Building kits for Tyneside in the BR era. J24 and PDK D49/2

[rowanj]

The Chivers D20 looks excellent - such a shame that the kits are no longer available.

 

Railex NE is on this weekend. I went along hoping to pick up a Dave Alexander tender. He was there but the tender kit wasn't. He is coming towards the end of a course of treatment, but at the moment is unable to get into the loft to see what is there !!! He is a wonderful man, and I'm sure all modellers, especially those of a NE persuasion, wish him well.

[rowanj]

As a break from trying to turn the DJH D20 from a sows ear into something more like the real thing.here is the ancient Wills A3 returning to Heaton with a stopper from Edinburgh to Newcastle.. Other than glazing, the loco is as complete as I will make it, other than to put a smear of Araldite on the leading LH cylinder block where I'm getting an intermittent short.

 

The idea is that the loco is work-stained, rather than in Gateshead livery...

 

 

 

[micklner]

My DJH D20 build is here

 

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/943-lner-models-in-4mm/page-7

[rowanj]

My DJH D20 build is here

 

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/943-lner-models-in-4mm/page-7

 

Thanks, Mick - I had actually managed to track your build down. I see your version has the Worsdell frames. Do I assume you cut and filed the DJH ones to shape?

 

The cab is excellent.

 

John

Edited July 30, 2018 by rowanj

[micklner]

Nothing as posh, it is as supplied by DJH, simple horrid slab brass frames, I just added the brakes and scratch brake cylinders.

 

One thing I did to the body, if Mr Bedford still sells them are the etched Brass splasher decorations, which came on a sheet of various radius. They are useful on other locos as well (C7 and A2 on my builds have used them as well). If yours is going to be BR Black use some flattened brass wire instead.

[rowanj]

My reference to "frames" has caused an understandable confusion, as I was referring to the parts above the footplate ahead of the splashers. Mick's are the more common type,referred to as "Worsdsll" whilst my kit are the longer "Raven" versions. There is no option to change them, and so I wondered if either Mick or another had altered his kit, or if DJH at some stage had produced an alternative casting.

While I don't see myself building another DJH D20 unless one turned up cheaply, if I did, it would be a Worsdell framed loco,

I'm just too young to remember D20,s in the flesh, but they certainly were lovely looking locos.

[Pebbles]

I can confirm that DJH D20 kits as originally produced had Worsdell frames.

[micklner]

My reference to "frames" has caused an understandable confusion, as I was referring to the parts above the footplate ahead of the splashers. Mick's are the more common type,referred to as "Worsdsll" whilst my kit are the longer "Raven" versions. There is no option to change them, and so I wondered if either Mick or another had altered his kit, or if DJH at some stage had produced an alternative casting.

While I don't see myself building another DJH D20 unless one turned up cheaply, if I did, it would be a Worsdell framed loco,

I'm just too young to remember D20,s in the flesh, but they certainly were lovely looking locos.

 

Ah ha , I thought you were referring to the chassis !!! I hadn't even noticed the extended frames on your version, I am very surprised that DJH ever did this, as the moulds would have to have been remade.

 

Mine was a eBay buy so no idea how old my kit is. Has yours still got the horrid old chassis ?

[Pebbles]

Just a thought. As one of Mikemegs D20s has the Raven frames maybe Mike has a spare set of Worsdell frames that could be used as overlays.

[mikemeg]

Just a thought. As one of Mikemegs D20s has the Raven frames maybe Mike has a spare set of Worsdell frames that could be used as overlays.

 

John/Pebbles,

 

Mike does indeed have a spare set of etches for both the Worsdell and Raven frames as fitted to the D20's. You're very welcome to whichever you need; just pm me with your address and I'll send them on to you.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[mikemeg]

John,

 

You asked about the location of the whistle on 62396. Looking at the photo of this loco, which Mick Nicholson posted on this thread, it looks as though the whistle is mounted on, or more precisely in, the cab roof. If you click onto this photo, it will enlarge and allow you to study the detail around the cab front/firebox top. The LNER seems to have fitted a box, in front of the cab on the firebox top, as some form of whistle operating mechanism. This box is also visible on Mick's photo.

 

My apologies for supplying duff information.

 

Regards

 

Mike

Edited August 1, 2018 by mikemeg

[ArthurK]

The D20s originally had twin whistles mounted on a 'U' pipe on top of the firebox. In late LNER/BR days there is onlly a single whistle mounted on the cab roof with no piping visible. However there was a box mounted on the cab front, These boxes appeared on many locos in late LNER/BR days there was normally a single whistle mounted on the front of this. It also had a cut-out valve to isolate the whistle.  On the D20s the box was added but I haven't yet determined it's function.

 

ArthurK

[rowanj]

. Has yours still got the horrid old chassis ?

 

It certainly does - 2 brass slabs assembled using 3 spacers screwed through pre- drilled holes. There is no provision for the fitting of brakes or sandpipes, though the casting for the valve between the driving wheels is neat. I'm going to fit a Highlevel Compact+ gearbox, so dispensed with the middle spacer, and having checked that all was level with the driving wheels and bogie fitted, soldered in the spacer at front and rear, drilled holes for the wire for the brakes, and filled in the spacer holes with Isopan

 

Pretty crude stuff, but it seems ok so far.

Edited August 3, 2018 by rowanj

[rowanj]

The chassis has now had brakes and front sandpipes added, and the Compact+/Mashima 1020 fitted. I've just discovered it should have rear sandpipes too.

 

I'm not sure about the front end of the loco.I measured the extension necessary for the superheated loco, (3 times) and it originally looked OK. Having fitted the smokebox door, and seen it fitted to the footplate, it looks a bit long, I'm not sure - some of the photos in Yeadon 34 make it look about right.

 

The Raven frames on the kit run almost to the buffer beam, and photos seem to suggest that the did get closer than the Worsdell ones. Mike's version has his set further back than in the DJH kit. I've compromised and filed the frames back a touch. I also needed to alter the cover ahead of the smokebox saddle,  as on the Raven version it seems to be square rather than curved.

 

I'm undecided about the tender, given all the other inaccuracies in the kit. The cutouts in the frames are hopelessly wrong - look at Mick's version using a Dave Alexander tender to see how they should look- but whether to invest in a new one, given everything else that's wrong, is a moot point. I'm considering trying to reshape the DJH cutouts, but that wont be easy. A better alternative would be to cut of the frames, which are integral to the tender sides, and replace them with accurate ones, and build a sub- chassis for the tender. Does anyone know if these are available as spares?

 

This is one of the kits where I'm wondering if it's all worth the effort.

Edited August 5, 2018 by rowanj

[Pebbles]

Scratch building a cast kit!

[rowanj]

Scratch building a cast kit!

Probably not quite that bad...but a couple of hours today were spent studying photos of the front end of a Raven framed D20.As a result, I dismantled my smokebox extension, fitted a shorter version, and used filler to extend the lower part of the extension where it meets the saddle. It's still not perfect, but looks a lot better.

[Pebbles]

RCTS quotes the non superheated smoke box length as 3ft 3/4in lengthened to 4ft 1in when superheated. Disregarding any other dimensional issues, lengthening the smokebox by 4mm - to give a total length of a whisker over 16mm - should be about right. 

[mikemeg]

 

The Raven frames on the kit run almost to the buffer beam, and photos seem to suggest that the did get closer than the Worsdell ones. Mike's version has his set further back than in the DJH kit. I've compromised and filed the frames back a touch. I also needed to alter the cover ahead of the smokebox saddle,  as on the Raven version it seems to be square rather than curved.

 

I'm undecided about the tender, given all the other inaccuracies in the kit. The cutouts in the frames are hopelessly wrong - look at Mick's version using a Dave Alexander tender to see how they should look- but whether to invest in a new one, given everything else that's wrong, is a moot point. I'm considering trying to reshape the DJH cutouts, but that wont be easy. A better alternative would be to cut of the frames, which are integral to the tender sides, and replace them with accurate ones, and build a sub- chassis for the tender. Does anyone know if these are available as spares?

 

This is one of the kits where I'm wondering if it's all worth the effort.

 

John,

 

Checking the positioning of the front of the Raven mainframes, above the footplate, on Arthur's kit indicates that they reach the position of the rear of the buffer beam. Bear in mind that the D20's, certainly in their later days, had the 'sandwich' buffer beam - steel/wood/steel - which was a pretty thick assembly (somewhere around 6" thick?) and that the mainframes would abut but not overlap this assembly.

 

Cheers

 

MIke

Edited August 9, 2018 by mikemeg

[ArthurK]

John,

 

Checking the positioning of the front of the Raven mainframes, above the footplate, on Arthur's kit indicates that they reach the position of the rear of the buffer beam. Bear in mind that the D20's, certainly in their later days, had the 'sandwich' buffer beam - steel/wood/steel - which was a pretty thick assembly (somewhere around 6" thick?) and that the mainframes would abut but not overlap this assembly.

 

Cheers

 

MIke

 

The upper frames and the lower frames were one and the same. Consequently both end at the rear of the bufferbeam. The sandwich bufferbeam adds 4 3/8". The bufferbeam was 1" thick. Total ahead of the frames was therefore 5 3/8". The Raven and Worsdell frames were the same length. It was only the shape above the footplate was different.

 

ArthurK

[Pebbles]

If its any help, the distance from the front edge of the footplate to the face of the smokebox - not the smokebox door - works out to just over 13mm.

[rowanj]

The D20 loco body is as complete as it is likely to be, though I would have added a  few extra bits if I had the castings. The photos reveal a slight dip in the LH smokebox handrail - now straightened - and a discrepancy in the ride-height between loco and tender- also resolved.

 

I always struggle with the handrail curve over the smokebox. I've tried the " 2-piece" method, joining at the handrail knob on the smokebox door. This time, I formed the curves carefully and soldered them to the front handrail knobs on the smokebox sides.  

 

The RH side leading driver shorts/smokes when power is applied, so needs replacing. This was the side of the loco body where most added detail was applied - pipework etc, and the very prominent "access hatch" between the splashers which is presumably a lubrication/maintenance point, and is so obvious on all photos that it should really have been offered in the kit .Ross pop valves were I the spares box, as was the whistle. The box on the firebox is formed from plasticard, as were the 2 pieces which run between the boiler and splashers. The Westinghouse pump. which looks nothing like anything I've ever seen in Yeadon, and will need replacing.

 

The tender is still inaccurate - I pinched it from my Dave Alexander Q7 just to test the look.

[mikemeg]

John,

 

The D20 is going to do a wee bit of damage to the ballast/sleepers with the coupling rod having come adrift on the leading driver!

 

Arthur produces and sells a range of castings for the D20, including the 'truncated' Westinghouse pump, mechanical lubricator. weigh shaft and reversing rod, brake cylinders, sand pipes and the backhead and cab details.

 

The inspection hatch on the rhs of the splasher is to allow access to the Westinghouse pump (the portion hidden within the splasher). This hatch cover also carried the cast brass numberplate in North Eastern days.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited August 15, 2018 by mikemeg

[rowanj]

John,

 

The D20 is going to do a wee bit of damage to the ballast/sleepers with the coupling rod having come adrift on the leading driver!

 

 

 

Mike

 

That is the smoking gun/wheel, Mike. I seem to have a few insulated Markits bough for A1/3/4 kits which seem fine when on powered track but short/smoke when pickups are fitted to the rim. You can see them getting hot and sparking. I don't suppose there is a cure. The crankpin was removed once I was satisfied that the wheels revolved freely and the motor /gearbox ran smoothly. A replacement is on the way, courtesy of 46256.

 

There is no comparison between the DJH kit and Arthur's etched version. If his is available - I know this is not always the case - certainly go for that one. I still await a J71and J77 when he has sufficient orders to produce a run.

 

I'm not convinced that the DJH kit warrants much more spent on it to bring it up to standard. I have done enough to make it look like a 1957 loco rather than an original NER one, and am satisfied that it will be OK as a layout loco, as I hope the photos show.

 

As ever, thanks for your post (and PM).

 

John

Edited August 15, 2018 by rowanj

[mikemeg]

 

I always struggle with the handrail curve over the smokebox. I've tried the " 2-piece" method, joining at the handrail knob on the smokebox door. This time, I formed the curves carefully and soldered them to the front handrail knobs on the smokebox sides.  

 

 

John,

 

The attached photo shows my method for producing these 'one piece' handrails. I normally use 0.4mm brass wire for this purpose.

 

1) Note that all handrail stanchions, except the smokebox top stanchion, are fitted prior to forming the handrail. I normally fix each one individually slotting it onto a piece of wire to ensure that the orientation of the hole is exactly horizontal. I always start this process from the cab end and I always glue these stanchions in, rather than soldering them. The second stanchion is then fitted, again using a piece of wire, which is then slid into the first fitted stanchion to check for level. The third is then fitted and the wire is slid into no's two and one, checking for level, etc. So no four is fitted and the wire slid into nos 3, 2 and 1, etc until the last one is reached on the smokebox side.

 

I use Alan Gibson medium stanchions on the boiler and the short stanchions on the smokebox, which preserves the straightness of the fitted handrail.

 

2) Form the handrail curves using appropriately sized formers. I use a piece of 14 mm diameter copper tube for the smokebox curve - the wire curve will be slightly larger in diameter than the former due to the wire springiness - and 2 mm rods for the reverse curves around the smokebox. The reverse curves around each side of the smokebox are actually two intersecting curves; one to restore the rail to the horizontal and one to take the rail through 90 degress to follow the smokebox side/boiler. I also make a diagram, on a piece of card, which acts as a jig for the various curves indicating the depth at which each curve should begin. This prevents any deviation from parallel and from straight.

 

3) After forming every element of these curves, then check the profile against the boiler/smokebox and against the card jig, adjusting as necessary. This process may involve two, three, five or even eight separate checks of the rail as it is being formed.

 

4) When, and only when the rail is exactly the correct profile, then adjust the lengths to fit. Again I do this incrementally, fitting the adjusted rail into the stanchions after every adjustment until the desired lengths are achieved. The objective, here, is that the smokebox curve, on the handrail, should stand off the smokebox front by exactly the required amount, roughly 1.75  - 2.0 mm; the projecting length of a fitted short handrail stanchion.

 

5) Check the fit and profile again. This is the fifth, sixth, seventh, even tenth check, before final fixing.

 

6) Slot the smokebox top stanchion and top lamp iron onto the rail; check for alignment and position and then fit and fix the handrail.

 

7) The essence of these boiler/smokebox handrails is that each and every curve should 'flow' into the next. If they don't flow, then the handrail is wrong and should be done again!!

 

On this model, the whole of the above process, from fixing the stanchions to final fixing of the profiled handrail took around four hours. I leave it to you to judge whether that investment in time and effort is worth it, though I think it is.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited August 17, 2018 by mikemeg

[rowanj]

Thanks, Mike, - good advice, as always.

 

I'm annoyed with myself for forgetting the reversing lever, which doesnt come as a casting from DJH, but was easy enough to fabricate and fit from scrap etch.

 

Incidentally, if this picture is your 62396, I think it had lost the windjammer by BR days.

 

Best wishes