Building kits for Tyneside in the BR era. J24 and PDK D49/2

[grob1234]

Following with interest, John. 

 

Loving the bulk of the Q7

[rowanj]

So far. so good with the Q7. The chassis is more or less complete, with the cylinder block and mechanical lubricator bracket in place. The wheels are W&T from Scalelink.. I was hoping to get 19mm from them, but they seem to have discontinued that size, so 18mm will be used. Prototype wheels are available from Markits and Gibson, of course.

 

The tender has confused me. It is supplied by Dave in the kit as an NER 4125 gall. self-trimming, but does not match the photos I have of a Q7, and certainly not 63469, my chosen prototype The shape of the coal rail on the tender casting, and the whitemetal supports for the etched coal rail, are a giveaway.. I have ordered the relevant Yeadons, and will not do any further work on the tender until I get more info.

 

The tender is supplied with a cast sub-chassis, but I prefer, all things being equal, to run the wheels in pinpoint bearings, so that is what I've done. Being whitemetal, there is already sufficient weight in the tender to render the sub-chassis unnecessary. 52F models produce an etched compensated alternative, and I believe they are also the source of the loco chassis supplied in the kit.  The tender wheels are ex-Hornby, which come with plain axles. I find them awful when I try to reuse the Hornby axle, but they fit nicely when re-fitted onto Romford pinpoints, 

[micklner]

52f only advertise a EM/P4 chassis. I have used their tender chassis on a Alexander tender with excellent results.

 

http://52fmodels.sharepoint.com/Pages/Q7.aspx

 

 

 

 

Maybe the photograph ? you Loco footplate looks like its bending in the middle.

[rowanj]

52f only advertise a EM/P4 chassis. I have used their tender chassis on a Alexander tender with excellent results.

 

http://52fmodels.sharepoint.com/Pages/Q7.aspx

 

 

 

 

Maybe the photograph ? you Loco footplate looks like its bending in the middle.

 

Hi Mick.

 

It was Dave Alexander who mentioned that Peter Stringer of 52F was doing his chassis etches. I understood Peter was planning an 00 version to sell, using his compensation system only if he was aware that there would be a demand for it.

 

I'm pleased/relieved to say that the footplate bend looks to be an optical illusion. I'll keep an eye on it, though, as there is a potential for it to happen around the motor cut out.

 

Thanks

 

John

[RBAGE]

Peter Stanger already produces a Q7 chassis kit for 00 gauge. I believe I was the first customer.

 

The kit goes together very well and the instructions are very comprehensive.

 

The Q7 goes together very well although Dave's instructions are not so detailed as Peter's.

 

You will need to be ware of the loco centre side steps. They are very thick and will need thinning down quite significantly to avoid a foul with the coupling rods. It would be useful if there was s source of etched replacements. Maybe Peter could put them on his chassis etch.

 

Good luck and if I remember any other difficulties I experienced, I'll post more.

 

Bob

[rowanj]

 The cab is now soldered to the footplate. The extended floor was presumably needed due to the extent the spectacle plate and backhead took up the cab interior. The only problem I had was that the floor casting has 2 small cast ridges at one end, and the insstruction makes to reference to them. Do they go at the front or the back? I assumed they were the front, and provided a guide for where the rear pf the spectacle plates fit. I think this was correct, but it meant that, when the boiler was in place, these "ridges" pushed it forward. Some scraping thus ensued.

 

 

Conversely, the design of the kit makes it simple to model the, unusual, 9" recess of the spectacle plate into the cab sides, and made it easy to assemble the cab sides at 90* to the footplate.

 

Thanks for the tip on the footplate steps, Bob. They are terribly thick, aren't they ?

John

[micklner]

52F do a etch of NER steps, Q7 not mentioned on the list, but the Q6 is, a file may rearrange them enough to match the Q7 version and will be much stronger as well.

[rowanj]

The relevant Yeadon arrived , and it answered some questions and raised others,

 

 The tender top obviously needs amending at the rear of the coal rail. an etched overlay supplied should make this a tedious but simple job. I'm not sure why Dave supplied this shape. Q7 tenders didn't have a water scoop, unlike B16's who also got the 4150 gallon self-trimming, though I cant find any examples of B16's with a tender shape like this.

 

The boiler seems to represent the LNER 49A, rather than the earlier NER 49. Both were fitted at various points to Q7's (and B16's) and, as I want my model to be in 1957/8 +, the 49A is more appropriate. However the pre-drilled holes for the safety valve and whistle look to in the wrong place - a little too far forward ? Certainly the whistle is wrong -it should be on the cab front. But the positions marked for washout plugs, etc seem accurate. I don't know if Dave will sell a boiler as a spare, but if so I'll get one for my planned PDK B16/2.

 

Several photos show a maze of lubrication pipes running up the LH side of some, but not all Q7's. They seem to be fitted to both 49 and 49A boilers. Does anyone know the secret of why some them and not others?

 

John

 

[rowanj]

The etched boiler is probably the easiest I've dealt with, thus far. The kit supplies 2, pretty bulky, whitemetal rings which go inside to help keep the boiler "square" when soldering the bottom seam, which has an "underlay" on each bottom edge, to give sufficient bulk for the long soldered joint. Earlier photos show the etches in the boiler where the boiler bands and washout plugs go, This made soldering the bands easier,  I'm quite pleased with how that worked out, though I did chicken out and used superglue on the washout plugs, and used a fair bit of fibreglass pencil.

 

I also made the mod to the tender sides, using the etched coal rail overlay as a template. I now have etches from 52F for NER lamp irons and steps. These are available as spares, and I had the pleasure of visiting Peter Stringer to collect them. He confirmed that he supplied the etched chassis, boiler and cab for Dave Alexander. Along with Arthur Kimber (ArthurK) , you wont find 3 more helpful folk to assist with kit building.

 

Though there is still a fair bit of detailing to do, most of it is, hopefully, pretty straightforward, so I'll turn my attention to the chassis next.

 

John

[rowanj]

I have a query about the Q7 tender. Yeadon states that it was "standard" other than not having a water pick-up arrangements, unlike those fitted to the B16. The kit supplies a casting for a water pickup dome, and other builds seem to have this fitted to their tenders. I cant find a decent top-down photo, though those I have would seem to suggest it wasn't fitted to tenders hauled by Q7's. Yeadon states tender exchanges were only within the class.

 

So should it be there. I suppose it's possible it was fitted but not connected below the tender top?

 

Help appreciated

 

John

[ArthurK]

The 4125 GA that I have dated 1 September 1915 and labelled "Goods & Mineral" shows neither scoop nor dome. It is, of course also missing the scoop handle on the left front.

 

ArthurK

[rowanj]

Thanks, Arthur - that's just the information I needed,

 

I'm always,pleased/relieved when the coupling rods and motor are fitted. The kit provides 3 laminated pieces on each side for the rods. I normally build these rigid, but in this instance have left them as designed by Peter/Dave. I was pleasantly surprised how litt work was needed to open them out to remove tight spots.

 

The motor, a Mitsumi 1420 with Highlevel Compact gearbox fits easily between the frames and allows the motor to sit upright in the firebox, to be almost invisible. There is so much daylight below the boiler that I'm inclined to try to represent the inside valve gear if I can find an appropriate photo. It will be purely cosmetic, to fill the gap.

 

A bit more soldering has taken place on the tender. Why was I scared, for years, of soldering whitemetal? Though the photo doesn't show it, I have fitted the bar where normally a handrail would go. This was an NER practice, and was one of the tips I was given when I fitted handrail knobs in error to my PDK B16.

[RBAGE]

John,

Some time ago, I think you mentioned the pipework which runs the length of the boiler, on the LH side, to a bracket on the smokebox saddle (lubrication, I think). Do you intend to model this?

My Q7 has the loco complete but not painted. I was wondering whether to attempt it. Any ideas?

I've done similar lengths of pipework on a couple of Bachmann WD according to Tim Shackleton's article in MRJ 119, using 5 amp use wire. On the WD there should be 4 pipes but these are reduced to 3 so the pipe run doesn't look overscale.

This wouldn't be an option for the Q7 as the pipe become separate at the bracket.

Does anyone know the diameter of these pipes so I can try to source wire of the correct scale diameter?

Great work so far.

One small piece of advise which might seem obvious to many but it wasn't to me at the time. The slide direction of the piston rod should be exactly in line with the centre of the axle of the wheel linked to the connecting rod. I had some trouble with this alignment. Put a length of brass rod through the holes in the front and back of the cylinders and make sure that the cylinder orientation gives you this alignment before you fix anything solid.

Hope you understand what I mean.

 

Bob

[rowanj]

John,

Some time ago, I think you mentioned the pipework which runs the length of the boiler, on the LH side, to a bracket on the smokebox saddle (lubrication, I think). Do you intend to model this?

My Q7 has the loco complete but not painted. I was wondering whether to attempt it. Any ideas?

I've done similar lengths of pipework on a couple of Bachmann WD according to Tim Shackleton's article in MRJ 119, using 5 amp use wire. On the WD there should be 4 pipes but these are reduced to 3 so the pipe run doesn't look overscale.

This wouldn't be an option for the Q7 as the pipe become separate at the bracket.

Does anyone know the diameter of these pipes so I can try to source wire of the correct scale diameter?

Great work so far.

One small piece of advise which might seem obvious to many but it wasn't to me at the time. The slide direction of the piston rod should be exactly in line with the centre of the axle of the wheel linked to the connecting rod. I had some trouble with this alignment. Put a length of brass rod through the holes in the front and back of the cylinders and make sure that the cylinder orientation gives you this alignment before you fix anything solid.

Hope you understand what I mean.

 

Bob

 

Hi Rob

 

I got a reply about that pipework. Apparently they are Detroit regulators, and were fitted to the 10 later locos built by the LNER - the original 5 don't have them, As luck would have it, my model is an earlier loco, simply because there are good pictures of both sides in Yeadon at the same time period. 63464

 

The chassis kit provides the relevant piece of brass to support the coupling rod. I was wondering if it was worth bothering with, but I'm not now. Thanks for the tip

[rowanj]

I'm not sure whether this kit always had an etched boiler, or was originally whitemetal. The instructions suggest the boiler is screwed to the footplate, rather than soldered/glued, which seems a good idea in principle, to allow for repairs/mods etc. However the whitemetal ring which sits at the smokebox front, and prides both strength and the base for the smokebox door, blocks the pre-drilled hole in the boiler bottom. It would be possible, of course, to drill through and solder the brass nut to the whitemetal, but I foresaw problems if the nut ever became dislodged. it is also one the chassis fixing points, so would see a great deal of action.

 

I decided to solder the brass nut to the boiler bottom and countersink the hole in the smokebox saddle. The photos should be self explanatory. even with a friction fit, the boiler sits tight to the footplate.

 

I also started to solder the handrail knobs. The handrails will be bent in 2 sides, joined at the knob on the smokebox top which also holds the NER lamp iron. This is easier than trying to fit the handrail in 1 piece, though I recall reading a comment that someone (was it Daddyman) could do the 2 stages in 10 minutes. Believe me, it takes me longer...!!!

 

I was planning to star the cylinders and brake gear, but as I'm off in the caravan for September, and don't want to leave that particular job half- finished, I'll concentrate over the next few days on loco and tender details.

 

John

[rowanj]

This is the state of play before the Works closes for September. The boiler is virtually finished, bar the smokebox door, and the tender is done other than the usual filling and filing. The footplate needs steps, buffers, lifting holes drilled, and the cab roof soldered in and cab roof "furniture" fitted. In addition, I'm going to have a go at the rods to the sandbox filler and lubricator on my return. The rear sandboxes will be fitted to the chassis.

 

 

 

 

[Horsetan]

Looks alright from here.

 

Not sure what digital camera you're using but the lens is making the model appear slightly distorted; it looks like the top of the smokebox door and ring / front are leaning forward.

[rowanj]

Looks alright from here.

 

Not sure what digital camera you're using but the lens is making the model appear slightly distorted; it looks like the top of the smokebox door and ring / front are leaning forward.

 

Digital camera ?? Its just my Pay-as-you-go phone !!

 

The smokebox is askew, true, or rather, it was. It's just force fitted into the whitemetal ring at this stage until the dart and numberplate are fitted. 

 

I meant to post, along with the photos, the dreaded warning for anyone looking at building a Q7 to find a decent photo, preferably of both sides of the loco. Of the 15-strong class, no two seemed to be the same in the manner of boiler fittings,. The wire run on the LH smokebox is a decent copy of the photo of 63464 in Yeadon, but I cant see another as "wiggly" as that. 

 

John

Edited September 1, 2017 by rowanj

[46256]

John coming together nicely always a pleasure to see your work best wishes brian

[mikemeg]

This may be a function of the camera you are using but, in the photo sequence above, the penultimate photo seems to show the motion plate being bent. I know that digital photography can be very cruel but it can also be a modeller's best friend, for it highlights any discrepancies, however small, and serves to show any slight differences in levels (i.e. loco footplate and tender footplate ride height), in tightness of fit of one assembly to another, in perpendicularity and a host of other aspects of the build.

 

In my experience of loco building, admittedly limited, digital photos are excellent 'quality control' devices and should be used to detemine what is not quite right and needs to be adjusted.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Have a very good sojourn in your caravan in France.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited September 1, 2017 by mikemeg

[rowanj]

This may be a function of the camera you are using but, in the photo sequence above, the penultimate photo seems to show the motion plate being bent. I know that digital photography can be very cruel but it can also be a modeller's best friend, for it highlights any discrepancies, however small, and serves to show any slight differences in levels (i.e. loco footplate and tender footplate ride height), in tightness of fit of one assembly to another, in perpendicularity and a host of other aspects of the build.

 

In my experience of loco building, admittedly limited, digital photos are excellent 'quality control' devices and should be used to detemine what is not quite right and needs to be adjusted.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Have a very good sojourn in your caravan in France.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

Sound advice as always, Mike. In this case, I'm delighted to say that the bend is an optical illusion.

 

I have to admit to having no interest in taking photos, so a digital camera is not on the agenda. However, Mrs rowanj wants a new on for her upcoming birthday, so she may allow me to borrow it.

 

I recall you were testing an ArthurK Q7 some time ago. Did you get as far as fitting the rods to the front sandboxes and lubricators, and if so, do you have a photo? the footplate looks bare on my model without them.

 

Best wishes as always

 

John

[mikemeg]

Sound advice as always, Mike. In this case, I'm delighted to say that the bend is an optical illusion.

 

I have to admit to having no interest in taking photos, so a digital camera is not on the agenda. However, Mrs rowanj wants a new on for her upcoming birthday, so she may allow me to borrow it.

 

I recall you were testing an ArthurK Q7 some time ago. Did you get as far as fitting the rods to the front sandboxes and lubricators, and if so, do you have a photo? the footplate looks bare on my model without them.

 

Best wishes as always

 

John

 

John,

 

No, I didn't get as far as fitting the rods to the front sandboxes on Arthur's Q7. There are still some castings which need to be done for this model (which Arthur has on his agenda to provide) particularly for the internal motion. There is so much daylight under the Q7 boiler that it really does need at least some semblance of the internal motion - three sets of Stephenson valve gear plus the slide bars, crosshead and connecting rod for the middle cylinder - to fill up the void between the mainframes.

 

One thing to watch on the Q7 is the inclination of the outside cylinders, given that the drive is to the second axle. The extrapolation of the centre line of the outside cylinder should pass through the centre of the axle of the driven wheelset; which can be estabished by placing a piece of brass or n/silver rod into the cylinder and then checking that it passes across the centre of the driven axle.  Similarly, the motion plate is also inclined at the same angle, though to the vertical. Any failure to get these angles correct really does shout out, especially when photographed!!

 

PS If Mrs Rowanj is to acquire a digital camera, for her birthday, then try to ensure that she acquires one with the macro mode option. This mode allows photos to be correctly focused down to distances of around nine inches from the subject and makes a hell of a difference to the sharpness of the photograph.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[drmditch]

The control rods for the front sandboxes differ between the NER and LNER built engines. It took me some time to work them out. No.901 in Darlington Head of Steam museum will help. I think you are building one of the first five?

[RBAGE]

John,

I have an issue with the wash out plugs (or maybe they are mud hole covers) that are supplied by Dave, for the Q7.

I suppose it's possible that the ones supplied may have been the type fitted to the prototype at some dim and distant time but, try as I might, I cannot find this type fitted in any photographs that are readily available. I certainly don't remember seeing them in Yeadon's.

Anyhow, to make mine look a little more like a latter day Q7, I drilled the part supplied, soldered a bit of brass wire in the hole and fitted the assembly back to front (if you see what I mean).

I think the fitted part still looks too big but it's better than Dave's intended fitting.

It may have been better if I had filled and flatted the recess and fitted a scratch build part but that sort of thing generally ends in disaster when it comes to my models.

[RBAGE]

If you see what I mean?