Building kits for Tyneside in the BR era. J24 and PDK D49/2

[Bucoops]

I've yet to build a tender - but does the spacer version fit inside and the folded version fit outside the wheels - i.e. you need both? The kit I have uses this method. I suspect not but worth a thought? 

 

edit: nope - ignore me - the fold up one looks nothing like the outside frames

Edited December 12, 2017 by Bucoops

[Jol Wilkinson]

John,

 

George modelled in EM gauge, but I don't think that explains the tender underframe options.

 

I think the kit may have been originally reduced from 7mm artwork. The fold up u/f may have been for that and the separate side frames/spacers provided for OO.

 

The GOG B2B for O Finescale is 29.0mm, which is 16.57 in OO speak. DOGA Finescale B2B is 14.8mm, so you would need narrower frames for OO in proportion to O.

 

I am surprised by the loco footplate wheel clearance. Perhaps an email to LRM through the website might help.

 

Jol

[rowanj]

John,

 

George modelled in EM gauge, but I don't think that explains the tender underframe options.

 

I think the kit may have been originally reduced from 7mm artwork. The fold up u/f may have been for that and the separate side frames/spacers provided for OO.

 

 

 

Jol.

 

I think its just "one of those things" - a consequence of an older kit produced from scaled-down O Gauge.

 

The instructions which talk about the sub-chassis, funnily enough, say that the fold-up has the virtue of simplicity though is almost impossible to build compensated - True. But it then goes on to say that it may ne too narrow for EM or P4. Ironic.

 

It's still proving to be an enjoyable build.

 

John

[mikemeg]

Jol.

 

I think its just "one of those things" - a consequence of an older kit produced from scaled-down O Gauge.

 

The instructions which talk about the sub-chassis, funnily enough, say that the fold-up has the virtue of simplicity though is almost impossible to build compensated - True. But it then goes on to say that it may ne too narrow for EM or P4. Ironic.

 

It's still proving to be an enjoyable build.

 

John

 

John,

 

I guess that all kit designers share one thing (at least one) in common - they are human.

 

In so being then, with the best will in the world, they can and will make mistakes. A thorough test build (by someone other than the kit designer) will often identify and help resolve most of the issues but even then, some things slip through.

 

It is for this reason, as you are discovering on this build, that things need to be checked before fixing. Checked for fit, checked for alignment, checked for facility of assembly, etc.

 

Regards

 

Mike

Edited December 12, 2017 by mikemeg

[rowanj]

The J21 and J25 kits obviously share many common parts, but the cab and splashers are different. There seems to be a complete etch with these parts missing, so an e.mail has gone to LRM.

 

In the meantime, the footplate valances, buffer beam and drawbar are in place. Without the cab I cant progress the loco, so will turn my attention to completing the chassis and tender. It doesn't look as though a cab floor or seats are included, so I'll remove the material on the footplate fouling the rear wheels of the loco and fabricate a floor and seats, which were only really boxes ,after the cab etch arrives.

[Michael Edge]

George Norton once spent quite a long time at an exhibition trying to put one of his locos on my Cwmafon layout. After a while we gently pointed out to him that Cwmafon was (and still is) 00 gauge.....

I've built quite a lot of his kits over the years, mostly for 00 gauge and they do go together very well.

[rowanj]

I've yet to build a tender - but does the spacer version fit inside and the folded version fit outside the wheels - i.e. you need both? The kit I have uses this method. I suspect not but worth a thought? 

 

edit: nope - ignore me - the fold up one looks nothing like the outside frames

 

Hi Rich. The assembly of this tender is, if I remember correctly, the same as your Jamieson kit - i.e  an inside sub-chassis with dummy outside frames.

 

The tender sides and drawbar, etc, went together o.k . The rear plate fits into an etched slot, which needed a fair bit of cleaning up, but after that, you are on your own.

 

I do suggest a start is made to the tender at the same time as the loco to ensure the relationship between the two is satisfactory.

[Bucoops]

It has crossed my mind that I probably need to get the tender underway

[Jol Wilkinson]

The LRM NER G1/LNER D23 4-4-0 uses the same 3038 gallon tender. I've taken a couple of photos of the version I am just finishing off for my G1. 

 

The underneath photo shows the hornblocks and compensating beam as this is for P4. The underframe was assembled using the supplied P4 spacers, I don't recall a fold up option being supplied in the kit (I'll look in the box when I next brave the weather t go upto the workshop. The paint is airbrushed gloss cellulose, final finish will be Ronseal gloss varnish, with PPP matting agent and a 5 -10% black, as per Ian Rathbone's excellent book. Coal (real) will then be added using PVA mixed with black poster paint.

 

 

 

 

[rowanj]

Thanks Jol. The pictures are useful. attached are photos of my OO version. I'm afraid mine will be plain black. The carcass of the tender is well underway, too, and the relationship with the loco looks ok.

 

Though rarely mentioned in kit instructions, I was tipped off by Arthur Kimber that the handrail on the tender rear is just a bar, rather than the normal handrail knobs, on NER tenders. The rear set have been soldered , as it would be difficult to get the iron into the body once the tender top is fixed. I'll leave the front pair for now until the soldering at that end is completed.

 

The last J21 looked not unlike the kit when I saw it this morning at Shildon... very shabby. No handrails, cab or boiler fittings. but at least it still exists.

Edited December 15, 2017 by rowanj

[Bucoops]

I'm not an NER man but the pseudo rails on that first tender I've always found strange looking!

[Jol Wilkinson]

John,

 

from the photos of the tender, it looks as though the coal space surround is upside down.

 

Jol

[rowanj]

Jol

That error has been corrected. Do you have a picture of the front of the tender?

 

John

[Jol Wilkinson]

Jol

That error has been corrected. Do you have a picture of the front of the tender?

 

John

Not to hand, John.

 

As it is 1 degree and raining I won't be going up to the workshop today, but might be able to take one tomorrow.

 

It was my first build of a NER tender and I just followed the instructions and drawings. I can't recall if the few publications on the NER had much info or photos of the front of the 3038 gallon tender.

 

Jol

[mikemeg]

John,

 

A photograph of the front of a NER 3038 gallon tender. Please note that the two standards are castings within Arthur's kit though their mounting plates were scratch built. The tap on the right hand side is not a casting; that is scratch built just to complete the tender front.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited December 18, 2017 by mikemeg

[rowanj]

Thank you, Mike - that was exactly what I wanted. The coal plate is missing from the kit and the instructions tell you to use a piece of etch. I wasn't sure about the height so that's now clear. I've also scored the etch to represent the wooden planks. It's small details like this which set off a model.

 

The tap is a lovely touch on your model. I may well have a bash at one myself.

 

Brakes have been fitted to the loco chassis and it has been painted and the wheels refitted. A couple of extra spacers added some strength. The coupling rods are next.

 

I have decided, after this build, to stop posting progress. All kits have so much in common in terms of construction that I'd just be unnecessarily repeating myself. In the event that I come across an unusual kit or a particular problem, then I'll revisit in the hope of both sharing my solution or getting help if I don't have a solution!!

 

 

John

Edited December 18, 2017 by rowanj

[Jol Wilkinson]

Mike has beaten me to it, just as I was up in the workshop taking a photo.

 

 

Note that this LRM kit one has four "planks" in the coal space door, only one "standard" and no tap.

[rowanj]

Thanks, Jol. That was the part missing, with suitable apologies, from the kit. Mine does have 2 standards, however.

 

I did John/LRM a disservice when I thought I was going to have an empty cab. The seating is there, but referred to,correctly I think, as rear splashers. There is also an etched floor, but this will cause the same issues with the rear wheels. In any event, as I want to try to replicate the planked cab floor,I'm inclined to use plasticard suitably scribed.

What I can't see is the prominent wooden shelf under each cab window. This should be an easy scratch build.

 

I am going to support the British economy with an N8/9. At some point I'm hoping for Arthur to let me have an N10

John

Edited December 18, 2017 by rowanj

[ArthurK]

Thanks, Jol. That was the part missing, with suitable apologies, from the kit. Mine does have 2 standards, however.

 

I did John/LRM a disservice when I thought I was going to have an empty cab. The seating is there, but referred to,correctly I think, as rear splashers. There is also an etched floor, but this will cause the same issues with the rear wheels. In any event, as I want to try to replicate the planked cab floor,I'm inclined to use plasticard suitably scribed.

What I can't see is the prominent wooden shelf under each cab window. This should be an easy scratch build.

 

I am going to support the British economy with an N8/9. At some point I'm hoping for Arthur to let me have an N10

John

 

The NER 3038 gallon tender had several differences depending on its proposed use. On engines used purely for goods  the water pick up gear was usually removed (it it was ever there). In these cases the second standard, that on the right in Mikes photos above was not present. I think that mike has erred here. No J24 or J25 would have this in late LNER or BR days. Tenders which did have water pick-up also sported tank vents either side roughly half way along the tank well (the sloping bit).

 

The Shelves were about 12" (4mm) below the bottom of the cab windows. Note that the one on the right was much shorter than that one the left. They were supported by brackets fixed to the cab sides.

The photos below show the cab layout for the preserved J21. The cabs of the J21/24/25 are all very similar but of course all the equipment for passenger operation was not present on the goods engines. 

 

ArthurK

Edited December 18, 2017 by ArthurK

[PenrithBeacon]

Why were the tenders equipped with a tap?

 

Regards

[mikemeg]

On engines used purely for goods  the water pick up gear was usually removed (it it was ever there). In these cases the second standard, that on the right in Mikes photos above was not present. I think that mike has erred here. No J24 or J25 would have this in late LNER or BR days.

 

ArthurK

 

Arthur,

 

Mike certainly did err here!! Thanks for pointing this out.

 

So to spare this loco (J24 or J25) the indignity of being rostered on long distance, high speed unfitted freights in the mistaken belief that its water capacity was almost inexhaustible - able to be replenished on the move - only for it to fail to achieve the necessary speed, haulage capacity or range, nor to offer the crew suitable cab amenities for long distance journeys, the tender has now been modified by the removal of the extraneous water scoop standard.

 

Now the loco (J24 or J25) is restricted to its more usual jobs of trip and pick up freights with the odd longer trip to Goole!

 

One of the skills (if skill it be) I've had to learn is that of 'invisible mending' i.e. removing bits 'without trace'. Hopefully no trace remains!!

 

And that left hand side bottom step, so obviously out of line on the photograph, has been adjusted back to horizontal - benefits of digital photography!! The continuation of the brake standard rod, below the tender footplate, with the operating arm to the front brake trunnion also needs to be fitted.

 

Now, about that tap!!!!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited December 19, 2017 by mikemeg

[rowanj]

Mike and Jol's' models continue to be an influence, for which I thank them. Here are photos of my efforts on the J25 tender. As usual, they reveal issues which will need some mending, invisible if possible. .The tender body is just perched on the chassis, which accounts for the uneven look at the front end.

 

The brake standard is actually missing from the kit - you are told to build it up from the wire provided, so this is what I did. To give it a bit of shape, I threaded some insulation from electric cable over the wire to represent some plumbing glands. The photo shows something odd at the bracket which I need to investigate

 

I think the tender ahead of the coal hole was planked, so ​I cut a thin piece of plasticard, scored it, and fitted it in place, held down by the protruding handrail knobs .If I subsequently find it was metal, I'll be able to remove it if I decide to bother.

 

A tag is provided to join the tender and loco, but I prefer a hook and bar. I'm sure the LRM method works perfectly well, but my system, pinched from Tony Wright, is a bit simpler to adjust for curves or uneven track.

 

I added a bit of weight to the tender, using the sort of lead sold for decorative windows.. I has a sticky side, but I added epoxy glue, as it will be almost impossible to get at any which comes loose once the tender top is sealed ready for coal to be added.

 

As can be seen, on this one, the relative height of loco and tender looks about right. I soldered up one side of the coupling rods and will finish the other side and refit the motor to get a running chassis before tackling the loco body any further, just in case there are any shorting issues

Edited December 20, 2017 by rowanj

[rowanj]

Not much time for modelling, but I do have a running chassis, albeit with a missing brake and motor currently wired the wrong way round. Photos will follow in due course, but in the meantime, best wishes for Christmas to anyone who reads this.

 

John

[46256]

Merry Christmas John....best wishes Brian

[rowanj]

My phone camera just isn't good enough to get a picture of the cab interior, though may be better when the cab is primed, and there is less glare. I managed to fabricate the reversing and sanding lever, using Mike's photos as a guide, and also built a couple of shelves. The cab floor will be scribed plasticard, I spotted some diamond etch in the spares box, and fitted that as a fall-plate between loco and tender, though I doubt it is prototypical.

 

On the photo I did manage to take, the cab roof and boiler are just lying loose, though the cab roof has since been fixed. The only major work left is the boiler and splashers. There are no boiler bands in the kit, as far as I can see, so I'll probably use electricians tape. There is a pre-drilled hole for the chimney, but nothing for the dome, safety valves or whistle, so they will need scribed and drilled.

 

I know that this is an old kit, but as far as I am concerned, it will produce a very acceptable model. The instructions are very comprehensive,  - 12 pages or so including diagrams.One downside, which I hadn't come across before, is that many of the smaller parts are spread across the etches, This has made finding them and then removing them from the etch a bit tricky. Not a complaint - just an observation.

 

John

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