Building kits for Tyneside in the BR era. J24 and PDK D49/2

[jwealleans]

I’m fairly sure there are pictures of A8s in traffic with the enhanced cladding removed and they do look very different.

[mikemeg]

I’m fairly sure there are pictures of A8s in traffic with the enhanced cladding removed and they do look very different.

 

I believe that most of them were to be seen, towards the end of their lives, with the enhanced cladding removed. This seems to have been the case when the newer LNER designed 63B or 63C boiler was fitted.

 

The previous photo of 69852 appears to show that characteristic 'step up' from boiler diameter to smokebox diameter i.e. no enhanced cladding. The photo below, again courtesy Mick Nicholson, shows an A8 with the 63/63A boiler configuration.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 13, 2019 by mikemeg

[ArthurK]

The original boiler was 5' 9 1/4" over the cladding, the same as the smokebox. This applied to Dia, 63 and 63A boilers. With Dia, 63B & 63C boilers the claddind became 5' 0" and made a marked change to their appearance. The 63B boilers had a much fatter dome than  the others. Also worthy of note is the 'T' strap, visible on the slimmer boilers, to stabilise the tanks. I believe that this was also there on the earlier boilers but hidden under the cladding.

 

I can confirm that both styles of boiler were to be seen in the 40s and 50s. Those were my trainspotting days and platforms 4-7 at Newcastle always had at least one arrived from Sunderland or Middlesborough.

 

ArthurK

[mikemeg]

Arthur,

 

Am I correct in the belief that the A8's had an unusual arrangement on their front crankpins, in that the connecting rod big end was mounted inside of the coupling rod journal? This arrangement to preserve the parallel relationship of the connecting rod with the slide bars.

 

Regards

 

Mike

Edited January 11, 2019 by mikemeg

[rowanj]

The posts on A8 boilers are tinely, as I need to decide on a number for my loco. Ideally, I want an example which got into Newcastle in the mid to late 50's -( though I doubt they got north of Heaton)

 

The DJH kit supplies only the fat 63 or 63A boiler, and the bunker cage fitted to locos built after 1920. Yeadon seems to suggest that only 63B boilers were fitted at Works after 1952 or so, though some 63A fitted carried them until about 1955/6.

 

69873 carried a 63A. until 9/56  when it was shedded at Middlesbrough and Durham. This is probably as close as I'm going to get.

 

For a BR loco, a 63B boiler is much mote prototypical, and this will be provided by the forthcoming 52F kit. Does Arthur supply it as a spare with his A6 kit?

 

And yes, Mike, the con rod should be inside the coupling rod on the leading drivers - unlike my model, damn it !!

[ArthurK]

Arthur,

 

Am I correct in the belief that the A8's had an unusual arrangement on their front crankpins, in that the connecting rod big end was mounted inside of the coupling rod journal? This arrangement to preserve the parallel relationship of the connecting rod with the slide bars.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

On the front axle the connecting rods were indeed inside the front coupling rods. The  wheel centres were flared after the custom of inside cylinder locos. The cylinders  were spaced 6' 5"  apart. The rear coupling rod was a separate entity and, apart form its journal being smaller, was  identical with that at the front and sat outside the latter. No need forked coupling rod joints on this one! 

The  LNER GA  does show the 'T' strap below the cladding. 

 

ArthurK                                                      

[mikemeg]

The posts on A8 boilers are tinely, as I need to decide on a number for my loco. Ideally, I want an example which got into Newcastle in the mid to late 50's -( though I doubt they got north of Heaton)

 

The DJH kit supplies only the fat 63 or 63A boiler, and the bunker cage fitted to locos built after 1920. Yeadon seems to suggest that only 63B boilers were fitted at Works after 1952 or so, though some 63A fitted carried them until about 1955/6.

 

69873 carried a 63A. until 9/56  when it was shedded at Middlesbrough and Durham. This is probably as close as I'm going to get.

 

For a BR loco, a 63B boiler is much mote prototypical, and this will be provided by the forthcoming 52F kit. Does Arthur supply it as a spare with his A6 kit?

 

And yes, Mike, the con rod should be inside the coupling rod on the leading drivers - unlike my model, damn it !!

 

John,

 

I checked as many A8 photos, in British Railways days, as I could find which included 69873 still carrying the 'fat' boiler. In mid-1950, which is the timescale of my layout, this loco was based at 53B - Hull Botanic Gardens - so if I build an A8 with the fat boiler, could be this one, or Scarborough's 69885. From the photos I checked, by the mid 1950's most, though not all, of the class were carrying the later 'slimmer' boiler.

 

What I couldn't find was a photo of an A8 still with the larger 63/63A boiler and carrying the later British Railways totem i.e. post 1956. Though that certainly doesn't mean there was no such example!

 

As to Arthur providing a spare boiler with his A6 kit, no. All of the A6 boilers were of the same diameter; they differed in the location of the dome, boiler bands, etc. all of which variations are covered on a single wrapper etch within the kit.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 12, 2019 by mikemeg

[Worsdell forever]

A quick look through the BR Database shows one with a 63A at the end, (but the works visits section shows otherwise) http://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&id=600801026&type=S&loco=1528

 

And then there are mistakes like this showing one being fitted 5 years after withdrawal. http://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&id=600801045&type=S&loco=1530

[46256]

Good afternoon John, I always enjoy how much help and support you receive on this thread from fellow North Eastern enthusiasts....modellers. This is in part I think, a response to the sheer pleasure you impart to your modelling projects. Thank you and those mentioned for presenting the best in our hobby.

 

Best wishes Brian

[rowanj]

Good afternoon John, I always enjoy how much help and support you receive on this thread from fellow North Eastern enthusiasts....modellers. This is in part I think, a response to the sheer pleasure you impart to your modelling projects. Thank you and those mentioned for presenting the best in our hobby.

 

Best wishes Brian

 

Afternoon, Brian.

 

You are correct - the help and overall tone on this thread has been a real inspiration to me. Glad you see the same thing from a visitor's point of view.

 

I looked at Yeadon again re 69873 and Paul's suggestion - 69875.

 

Re 69873, Mike, Yeadon has the loco transferred from Hull on 19/1/50 to Middlesbrough , then West Hartlepool (17/7/55),Durham (15/9/57 presumably for banking duty) then Sunderland (7/12/58 to withdrawal 8/2.60) It lost its' 63A boiler 14/9/56.

 

69875  was at West Auckland 20/2/49 then Sunderland 22/6/58. It lost its' 63A boiler 2/11/56.

 

My speculation on a boiler from Arthur was based on obtaining it as a spare, cutting off the DJH version behind the smokebox and replacing it. Of course, the same thing would be achieved with 20mm external diameter tube!

 

John

Edited January 12, 2019 by rowanj

[mikemeg]

Afternoon, Brian.

 

You are correct - the help and overall tone on this thread has been a real inspiration to me. Glad you see the same thing from a visitor's point of view.

 

I looked at Yeadon again re 69873 and Paul's suggestion - 69875.

 

Re 69873, Mike, Yeadon has the loco transferred from Hull on 19/1/50 to Middlesbrough , then West Hartlepool (17/7/55),Durham (15/9/57 presumably for banking duty) then Sunderland (7/12/58 to withdrawal 8/2.60) It lost its' 63A boiler 14/9/56.

 

69875  was at West Auckland 20/2/49 then Sunderland 22/6/58. It lost its' 63A boiler 2/11/56.

 

My speculation on a boiler from Arthur was based on obtaining it as a spare, cutting off the DJH version behind the smokebox and replacing it. Of course, the same thing would be achieved with 20mm external diameter tube!

 

John

 

John,

 

I'm actually planning to do the reverse. My plan is to build two of 52F's A8 kits, when available.

 

The one will be done as is, with the 63B boiler and all of the later fittings. The other I plan to build the 'fatter' boiler and fit that to the kit, which might necessitate a little re-engineering.

 

I'm not planning to use the DJH kit, for these, given the imminent availability of an etched kit.

 

69873 is an odd one. The August 1950 stocklist still shows it allocated to 53B - Hull Botanic Gardens yet Yeadon shows it 'gone norf' by then. I'll play safe with 69885 as the 'fat one', which was at Scarborough for many years. Attached, a photo (lots of North Eastern detail on this) of that same loco, again courtesy Mick Nicholson.

 

If you look very carefully, one of the front guard irons, on the loco, is missing. There's a prototype example for almost everything!! And what is that, on the post, immediately behind the North Eastern slotted post signal? Unusually in this day and age, much of this scene is still there - the signal box, the footbridge and station roof. Of course much else, which made this scene so much of its time, has long gone.

 

Regards

 

MIke

Edited January 13, 2019 by mikemeg

[rowanj]

Thanks, Mike. Always good to hear from you.

 

The 52F kit, which I was lucky enough to see and hold- what a weight..- will be light-years ahead of the DJH model. I would be surprised if Peter doesnt provide the alternate boilers. I look forward to following your builds...as you know I have reserved a body kit to go with the chassis I already have once it is released, which I understand is imminent.

 

I do think, though, that anyone wanting to build a DJH A8 for the BR era would be well advised to look at the options for replacing the boiler provided with the "thin" 63A, which was much more common and was present on all the locos still in service after 1956 (as far as I can see). The DJH boiler/smokebox is a one-piece casting, so, assuming you can either get a piece of tube of the correct diameter or roll a part for yourself, cutting the boiler from the smokebox and attaching the new one should be straightforward.  Easy for me to say, of course..

 

John

[mikemeg]

Thanks, Mike. Always good to hear from you.

 

The 52F kit, which I was lucky enough to see and hold- what a weight..- will be light-years ahead of the DJH model. I would be surprised if Peter doesnt provide the alternate boilers. I look forward to following your builds...as you know I have reserved a body kit to go with the chassis I already have once it is released, which I understand is imminent.

 

I do think, though, that anyone wanting to build a DJH A8 for the BR era would be well advised to look at the options for replacing the boiler provided with the "thin" 63A, which was much more common and was present on all the locos still in service after 1956 (as far as I can see). The DJH boiler/smokebox is a one-piece casting, so, assuming you can either get a piece of tube of the correct diameter or roll a part for yourself, cutting the boiler from the smokebox and attaching the new one should be straightforward.  Easy for me to say, of course..

 

John

 

John,

 

I believe that Peter is planning to provide only the later 63B and 63C boiler variants i.e. those with 5' 0" diameter over the cladding. He has included a couple of options on the smokebox front, for the different diameters of smokebox doors, and two or three options on the bunker configuration.

 

It shouldn't be too much of a problem to fabricate and fit a 5' 9" diameter boiler though the dome, which is a very different shape, will have to be sourced separately and the safety valve base - if a model in original condition is being built - also separately sourced.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 14, 2019 by mikemeg

[micklner]

Spec on his site, it mentions 3 Diagrams of Boiler.

 

 

https://www.52fmodels.org/a8-loco-kit

Edited January 14, 2019 by micklner

[rowanj]

Spec on his site, it mentions 3 Diagrams of Boiler.

 

 

https://www.52fmodels.org/a8-loco-kit

Hello Mike and Mick

 

And he specifically mentions the "fat" 63A.

 

Also the first confirmation of what I suspected re Dave Alexander - must give him a ring.

 

John

Edited January 14, 2019 by rowanj

[rowanj]

Now and again,I'll post a photo here of the kits in action. Here is the Arthurk kit of the Worsdell J77 heading the LOCO coal past little Benton North and about to leave for the Blyth and Tyne route.

 

John

[MarkC]

I have acquired a Little Engines A8 kit. It's only in the roundtuit pile at present, but it will be interesting to see how it compares to the DJH offering. Anyone already built and compared the two?

[rowanj]

I have acquired a Little Engines A8 kit. It's only in the roundtuit pile at present, but it will be interesting to see how it compares to the DJH offering. Anyone already built and compared the two?

 

The loss of Little Engines kits was a real shame. I wasn't building when they were around, but they seem to have a good reputation. My only knowledge of the A8 kit is from a conversation with Peter Stranger, who said the DJH version was too short and the Little Engines too long. I'll be interested in following your build, Mark, when you get round to it. Feel free to post here if you don't want to start your own thread.

 

I began lining my loco using Modelmaster transfers, The curves around the cab window are absolute sods, and really should be done with a bow pen, which I don't have and couldn't use if I did. No "Pencil Caesar "me (for fans of Ian Dury). I can see that part of loco getting weathered,,,

 

I don't have many pictures in colour of BR A8's and those I do show pretty grubby locos. So I am unsure whether I should be lining the boiler bands. If anyone knows...???

Edited January 17, 2019 by rowanj

[mikemeg]

I began lining my loco using Modelmaster transfers, The curves around the cab window are absolute sods, and really should be done with a bow pen, which I don't have and couldn't use if I did. No "Pencil Caesar "me (for fans of Ian Dury). I can see that part of loco getting weathered,,,

 

I don't have many pictures in colour of BR A8's and those I do show pretty grubby locos. So I am unsure whether I should be lining the boiler bands. If anyone knows...???

 

John,

 

Don't despair, the cab window curves can be done. I don't know how Modelmaster lay out the curves, on their transfer sheet, but the HMRS version contains a number of the standard corners plus various radii of curves both ways around i.e. red on the inside of the curve and red on the outside of the curve. I haven't lined an A8 but I have lined a couple of A6's and the process, around the cab window, was :-

 

The tight curves from straight into the curve around the cut out are cut to less than 90 degrees - I used around 80 degrees at one end and about thirty degrees at the other. This to produce the transition curves from the straight into the larger radius The modified pieces, which are quite tiny, are then placed at each end of the larger radius curve. A piece of the larger radius curve is then cut from a suitable piece on the transfer sheet and is located between the two modified tight curves and then very carefully lined up.

 

All of this cutting and placing is done under a fairly powerful magnifying glass!

 

For lining everything up I use a couple of cocktail sticks very slightly blunted, so as not to scratch the paintwork, one held in each hand.

 

It's not easy to explain so perhaps a couple of photos might help. The second photo shows the bunker lining part completed with the top rhs corner cut back to 80 degrees (from the 90 degress on the sheet) to form the transition into the larger radius. The corresponding lower transition curve (not yet fitted on this photo) is cut to around thirty degrees as stated above.

 

I also had the same quandry on boiler band lining and have only ever seen one photograph of an A6 showing the boiler bands lined. That photo was of 69791 ex-works, clearly with boiler bands lined. So 69796 has no boiler band lining; 69791 does.

 

On a 'well worn' loco, the first part of the livery to become obscured was often the boiler band lining.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 17, 2019 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

Spec on his site, it mentions 3 Diagrams of Boiler.

 

 

https://www.52fmodels.org/a8-loco-kit

 

It does indeed, so I checked with Peter of 52F models.

 

He replied that only the 5' 0" (over cladding) boilers will be supplied in the A8 kit. To include both diameters of boiler, would require different spectacle plates, different tank tops, different castings, etc. so would really require a different kit.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 17, 2019 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

John,

 

I can't find a suitable picture of an A8 to ascertain whether, or not, the boiler bands were lined but here's a 1952 photo of a lined G5. The loco is fairly clean on this photo and appears to have no boiler band lining. So whether the policy varied by class or whether, at this time, no tank locos carried boiler band lining I don't know. It could be a function of which works did the overhaul and repaint?

 

Also worth noting that the lining panels do not follow the cab cut out and the number, on this loco, has been applied very slightly off parallel with the lining.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 17, 2019 by mikemeg

[rowanj]

Well,one side,curves and all, has been done to the A8. I'm not wholly convinced, as the curves at the cab windows are much tighter than anything on the Model master sheet, and tighter than the A6 in Mike's photos. We shall see.

 

I'll not line the boiler bands at this stage,as it will be as easy to add them if evidence arrives as to paint them over.

 

There doesn't seem much consistency in the size of wheel balance weights, so I just used the best photo ow what I had matched to weights in the scrap box. None came with the kit.

 

Photo to follow when the loft thaws out.,(And thanks again, Mike..great to talk to you yesterday, even if by accident !)

[mikemeg]

John,

 

Looked through the A8 pictures that I have. Wouldn't you know that on every one the balance weights are hidden up above the valance! The wheels are a little unusual, though - 5' 9" diameter 20 spoke.

 

On the A8, the cab cut out corner is 9" radius with the lining 'notionally' 5" from the cut out edge. If the lining radius was concentric with the cut out, then those curves would be 14" radius but they are more probably around 18 - 24" radius i.e. 6 - 8 mm radius.

 

Regards

 

Mike

Edited January 17, 2019 by mikemeg

[rowanj]

It does indeed, so I checked with Peter of 52F models.

 

He replied that only the 5' 0" (over cladding) boilers will be supplied in the A8 kit. To include both diameters of boiler, would require different spectacle plates, different tank tops, different castings, etc. so would really require a different kit.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

That's interesting, Mike. I appreciate that the 63C diameter is 3mm smaller, so that would need something done where it meets the tanks and spectacle plate, but is it enough to require a different kit?. I haven't a GA, but there is no evidence in Yeadon that major surgery, or indeed anything other than the tank strap, was needed for a boiler swap.

 

Of course, Peter is a purist, but I'm surprised he couldn't offer a workable solution in a single kit. It also means many prototypes cant be built if they carried 63 or 63A boilers in a particular period.

 

Having said that, if only one boiler type will be supplied, I'm glad it will be a 63C. Will you still have a go at fitting "fatty"?

 

John

Edited January 17, 2019 by rowanj

[mikemeg]

That's interesting, Mike. I appreciate that the 63C diameter is 3mm smaller, so that would need something done where it meets the tanks and spectacle plate, but is it enough to require a different kit?. I haven't a GA, but there is no evidence in Yeadon that major surgery, or indeed anything other than the tank strap, was needed for a boiler swap.

 

Of course, Peter is a purist, but I'm surprised he couldn't offer a workable solution in a single kit. It also means many prototypes cant be built if they carried 63 or 63A boilers in a particular period.

 

Having said that, if only one boiler type will be supplied, I'm glad it will be a 63C. Will you still have a go at fitting "fatty"?

 

John

 

John,

 

This is Peter's reply to my question, summarised. I've added no inferences or comments though he did add that this was due to the way in which the kit has been designed and engineered.

 

On the prototype, though the diameter of the external cladding was 5' 9" (and a bit) on the 63/63A boiler and 5' 0" on the 63B/63C boiler the actual boiler diameter was universally 4' 9". So any boiler - 63/63A/63B/63C, without cladding, would pass through the cab front into the cab without change to the cab front.

 

So his kit, as supplied, will cover the 63B and 63C boilers, which means that it covers much, but not all, of the class though predominantly, in their later British Railways years. I will need to see and build the kit before I can decide whether 'Fatty 69885' is a feasible proposition.

 

As for balance weights, these locos were three cylinder so the balance weights on the driven axle (the front) would be aligned at a point opposite to the mid point between the internal and external reciprocating masses - the big ends - which would be opposed at 120 degrees. But I don't know what they looked like!!

 

I wonder if Mr Gresley's drawing office used the same terminology for the different boiler variants of these locos?

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 18, 2019 by mikemeg