann obtained information about the prototype they selected. I do know 'we' steered them towards the anchor mount being a good prototype for them, as they have so many early BR period locomotives, and we also had to steer away from the ICI tank which they were mistakenly steered towards unintentionally (not by me!). You know better than almost anyone on here that it simply is not possible to choose any tank wagon prototype that is going to be suitable for many different liveries so it is inevitable that the manufacturers will compromise. It is unfortunate that some poor writing by Tourret seems to have confused many, his photos are clear enough!

 

We are on post 77 and no one has even given the basic barrel dimensions of the model.

 

I do know that Bachmann knew that a tiny minority would be upset that they are not producing 4 different anchor mounted tank wagons.

 

Paul

[Gordon A]

Paul,

 

The barrel is 69.5mm long, 27.22 mm diameter, chassis over buffer beams is 70.1mm long and wheelbase is 40mm.

 

Gordon A

[cctransuk]

John

 

As I have said, I haven't even seen an example of the model. I don't model in 4mm and I don't know how Bachmann obtained information about the prototype they selected. I do know 'we' steered them towards the anchor mount being a good prototype for them, as they have so many early BR period locomotives, and we also had to steer away from the ICI tank which they were mistakenly steered towards unintentionally (not by me!). You know better than almost anyone on here that it simply is not possible to choose any tank wagon prototype that is going to be suitable for many different liveries so it is inevitable that the manufacturers will compromise. It is unfortunate that some poor writing by Tourret seems to have confused many, his photos are clear enough!

 

We are on post 77 and no one has even given the basic barrel dimensions of the model.

 

I do know that Bachmann knew that a tiny minority would be upset that they are not producing 4 different anchor mounted tank wagons.

 

Paul

 

Paul,

 

Thank you for clarifying the extent, or lack of it, of your involvement in the development of this model. I was hoping that someone, inside or outside Bachmann, had researched exactly what authentic liveries can be applied to this model as it stands.

 

Being in Greece at present, I cannot consult my references but I will do so when I return home. I did make a cursory trawl of my photo database before we left, but it is going to take some very careful study of photos to make a selection. I did, however, note that BENZINE and BENZOLE were alternative renditions of one of the liveries produced by Bachmann.

 

Judging by the split between the anchor mounting moulding and the tank itself, I would not be surprised if Bachmann have designed the tools to produce alternative length tanks. Those of us who model, as opposed to simply purchase, should be able to take advantage of this design feature in order to produce correct length tanks, even if varying the diameter may be a little more problematic.

 

All in all - food for thought when I'm back from lazy days in the sun; (should have brought a 'project' with me) !

 

Regards,

John Isherwood,

http://www.cctrans.org.uk/

[Wickham Green]

Paul,

 

Thank you for clarifying the extent, or lack of it, of your involvement in the development of this model. I was hoping that someone, inside or outside Bachmann, had researched exactly what authentic liveries can be applied to this model as it stands.

 

Being in Greece at present, I cannot consult my references but I will do so when I return home. I did make a cursory trawl of my photo database before we left, but it is going to take some very careful study of photos to make a selection. I did, however, note that BENZINE and BENZOLE were alternative renditions of one of the liveries produced by Bachmann.

 

Judging by the split between the anchor mounting moulding and the tank itself, I would not be surprised if Bachmann have designed the tools to produce alternative length tanks. Those of us who model, as opposed to simply purchase, should be able to take advantage of this design feature in order to produce correct length tanks, even if varying the diameter may be a little more problematic.

 

All in all - food for thought when I'm back from lazy days in the sun; (should have brought a 'project' with me) !

 

Regards,

John Isherwood,

http://www.cctrans.org.uk/

Having only the class 'B' tanker to go on, I can confirm that Bachmann have fitted the valve wheel on top and outlet manifold beneath so this one, at least, can only be BLACK. They probably could fit a longer/larger tank without the diameter discrepancy being too glaringly obvious - but they've not chosen to do so at this time ........... could I rebuild my model thus ? - no doubt, but it wouldn't leave much of the original !

[31A]

I bought one of the Shell BP tanks yesterday.  It's a very nice looking model; the 'join lines' between the sections of the tank are hardly visible on mine; in fact my photo probably does it a disservice really, to the naked eye they're even less visible:

 

 

[Arthur]

Having only the class 'B' tanker to go on, I can confirm that Bachmann have fitted the valve wheel on top and outlet manifold beneath so this one, at least, can only be BLACK.

 

Not quite following you there.

 

These wagons are, in a sense, modular. The basic chassis is identical on all of the models released so far, Class A or B, and there are two D shaped holes on the underside, just off the centre line. On the class B tanks the transverse outlet is a separate moulding fitted into one of the D holes. There are two tank centre units, one with and one without the valve wheel.

 

So basically, Bachman can, from a standard set of components, assemble a Class A or B tank to suit the prototype and livery.

 

There may be other modules produced in the future to add further variety.

 

.

[Fat Controller]

Looking at the latest David Larkin tome, 'Non-Pool Freight Stock 1948-68', it would seem that one of the significant differences between different builders is the design of the anchor-plate itself. Does Bachmann's modular construction allow for changes in these?

[hmrspaul]

I bought one of the Shell BP tanks yesterday.  It's a very nice looking model; the 'join lines' between the sections of the tank are hardly visible on mine; in fact my photo probably does it a disservice really, to the naked eye they're even less visible:

 

P1010804.jpg

 

I don't understand this comment, there is a raised welding line between the three parts that make up the barrel, and a horizontal weld join. This photo of a demounted one, because it has been repainted in grey, shows this very well http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/essounfit/eeed7b58 but all the other photos in the collection show it to some extent.

 

The anchors are different when the barrel is a different diameter, such as this class B tank, which is only 14tons and has a noticeably smaller diameter tank, which means the anchor has to be larger. http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/mtd/e32f01336

 

Paul

[31A]

I don't understand this comment, there is a raised welding line between the three parts that make up the barrel, and a horizontal weld join. This photo of a demounted one, because it has been repainted in grey, shows this very well http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/essounfit/eeed7b58 but all the other photos in the collection show it to some extent.

 

The anchors are different when the barrel is a different diameter, such as this class B tank, which is only 14tons and has a noticeably smaller diameter tank, which means the anchor has to be larger. http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/mtd/e32f01336

 

Paul

 

 

The model's tank barrel is made in three sections, with the joints between the sections running vertically just inboard of the outer tank mountings.  On the basis of photos of pre-production models, comments had been made previously that the joints between the three sections were overly obvious, as if the sections didn't fit together very well.  See, for example, the second picture in post no. 14 of this thread.

 

On my model, the joints are not very obvious and the parts are fitted together very well; in the photograph they can be seen (just to the right of the last letter 'L' in SHELL, and to the right of the ladder), but I was surprised when I looked at my photo to see how obvious they were in the picture as, to the naked eye, they are not obtrusive.  I think shadows cast by the lighting in my railway room have caused them to be over-emphasised, hence my comment.

 

The joints are in the same positions as the vertical seams on the real wagon's tank barrel as seen on the grounded tank in your picture, which they resemble.

[Arthur]

Looking at the latest David Larkin tome, 'Non-Pool Freight Stock 1948-68', it would seem that one of the significant differences between different builders is the design of the anchor-plate itself. Does Bachmann's modular construction allow for changes in these?

I've had a look Brian and am pretty sure that the anchors are moulded with the central portion of the tank barrel, as are the saddles, so no, changing these would require a whole new centre section.

 

It is difficult to be sure, they are glued together so disassembling one is not easy, but the lower portion of the centre barrel, that between the anchors and the saddles looks like a separate infill moulding.

[davefrk]

Looking at various photos and comparing the model I now have, it appears the tank is too short to be a 20 ton tank. On the photos of these class B tanks the dished ends overhang the buffer beams but the model has the dished ends well inside the bufferbeams. Plus the bufferbeams are far too long/wide as normally on tankers the beams are cut shorter and only just pass the solebars, of-course this can be addressed easily but the tank is just another avoidable mistake.

 

Dave Franks.

[hmrspaul]

Looking at various photos and comparing the model I now have, it appears the tank is too short to be a 20 ton tank. On the photos of these class B tanks the dished ends overhang the buffer beams but the model has the dished ends well inside the bufferbeams. Plus the bufferbeams are far too long/wide as normally on tankers the beams are cut shorter and only just pass the solebars, of-course this can be addressed easily but the tank is just another avoidable mistake.

 

Dave Franks.

 

Only some of the liveries are a mistake for the few of you whom want total accuracy. I do wonder how many of you are already operating the three types of pre-nat tank wagon Bachmann has already done, or the Hornby ones. Each of these is possibly accurate for a few of the liveries they are finished in, but incorrect for most because there are so many variables with tank wagons. Bachmann were well aware that there would be criticism that they were not producing lots of different models to get each one exactly correct. Or the TTA. To the best of my knowledge there has only been one brake rigging and one barrel - just look at the really noticeable differences in the photos on my site. Each company producing these had their own ideas, then there were the ones built vacuum braked and air braked much later in life, and then the type of bearings are noticeably different, and all that before looking at the barrel size.

 

 

Paul

[31A]

If I'd known yesterday what I know now, I wouldn't have bought it!  I can usually tell (or can find out) whether railway company owned goods wagons are accurate models or not, but don't have enough knowledge or information relating to tank wagons to be able to assess their accuracy, although I do realise they are a bit of a 'mine field'.

[davefrk]

Hi Paul, I don't know why you have quoted me as I wasn't talking about the liveries but the basic structure of the new anchor mount tank. Bachmann were trying to make a more accurate tanker and at first glance it does look the part but something wasn't right, it didn't quite look like the 20ton tanks in your pictures, like I said the tank is far too short but the new underframe isn't bad with the brakegear being right way round IIRC, as the wagon is now in the train on the club layout but awaiting weathering.

 

All the best,

 

Dave .

[darren01]

Still do not like these tank wagons, it's the lines down the tank that make it look wrong, I  not going to pay good money they want for these with a model that I will have to work on to cover the lines down the tank.

Darren

[31A]

Still do not like these tank wagons, it's the lines down the tank that make it look wrong, I  not going to pay good money they want for these with a model that I will have to work on to cover the lines down the tank.

Darren

 

 

I don't think you need to have any worries on that score, Darren. The three parts which make up the barrel on mine were so well fitted together that I had to look very carefully (and look back at the pictures at the beginning of this thread) to convince myself that they actually were three separate parts.  And as you can see from Paul Bartlett's pictures, the joins between the sections are in places where there are seams on the real wagons.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Still do not like these tank wagons, it's the lines down the tank that make it look wrong, I not going to pay good money they want for these with a model that I will have to work on to cover the lines down the tank.

Darren

Is that because there aren't enough of them? Tank barrels of this size were usually made of three 'slices', each of which was in two or more rolled plates welded to form the ring. They then had the end plates welded on, so there should be at least four vertical and two horizontal weld lines. Edited July 4, 2016 by TheSignalEngineer

[davefrk]

Still do not like these tank wagons, it's the lines down the tank that make it look wrong, I  not going to pay good money they want for these with a model that I will have to work on to cover the lines down the tank.

Darren

Hi Darren, I have to say the joins on my two are much neater than the ones in the pre-release photos and I'm quite happy with that, as said above they are at the butt joins of the real thing. But with the realisation of the size problem I won't be buying any more even at the discount price I got them for.

 

Dave.

[Arthur]

 

I have six of these, 3 Benzine, 2 Shell and 1 Esso. There are small differences between the 'tightness' of the fit of the barrels, none are really bad, but if it bothers you check any model before you buy.

[Dunsignalling]

I don't think you need to have any worries on that score, Darren. The three parts which make up the barrel on mine were so well fitted together that I had to look very carefully (and look back at the pictures at the beginning of this thread) to convince myself that they actually were three separate parts.  And as you can see from Paul Bartlett's pictures, the joins between the sections are in places where there are seams on the real wagons.

They are almost invisible on my black pair. Admittedly, the joins are a bit more noticeable on the silver one but you have to get up close before they really leap out at you..

 

As you say, they do follow the weld lines seen on the prototypes.  

 

John

[Wickham Green]

Only some of the liveries are a mistake for the few of you whom want total accuracy. I do wonder how many of you are already operating the three types of pre-nat tank wagon Bachmann has already done, or the Hornby ones. Each of these is possibly accurate for a few of the liveries they are finished in, but incorrect for most because there are so many variables with tank wagons. Bachmann were well aware that there would be criticism that they were not producing lots of different models to get each one exactly correct. Or the TTA. To the best of my knowledge there has only been one brake rigging and one barrel - just look at the really noticeable differences in the photos on my site. Each company producing these had their own ideas, then there were the ones built vacuum braked and air braked much later in life, and then the type of bearings are noticeably different, and all that before looking at the barrel size.

 

 

Paul

Minefield indeed ! ......... I was hoping to run my Esso 2672 with the three earlier Esso clas 'B' wagons Bachmann offered as a 'weathered' ( = oily ) set : 1231, 1855 & 1869 : they're all on standard 17'6'' x 10' chassis but the first should be a 1911 type wagon on 18' x 10'6'' frames ( otherwise not a bad model and should be possible to rebuild ) : the other two are numbered as rebuilt Air Ministry tanks 'class 'A' but, like 2672, the tanks are too small, they're cradle mounted rather than saddle, the domes, valve wheels, ladders and under-length platforms are in the wrong place ! With a LOT of work it should be possible to make them into ex Air Ministry Lube-Oil wagons such as 2305 shown on Paul's site - coupled, by coincidence, to the real 1855 and emphasizing the difference in tank size. All three tanks need the diagonal stays bringing outside the solebars .... anyone want to do me etched ends for these ?

[Gordon A]

What books are available as a source of information on fuel / oil tank wagons?

 

I have:

Petroleum Rail Tank Wagons of Britain by R. Tourret

Oil on the Rails by A. Coppin

 

Gordon A

[Dunsignalling]

What books are available as a source of information on fuel / oil tank wagons?

 

I have:

Petroleum Rail Tank Wagons of Britain by R. Tourret

Oil on the Rails by A. Coppin

 

Gordon A

I also have these:

 

Cheona Publications, Railways in Profile series.

 

No.4: British Railway wagons - Railtanks, compiled by G. Gamble. 

 

No.14: British Railway Private Owner tank wagons, compiled by R. Tourret.

 

Pages 36/7 of the former carries photos of two distinct types of 20t anchor-mount tanks in Shell-BP Class B livery. One looks very like the Bachmann model but with a slightly fatter barrel (or so it appears to me) but the other is radically different.

 

John

Edited July 4, 2016 by Dunsignalling